Post-Game Talk: Major Leadership, Character, Coaching issues in Calgary

[Jihadi Flames Fan]

I was listening on Sportsnet and they were talking about how the Flames are lacking leadership and character, both on the ice and behind the bench. Not enough guys who care about or know what it takes to win. Fair assessment?

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[FerklundCGY]

It seems the only thing Treliving cares about when signing/trading for players is Character/Leadership qualities.

Maybe we have too much?

For as big a "character issue" Evander Kane is, I'm sure we could happily use a player of his caliber. Instead, he's killing it so far in San Jose and seems to be loved by his new teammates

 

[Body Checker]

Definitely a fair question. Sounds like Hartley was chased out by the players. Looks like they’ve given up on Gulutzan. If he gets the axe it falls on them and Treliving (put the group together); Gulutzan is their last mulligan.

And to me making the playoffs and going out in the 1st round next year won’t necessarily be progress. Depends how it happens.

And missing the playoffs next year? Well get rid of Treliving and bring in someone to do a proper rebuild. And break up the core.

 

[Anglesmith]

It's a fair question, but it's worth noting that Hockey Central guys are basically like a group of us getting together to talk hockey. They're just hockey fans who are paid to talk a lot about teams they may not know a lot about.

However, from an outsider perspective I think it's something that would always come up when things aren't going well.

In terms of leadership, I have no complaints about Gio as an on ice captain. We obviously have no idea how he is off the ice.

 

[Mobiandi]

The guys on the panel have literally 0 connections to the Flames except for maybe Friedman, but he's hardly a bastion of reliability these days.

When you listen to Cory Sarich's comments about Stajan, how other players look up to Gio, and also Tkachuk who comes ready to play every night, I'm sure we have no shortage of leaders. I do think that management and coaching don't hold players accountable and complacency does set in very quickly with lines and such but that's not a leadership issue

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

just hyperbolic vitriol from Connor McDavid fanboys.

League parity has never been higher. Shooting/save percentages are everything and have very little to do with leadership and more to do with speed, skill, and perhaps coaching details.

Look no further than the Avalanche. 30th in shooting percentage last year. Set NHL record for fewest points. 2nd in shooting percentage this year. Looking to make playoffs Did they add leaders? No. Did they shuffle out dead weight vets and bring in skilled youth and simultaneously see an uptick in luck factors? Probably. Did they trade away their fake #1C to allow their actual #1C to blossom? Regardless of that answer it wasn't leadership.

I'm not saying there are not mental, detail-oriented, or strategic factors at play affecting overall performance but it is pretty silly to talk abot games where you outchance a team something like 20-5 and say that a lack of leadership was why you couldn't score or let in four goals. Maybe you couldn't score because you couldn't score. Maybe you let in goals because they should have been routine saves.

No I am not saying that chance differentials excuse the little slide but I am saying that when you play a system (i.e. buy in to what a coah is selling) and no results are being produced.....

well it sucks for everyone. Fans and players alike. It's not poor character. We've seen it up north. Hall, Dubnyk, Cogliano, Petry, Schultz, Eberle, Pouliot. Talented scapegoats who found new life elsewhere. Now the Flames were never that bad but player assessment should be based on talent not who speaks up vocally in the locker room against more talented teammates and parlays that bs into a four year contract and proceeds to mail it in (not that the talent was ever there).

And if that player does mail it, you waive him instead of waiving your hardest working fastest most lovable Paul Byron.

 

[SKRusty]

WTH??? You guys are swallowing the Kool-aid Francis is selling. Get real.

The leadership is fine. Monahan has been injured since January. He has like 4 goals since. Chucky has been out for the last couple weeks. Smith is injured and is not the same Mike Smith but because Ritter and Gilles were struggling to compete he came back to try and drive the bus home.. Oh no it didn't work.

10 games in a row with over 40 shots. The Flames are top 10 in Fenwick and CORSI. Unlike Johnny's first year the possession numbers are great there are no underlying numbers predicting failure mving forward.

It hasn't been the season they or we planned for.. Look at the promise in the numbers. Heck half the lineup is under 25... Their prime is still 2-3 years away. The sky is not falling.

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

It’s just our coach. We need someone who isn’t afraid to sit useless players like Brouwer to send a message.

Gulutzan was like a kid in a candy store around crusty vets. It just makes no sense. Mangiapane on the 4th line for example?

Why the hell is he putting the only productive scoring forward we had in the AHL there? What did he have to lose? A game? A couple of vets phone numbers? His job? Oh wait...

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

I don’t think we have leadership issues, but it’s clear to me the players are done playing for this coach. The message is clear.

 

[DFF]

Our top players a softies both physically and mentally: Monahan, Brodie, Hamilton to be specific.

The former is 6'4 but playing smaller than his 5.4 winger

The later 2 makes too many mental mistakes

 

[DFF]

WTH??? You guys are swallowing the Kool-aid Francis is selling. Get real.

The leadership is fine. Monahan has been injured since January. He has like 4 goals since. Chucky has been out for the last couple weeks. Smith is injured and is not the same Mike Smith but because Ritter and Gilles were struggling to compete he came back to try and drive the bus home.. Oh no it didn't work.

10 games in a row with over 40 shots. The Flames are top 10 in Fenwick and CORSI. Unlike Johnny's first year the possession numbers are great there are no underlying numbers predicting failure mving forward.

It hasn't been the season they or we planned for.. Look at the promise in the numbers. Heck half the lineup is under 25... Their prime is still 2-3 years away. The sky is not falling.

Thanks for your input Brad


A little advice though, you cant fix the problem unless you admit to have one.

 

[Anglesmith]

I don’t think we have leadership issues, but it’s clear to me the players are done playing for this coach. The message is clear.

I don't think that's true. They keep putting up tons of shots and trying to compete. I feel like if they had given up, they wouldn't be dominating possession like they are.

There is just a problem getting goals out of their possession that they haven't been able to solve this year.

 

[SKRusty]

Thanks for your input Brad


A little advice though, you cant fix the problem unless you admit to have one.

Or you can act like an Oiler fan every year demanding changes. Unlike the management group up North Calgary's management team doesn't make knee jerk reactions that have the team in a constant rebuild cycle.

The only real issue that needs to be looked at in Calgary is to get a Championship coach for our championship team. A coach that doesn't need to throw tantrums.

When did you ever see Quenneville or Trotz behave like a two year old?

 

[DFF]

Or you can act like an Oiler fan every year demanding changes. Unlike the management group up North Calgary's management team doesn't make knee jerk reactions that have the team in a constant rebuild cycle.

The only real issue that needs to be looked at in Calgary is to get a Championship coach for our championship team. A coach that doesn't need to throw tantrums.

When did you ever see Quenneville or Trotz behave like a two year old?

Yes, starting with the coach is the good first steps

Who cares what the Oilers do...but I wouldnt brag about Calgary Management, it's not like the Flames have much more success in the last 20 or so years.

 

[Anglesmith]

Or you can act like an Oiler fan every year demanding changes. Unlike the management group up North Calgary's management team doesn't make knee jerk reactions that have the team in a constant rebuild cycle.

The only real issue that needs to be looked at in Calgary is to get a Championship coach for our championship team. A coach that doesn't need to throw tantrums.

When did you ever see Quenneville or Trotz behave like a two year old?

 

[Tofveve]

Was thinking about this . . .

What do we expect from our top players? I think Johnny Gaudreau is a phenomenal player, but he's not surrounded by high talent. I wouldn't be surprised if he continues to challenge the leagues top point getters over the next handful of years. But that's about the ceiling. There are no high end centres, and he's a winger. Ideally he'd flourish in a Phil Kessel type role. I could be wrong, but it feels that way.

With regards to Monahan, he's a very good centre, but is it a chicken and egg situation where if he wasn't getting first line ice-time and PP time, would he be the 30 goal man that he is? Throw in the fact that he's playing with Johnny. I wouldn't be surprised if in reality he's a 2nd line centre on a top 5-8 team. Factor in some consistency issues, and I don't know, are we banking on this being our best duo for the long haul? I liked Ferland there but he's probably a 2nd or 3rd liner in the real world. Sam Bennett seems to be someone who is maturing in that direction but he's not put up numbers yet (his work ethic is excellent though). Or maybe Tkachuk with some shuffling around.

We've definitely missed Chucky in this slump.

I guess long story short is that we're missing top end talent up front still. Of course we'd all love a Crosby/Malkin 1-2 centre punch. But that ain't happening any time soon. Maybe in our lifetimes.

Maybe it's all character but I'm not so sure about that. I think we have some lack of talent depth as an issue too.

 

[Ace Rimmer]

I don’t think we have leadership issues, but it’s clear to me the players are done playing for this coach. The message is clear.

That's a sign of a problem with leadership (lack thereof) IMO

 

[lightstorm]

Hindsight and all that but imagine if they jumped on Eric Staal, he'd be perfect for Johnny, big, skilled, tough, can score, doesnt shy away from hacking and slashing when other teams take liberties.

Instead little Johnny has to play with pushover Mony and Ferland who only shows up for 20 games.

This team needs someone like that, or a leader like Getzlaf who would naturally command respect and then go out and dominate shift after shift.

You cant just bring in jokers like Brouwer or even Hamonic or Stajan point at them and say hey heres your leader respect him. Gio is a war horse but way way too nice.

 

[Anglesmith]

That's a sign of a problem with leadership (lack thereof) IMO

But what evidence is there of this?

 

[DFF]

But what evidence is there of this?

The team quit with 10 games to go?

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

That's a sign of a problem with leadership (lack thereof) IMO

I mean, I feel like things get to a point and everyone throws up their hands. Like Einstein said, Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Why should the players expect their fortune to change playing the same way, they know the season is over and they are simply going through the motions at this point. I think that’s definitely on leadership, but I see a team showing up to the rink, trying to be professional. A goal gets scored and they completely crumble.

I dunno it might be just me, but the body language and facial expressions tell me everyone has checked out.

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

The players are still starting games strongly, you can't say they've "checked out".

The adversity is real though. Us fans see their inability to score on dozens of first period chances every game while opponents score on point shots - what makes the players immune to that observation? It's demoralizing.

 

[Baxterman]

With regards to Monahan, he's a very good centre, but is it a chicken and egg situation where if he wasn't getting first line ice-time and PP time, would he be the 30 goal man that he is? Throw in the fact that he's playing with Johnny. I wouldn't be surprised if in reality he's a 2nd line centre on a top 5-8 team. Factor in some consistency issues, and I don't know, are we banking on this being our best duo for the long haul? I liked Ferland there but he's probably a 2nd or 3rd liner in the real world. Sam Bennett seems to be someone who is maturing in that direction but he's not put up numbers yet (his work ethic is excellent though). Or maybe Tkachuk with some shuffling around.

he got 22 as a rookie with no help on his line and not getting 1st line minutes.

The continuing scapegoating and crap thrown at Monahan has gone beyond baffling and is just plain moronic at this point. The guy is constantly putting up big numbers and yet people still try to blame him and pump up much lesser players. Sure a lot of it comes from two posters with clear agendas but it seems to be creeping in more and more with very little basis in fact and more plain BS like above.

 

[The Gnome]

he got 22 as a rookie with no help on his line and not getting 1st line minutes.

The continuing scapegoating and crap thrown at Monahan has gone beyond baffling and is just plain moronic at this point. The guy is constantly putting up big numbers and yet people still try to blame him and pump up much lesser players. Sure a lot of it comes from two posters with clear agendas but it seems to be creeping in more and more with very little basis in fact and more plain BS like above.

It's like people just completely forget his first season. I really do not understand how anyone can crap on a guy who is 23 and constantly leads his team in goals. FFS...

 

[Fig]

I don't think there is an issue with leadership in that group. I do think that its really hard to stay motivated playing a system you don't fully understand/trust in. The transition from Hartley to Gully was like asking construction workers to suddenly go out and learn/do something white collar like accounting on a daily basis.

I do think however, there are some philosophy issues. The coach's system isn't the right fit for the POHO and GM vision. Also, it really messes with the players. We get stupid things like two players getting close to the puck and neither guy are fully sure who is supposed to take the puck (ie: That awful Cogliano goal where Gio and Dougie got confused). We also see things like our players messing up basic fundamentals like 2-3 foot passes. That's not even discussing the fact that physicality is way down under Gully and Burke likes his truculence. I wouldn't even be surprised if both coach and roster are working hard together to meet each other's expectations, but the match is so bad that the success rate is low, even if both parties are willing to work hard on it.

Discipline wasn't a major issue under Hartley, why would it suddenly get bad under Gully? All the players were taught better than that (ie: Bouma, Mony and JG benching) and we know the org has the blessing of the parents to keep them in line due to past history.

Again, I think Gully will succeed as a coach. Just not with this roster.