Value of: Make a Trade with Pittsburgh

[Toby Flenderson]

Kessel to NJ for Nashville second.
If he is on their trade list and it is only an eight team trade list we have to assume that not all those teams want him or those teams may have cap issues as well. It could be down to 2-3 teams bidding and it all depends on who his willing to give up enough to make sense for that certain teams direction at this time.
If Pittsburgh is desperate to move up they might just bite at the second and if not negotiate from there.

Counter: Hall for 21 OA

 

[Puckclektr]

Counter: Hall for 21 OA

Normally those counters work to prove a point when someone gives a bad proposal. IF the pens didn’t have a cap issue and weren’t open about trying to get rid of a contract then a 2nd for Kessel would be a terrible proposal. I agree.
But if they are wanting to trade Kessel unfortunately this is the dilemma they are in. Depending on how many of the 8 teams are interested and how much bluffing is going on he could get a first and a prospect. But you start a second. If you don’t take it then you don’t take it and try to battle with the numerous other teams who are currently struggling to get rid of contracts.

 

[Toby Flenderson]

Normally those counters work to prove a point when someone gives a bad proposal. IF the pens didn’t have a cap issue and weren’t open about trying to get rid of a contract then a 2nd for Kessel would be a terrible proposal. I agree.
But if they are wanting to trade Kessel unfortunately this is the dilemma they are in. Depending on how many of the 8 teams are interested and how much bluffing is going on he could get a first and a prospect. But you start a second. If you don’t take it then you don’t take it and try to battle with the numerous other teams who are currently struggling to get rid of contracts.

The trade that would have happened if Kessel waives was Zucker. NJ can go ahead and offer a mid 2nd for Kessel all they want but you’ll get laughed at and probably blocked by JR.

Only way Kessel ends up in NJ is through a 3 way trade where a solid top 6 forward comes to Pitt. Or if Hall indicates he won’t re-sign and they work out a bigger deal of Kessel+ for Hall

 

[Puckclektr]

The trade that would have happened if Kessel waives was Zucker. NJ can go ahead and offer a mid 2nd for Kessel all they want but you’ll get laughed at and probably blocked by JR.

Only way Kessel ends up in NJ is through a 3 way trade where a solid top 6 forward comes to Pitt. Or if Hall indicates he won’t re-sign and they work out a bigger deal of Kessel+ for Hall

And my point is that he vetoed that trade. Zucker at the time was the best they could’ve got for him(or they would’ve took the better trade).
Then they look at the jersey offer of Nashville 2nd and say ok give us Boston second as well.
Shero can walk away and say well “I know zucker was the best player you could get and he isn’t worth much more than a second” or could offer a third. They can negotiate back and forth. But my point is when the he knows best you can get for Kessel is zucker why would you offer more when he may take less. Therefore you start with a second.

 

[Toby Flenderson]

And my point is that he vetoed that trade. Zucker at the time was the best they could’ve got for him(or they would’ve took the better trade).
Then they look at the jersey offer of Nashville 2nd and say ok give us Boston second as well.
Shero can walk away and say well “I know zucker was the best player you could get and he isn’t worth much more than a second” or could offer a third. They can negotiate back and forth. But my point is when the he knows best you can get for Kessel is zucker why would you offer more when he may take less. Therefore you start with a second.

Ok but Zucker >>> a 2nd

It would be insulting to offer only a 2nd and you’d likely not get a call back

 

[Puckclektr]

Ok but Zucker >>> a 2nd

It would be insulting to offer only a 2nd and you’d likely not get a call back

Of course he is worth more than a second. But other teams have an advantage as they now know what the best offer was. A fair trade would probably be Nashville and Boston’s 2nd or NJ 2nd and a third, but when negotiating you always start low. But there is probably bluffing involved. NJ is going to try to give up less than Pittsburgh wants and Pittsburgh is going to want more than no is offering. The difference is....how desperate is Pittsburgh to move that contract? Especially knowing that their hands are tied because of reasons I mentioned in prior posts. And how much would shero want to give up for Kessel knowing that their top need is a first pairing defenseman?

 

[Toby Flenderson]

Of course he is worth more than a second. But other teams have an advantage as they now know what the best offer was. A fair trade would probably be Nashville and Boston’s 2nd or NJ 2nd and a third, but when negotiating you always start low. But there is probably bluffing involved. NJ is going to try to give up less than Pittsburgh wants and Pittsburgh is going to want more than no is offering. The difference is....how desperate is Pittsburgh to move that contract? Especially knowing that their hands are tied because of reasons I mentioned in prior posts. And how much would shero want to give up for Kessel knowing that their top need is a first pairing defenseman?

Your reasons are flawed. The Pens hands are not tied. We don’t have to trade him at all, any reason as to why we “have” to deal him is flat out wrong. If we don’t get a fair offer, Kessel stays. If he doesn’t want to be here, he’ll amend his trade list or waive to sons place.

The most recent report is that Kessel wants to stay and that JR isn’t shopping him, so really teams have no leverage at all. If they want him, full price.

If NJ’s biggest need is a defenseman then why are you even offering anything for Kessel. Go lowball someone else for their D-man

 

[Puckclektr]

Your reasons are flawed. The Pens hands are not tied. We don’t have to trade him at all, any reason as to why we “have” to deal him is flat out wrong. If we don’t get a fair offer, Kessel stays. If he doesn’t want to be here, he’ll amend his trade list or waive to sons place.

The most recent report is that Kessel wants to stay and that JR isn’t shopping him, so really teams have no leverage at all. If they want him, full price.

If NJ’s biggest need is a defenseman then why are you even offering anything for Kessel. Go lowball someone else for their D-man

Their second biggest need is a winger. I saw the latest report as to them not moving him. But how many times have we heard that and then a trade.
My point still stands IMO. We will agree to disagree.
If Pittsburgh is willing to trade Kessel for zucker and shero offers a second, I guarantee Rutherford doesn’t hang up. My money is on he is willing to listen and negotiate.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Would love Kessel on the Island. In a different divison I wonder how a Leddy for Kessel deal would shape up.

I don't care about the division. YES.

 

[ChaosAgent]

How long is he going for? And as a dump...is there anything you would surrender to be rid of him?

Probably like a 2nd. If you like goalie prospects with some starting upside, we got Tristan Jarry too.

 

[domaug]

Kessel to NJ for Nashville second.
If he is on their trade list and it is only an eight team trade list we have to assume that not all those teams want him or those teams may have cap issues as well. It could be down to 2-3 teams bidding and it all depends on who his willing to give up enough to make sense for that certain teams direction at this time.
If Pittsburgh is desperate to move up they might just bite at the second and if not negotiate from there.

nah, Devils can pound sand.

I'm gonna want significantly more than a 2nd to move a PPG winger to a heated rival.

 

[domaug]

There are many factors that affect the value of a player. Not just his PPG.
Is he worth more than a second. Absolutely. But he was also worth a hell of a lot more than what Pittsburgh paid for him.
At the time he was traded from Toronto there wasn’t many teams that could afford his contract or where willing to take on that type of player.
Of the 8 teams he named on his list. How many have no cap room and can’t afford him? How many are rebuilding and don’t want him as it doesn’t fit their current needs? How many just don’t have the assets or are not compatible with Pittsburgh when it comes to swapping assets? Is he a PPG player without a power play that consists of two of the best offensive players in the league? What about if doesn’t play on a line with a Malkin or Crosby caliber player? What if he is traded to a team like Minnesota for example and he isn’t player with an elite player? Or NJ where maybe playing with a rookie in Hughes?
If Pittsburgh is desperate to get rid of a contract his value might not be what we think it is. He is still only 31 which is normally when players leave their prime.
Rutherford has said that Kessel isn’t likely to be traded probably because of the reasons that I have listed. But if they ended up desperate to trade him I am not saying he is worth a second. NJ would have to add more but I am sure that’s what they would start with when negotiating like I explained in my original post.

I'd rather keep Kessel and risk his beef with Sully worsening than gift him to the Devils for a late 2nd (even if it's in a package, because that 2nd is probably going to be the headliner and it will be horrendous value). easily.

 

[Cogburn]

Probably like a 2nd. If you like goalie prospects with some starting upside, we got Tristan Jarry too.

We have Demko and DiPietro, the second appeals to me though...but one of your fellow Penguins fans said your second round picks are dried up for a few years. Are there any forward prospects that could be made available though? Even with a small consideration on our side if need be.

 

[Peat]

Kessel to NJ for Nashville second.
If he is on their trade list and it is only an eight team trade list we have to assume that not all those teams want him or those teams may have cap issues as well. It could be down to 2-3 teams bidding and it all depends on who his willing to give up enough to make sense for that certain teams direction at this time.
If Pittsburgh is desperate to move up they might just bite at the second and if not negotiate from there.

Judging from Rutherford's most recent comments, the Pens aren't desperate enough to do this/haven't given up with the idea of trying to get Kessel to take the Minnesota trade after all.

We have Demko and DiPietro, the second appeals to me though...but one of your fellow Penguins fans said your second round picks are dried up for a few years. Are there any forward prospects that could be made available though? Even with a small consideration on our side if need be.

We have a wide array of forward prospects shaping up to be middle sixers; I'd be happy adding one if you're happy with that level of player. What sort of prospect would you guys want?

 

[Son Goku]

Normally moving a 100 point 23 year for two players north of 30 isn't a recipe for success. Especially ones that has as many questions as Letang and Kessel.

Letang is a beast when healthy and on his game. But he's also a guy that has had major health scares, and as recently as last season had Pittsburgh fans ready to run him out of town for his play (and that was a "healthy" season).

And considering how temperamental Kessel is, I'm not sure a fish bowl like Edmonton is the best spot for him. I mean there's a reason Pittsburgh is ready to move on, even after he put up a ppg.

If this was a trade built around the 8th, or even Nurse/Klefbom/RNH, then sure; but Draisaitl's not a name that should be anywhere near this conversation.

This just isnt true. Letang would have been a Norris finalist if he didn't miss the last 15 or 20. He was absolutely tremendous last season.

 

[Cogburn]

We have a wide array of forward prospects shaping up to be middle sixers; I'd be happy adding one if you're happy with that level of player. What sort of prospect would you guys want?

I mean the second would still be the preferred piece, but an equivalent (or better of course) forward or RHD prospect would be what we would be spending the pick on anyway. The most value we can get for eating an unwanted contract.