Proposal: MAF to the Hurricanes

[Paulie Gualtieri]

Here is the 'base' behind the claim

Penguins gave Fleury a NMC .
Penguins have to protect Fleury in the expansion draft
Penguins can only protect 1 goalie
Penguins just won the cup with their 21 year old goalie Matt Murray

Penguins dont want to give up Murray.
Penguins must TRADE Fleury
Penguins must CONVINCE Fleury to waive his NMC

Penguins must convince another team to somehow IGNORE the corner they are backed into with Fleury / Murray and take Fleury off their hands.

Or................

Just buy Fleury out.

Baseless? Not so much.

I'm going to tell you once again, I'm pretty sure Fleury would waive his NMC to some decent trade partners, who would want an upgrade on the goalie they originally planned to protect, because he knows his future as a starter is not with Pittsburgh. Said goalie from the other team would most likely be coming back in the deal. Maybe nothing more, so the other team gets a great deal. Or if more teams are involved, Pittsburgh could get a smaller piece too.

GM's won't all gang together against Pittsburgh just because they are contenders, when some GM's will most likely be getting the better end of the Fleury deal. To even think that Fleury has negative value is ludicrous.

 

[GoldiFox]

I'm going to tell you once again, I'm pretty sure Fleury would waive his NMC to some decent trade partners, who would want an upgrade on the goalie they originally planned to protect, because he knows his future as a starter is not with Pittsburgh. Said goalie from the other team would most likely be coming back in the deal. Maybe nothing more, so the other team gets a great deal. Or if more teams are involved, Pittsburgh could get a smaller piece too.

GM's won't all gang together against Pittsburgh just because they are contenders, when some GM's will most likely be getting the better end of the Fleury deal. To even think that Fleury has negative value is ludicrous.

Which is fine, but it is very different than the OP situation. The Canes would likely give up Lack with $1 million retained and a 3rd/4th round pick for MAF (maybe NYR's 2nd). They won't be giving up one of their top-prospects (McKeown) or their 1st line Center (Rask) for MAF.

In any case I don't think the Pens will trade or eventually possibly buy-out Fleury until the season is over due to the possibility that Murray could get injured. Which eliminates the current "desperation" value to the Canes as they need a goalie right now.

As for the "multiple teams looking to get Bishop/Fleury/etc. in Free Agency" argument, I think it bears mentioning that the Canes currently have the lowest payroll in the league by nearly $5 million. They have Bickel, Stalberg, McClement, and Hainsey as their only pending UFAs and Teravainen/PDG being their only real RFAs of consequence. They will have to spend almost $15 million just to reach the floor with no major internal re-signings. I could see them throwing whatever amount of money it takes to fix their biggest issue: Goaltending.

 

[Canada4Gold]

Fleury's NTC allows him to list 12 teams he won't allow a trade to without his consent, he doesn't have a full NMC as people seem to think he does.

Fleury's partial NMC, which unfortunately does result in him having to be protected at the expansion draft, simply doesn't allow for him to be demoted.

Might as well be a full NMC, just make the 17 teams he can be traded to, teams that no way in hell will trade for him.

Washington, Montreal, Chicago, New Jersey, Anaheim, Boston, Detroit, Tampa Bay, Rangers, Los Angeles, Toronto, Florida, San Jose, Nashville, Minnesota, St. Louis, Winnipeg

That's 17. Towards the end of the list I suppose there's some teams that could still trade for him and it make some semblance of sense but it's still unlikely.

 

[chethejet]

Somehow MAF is not valued but yet teams like Calgary and Toronto think signing a goalie that are basically part time and don't have the track record that MAF has. Some GM will wake up and grasp MAF is an elite goalie and they simply don't come along that often. Bishop will be traded but who knows when. Clearly both will be part of the trade environment this year.

 

[Maukkis]

Pens fans don't seem to understand that while MAF isn't a bad goalie, the situation makes dealing him very difficult. Any team with a NMC goalie won't agree. Same goes for ones who have their Murray. Then there's the cap, and suddenly, the list of buyers is very short. There are no ideal fits around the league anymore. That is going to reduce his value. He can be traded, just not for anything valuable. Picks and prospects, that's it.

 

[Paulie Gualtieri]

Pens fans don't seem to understand that while MAF isn't a bad goalie, the situation makes dealing him very difficult. Any team with a NMC goalie won't agree. Same goes for ones who have their Murray. Then there's the cap, and suddenly, the list of buyers is very short. There are no ideal fits around the league anymore. That is going to reduce his value. He can be traded, just not for anything valuable. Picks and prospects, that's it.

If Ottawa sent back Anderson it would be a good fit, If Dallas sent back Niemi it would be a good fit, if Buffalo sent back Lehner it would be a good fit or if Carolina sent back one of Ward/Lack it would be a good fit (smaller pieces would possibly be involved in the deals). Personally I believe that the list will have an increasing number of destinations the further the season goes on, but there is ofcourse a chance that there may be less. Then it all depends on if he waives for these teams (which I believe he would be interested in for some teams, since he probably wants to be a clear starter).

 

[KIRK]

If Carolina isn't on Fleury's no-trade list I'd be shocked.

Depends on how it's constructed. If it's constructed to be places he doesn't want to go, then it might not be. If it's constructed based more on calculating who potential trade partners might be (i.e., trying to make his limited NTC as close to a full NTC as possible), then it more likely than not is on the list.

Now, that's the practical element of this thread. In terms of the theory, I'm sure there's a deal that could be done if Carolina isn't on the list and Peter Karmanos is on vacation where there are no phones or internet when the deal goes down.

 

[Stickpucker]

How many teams have the cap space to fit Fleury and would he be a clear upgrade in net for...that didn't recently pay out large assets for a netminder?

That seems like a short list.

 

[caniac247]

Yes. He'd be an impending UFA so there's no chance Vegas would waste a pick on him, but the expansion draft occurs before Condon's contract expires.

Condon can't be the goalie the Pens put up for expansion as he has to be under contract for the 2017-18 season. Pending free agents cannot be made available for the expansion.

The Pens will likely trade Fleury before exposing Murray. I doubt they waste a buy out on him and lose him for nothing.

 

[The Old Master]

And the more I think about it, what other team would trade for him? With a buyout, they can lobby him for much cheaper as a UFA because hes getting a Penguins paycheck.

ah! let me get this straight. you want to get in on a bidding war, rather than trade for his rights........ok .......never seen that one before.

 

[Dying Alive]

Roland McKeown and Victor Rask (lol) are not pieces that are being shipped out for a guy who will likely be bought out this offseason. Canes would be doing the Pens a favor here.

I'd rather see the Canes bomb this year and sign Bishop to a huge contract than give away a guy like Rask for MAF.

This is such a weird idea and I see it repeated here all the time. It's not doing the Pens a "favor". It's making a mutually beneficial trade, one that might make the difference between making the playoffs or not for the Canes in a conference with a lot of mediocre teams jumbled up in the middle.

 

[Menzinger]

MAF is fine, but with his contract he's going to have to be given away for close to nothing

Edit:typo

 

[Big McLargehuge]

Might as well be a full NMC, just make the 17 teams he can be traded to, teams that no way in hell will trade for him.

Washington, Montreal, Chicago, New Jersey, Anaheim, Boston, Detroit, Tampa Bay, Rangers, Los Angeles, Toronto, Florida, San Jose, Nashville, Minnesota, St. Louis, Winnipeg

That's 17. Towards the end of the list I suppose there's some teams that could still trade for him and it make some semblance of sense but it's still unlikely.

Assuming that Fleury filled his NTC list with teams that may actually need/want him, leaving only teams that don't need goaltending is an awfully cynical assumption, especially knowing Fleury.

MAF is fine, but with his I react he's going to have to be given away for close to nothing

How dare he make less than market value. Fleury is a fringe top 10 goalie making the 14th highest salary of all goalies this year...overpaid he is not.

 

[Canada4Gold]

Assuming that Fleury filled his NTC list with teams that may actually need/want him, leaving only teams that don't need goaltending is an awfully cynical assumption, especially knowing Fleury.

It would be the logical thing to do, and he has an agent that would be giving him advice on the subject as well.

That's not to say he wouldn't be willing to go to any of those teams, but it's an effective way to effectively enlarge his NMC to essentially a full NMC without actually having a full NMC. Giving himself control over where he goes if he doesn't stay in Pittsburgh

I think Kessel's list was similar, leaving Pit in his willing to be traded to group thinking they wouldn't trade him him with the money they had committed to other players. But they managed to swing the deal anyway. Part of the reason the return wasn't as high as some Leafs fans were hoping for. His list consisted mostly of teams who wouldn't realistically trade for him, which pretty much left the Pens as the only target. But it's easier to ascertain a list of teams who won't acquire you for goalies than for wingers.

 

[SaskCanesFan]

This is such a weird idea and I see it repeated here all the time. It's not doing the Pens a "favor". It's making a mutually beneficial trade, one that might make the difference between making the playoffs or not for the Canes in a conference with a lot of mediocre teams jumbled up in the middle.

The Canes giving up their 1C is not beneficial at all, and won't get them closer to the playoffs. So yes, giving up Rask or one of their top defensive prospects is absolutely doing the Pens a favour. Away from those two players though, I'm sure a trade could be worked out between the Pens and Canes.

 

[Canada4Gold]

Condon can't be the goalie the Pens put up for expansion as he has to be under contract for the 2017-18 season. Pending free agents cannot be made available for the expansion.

The Pens will likely trade Fleury before exposing Murray. I doubt they waste a buy out on him and lose him for nothing.

no but that wasn't the question. The question was can they expose him to the draft. Which they can.

Assuming the question was for the purposes of the requirements then yeah they need to expose someone else who has a contract(or qualified RFA for 17/18), and if they trade or buyout Fleury doesn't look like they have anyone now. Jarry and McGuire are exempt. They'll probably sign someone, or trade for someone with a 17/18 deal.

This doesn't chance the situation with Fleury though which is sounded like the purpose behind the question(a hey, can't they just expose Condon instead type of question), they can't protect both Fleury and Murray regardless of whether they get someone else to fit the requirements. But they'll obviously do that, they won't be forced to expose Murray because they have nobody else fitting those requirements.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Yes, Fleury could make it as difficult as he can to get traded. He could also make it as easy as possible by just listing teams who don't need him on his NTC or waiving to go to any team that wants him. The latter is no less likely than the former, at least based on what people on this site know.

Idk, I just find the idea that any team will be "helping out the Penguins by trading for Fleury" to be incredibly stupid. It's a mutually beneficial trade, one team gets a fringe top-10 goalie and the other doesn't have to lose their young phenom goalie. It's not like the Penguins are trading Clarkson here or something.

 

[GoldiFox]

Yes, Fleury could make it as difficult as he can to get traded. He could also make it as easy as possible by just listing teams who don't need him on his NTC or waiving to go to any team that wants him. The latter is no less likely than the former, at least based on what people on this site know.

Idk, I just find the idea that any team will be "helping out the Penguins by trading for Fleury" to be incredibly stupid. It's a mutually beneficial trade, one team gets a fringe top-10 goalie and the other doesn't have to lose their young phenom goalie. It's not like the Penguins are trading Clarkson here or something.

Why would Fleury help out a team that he has no future with? His ideal situation is to be bought out and then sign with the highest bidder or best situation as a UFA. Double pay checks for the next 4 years. I know that's what his agent would push for.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Why would Fleury help out a team that he has no future with? His ideal situation is to be bought out and then sign with the highest bidder or best situation as a UFA. Double pay checks for the next 4 years. I know that's what his agent would push for.

And what if there aren't any situations available in free agency? What if there aren't any teams offering Fleury starting money, so he'll actually end up worse off from being bought out?

A lot of the teams who could use upgrades in net need to move their own goalies to get them. The Stars can't sign Fleury for example, but they can trade for him relatively easily. It's entirely possible that Fleury gets bought out and no teams/limited teams offer him starting money and a starting role, especially when you consider Elliott and Bishop will also be available next summer.

I mean, let's look at this realistically. What teams can actually sign Fleury to a similar contract he's getting now next offseason? There's Vegas depending on who they draft in the expansion draft, Vancouver maybe (I doubt they'd want to spend $9.5 million on Markstrom and Fleury combined), Winnipeg if they aren't comfortable with Hellebuyck as a starter yet, Buffalo depending on what happens with Lehner and Calgary if Elliott walks? That's like 5 and a lot of them are stretches. Who can trade for Fleury? Buffalo (send back Lehner), Carolina (send back Lack/Ward), Calgary (don't need to send anyone back as of right now), Dallas (send Niemi back), NYI (send Halak back), Vegas (don't need to send anyone back if they trade before the expansion draft), Vancouver (send back Markstrom) and Ottawa (send back Anderson)?

 

[Menzinger]

Assuming that Fleury filled his NTC list with teams that may actually need/want him, leaving only teams that don't need goaltending is an awfully cynical assumption, especially knowing Fleury.



How dare he make less than market value. Fleury is a fringe top 10 goalie making the 14th highest salary of all goalies this year...overpaid he is not.

Not just caphit - also things like age, injury history, ect. And the fact that the Pens aren't exactly in a strong negotiation position - IR he's hardly the only guy out on the market.

Pens should treat capspace as the main asset they'll get by moving him. I just don't see him having a large return

 

[sheriff bart]

Pens should treat capspace as the main asset they'll get by moving him. I just don't see him having a large return

This is what makes the Canes a perfect trade partner if he is willing to accept a trade. Moving MAF for one of the Canes goalies with salary retained and a middling pick gives them immediate cap relief. A straight up "hockey trade" is just going to bring back salary and tie up things. I can see one of the young defensive prospects the Canes have as being involved.

 

[Identity404]

Ward 50% retained, 3rd round pick, Lucas Wallmark.

 

[Headshot77]

One question I have is that all NHL teams are required to expose one NHL goaltender to the expansion draft. If we cut ties with Fleury, and Condon is ineligible as a UFA, and Zatkoff is gone...who would be the goalie we expose? Jarry? I'm sure he wouldn't meet any minimum games played requirement. I don't think the Penguins would be able to just trade Fleury for prospects and "cap space", as a goalie needs to come back the other way if the whole objective is protecting Murray.

 

[Canada4Gold]

One question I have is that all NHL teams are required to expose one NHL goaltender to the expansion draft. If we cut ties with Fleury, and Condon is ineligible as a UFA, and Zatkoff is gone...who would be the goalie we expose? Jarry? I'm sure he wouldn't meet any minimum games played requirement. I don't think the Penguins would be able to just trade Fleury for prospects and "cap space", as a goalie needs to come back the other way if the whole objective is protecting Murray.

There is no games played requirements for the exposed goalie, just needs to be under contract for 17/18 or a qualified RFA. However I think Jarry is exempt so he won't count.

They'd have to sign someone or trade for someone. I don't think that would be a massive issue, not that hard to get a random bad backup goalie under contract for 17/18 could even get one back in the Fleury trade if they trade him.

 

[Empoleon8771]

There is no games played requirements for the exposed goalie, just needs to be under contract for 17/18 or a qualified RFA. However I think Jarry is exempt so he won't count.

They'd have to sign someone or trade for someone. I don't think that would be a massive issue, not that hard to get a random bad backup goalie under contract for 17/18 could even get one back in the Fleury trade if they trade him.

What I imagine the Penguins will do is they'll trade Fleury for someone who doesn't have a NMC/doesn't need to be protected and they'll expose that goalie.