MAF: The One Guy We Can't Lose

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

yeah, just because you keep repeating a lie like a broken record doesn't turn it into the truth... maybe in your case it works... here are the facts.

he had two attrocious series, the worst of any goalie since the 2004-2005 lock-out: the one against the Flyers in 2012 and the one against the Isles in 2013, which would have turned into the Flyers part II if we hadn't have Vokoun. he had an attrocious game seven against the Habs back in 2010, when Moen scored from the blue line on him and they had to put BJ in when they were four goals down already... he has been average or subpar against the Lightning too in 2011.

fun fact: the other worst playoff goalie performance since the lock-out has been Bryzgalov in 2012, and he managed to win the series against MAF.

So a terrible 8-10 games over the span of 4-5 years is enough to negate all the good he's done and somehow has anything to do with how he's playing this year? Sounds about right.

 

[Fetty87]

I think Greiss has the capability to take over if MAF was injured. Being from AZ I catch a lot of Coyotes games (when the Pens aren't playing that is). With the unreliable goaltending that is Mike Smith there were enough opportunities to show Greiss was more than able to bear the weight of stress. I was suprised to hear that they let Greiss but ecstatic to hear the Pens picked him up.

 

[Human]

So a terrible 8-10 games over the span of 4-5 years is enough to negate all the good he's done and somehow has anything to do with how he's playing this year? Sounds about right.

it's a pattern. if you don't see it you must be either blind or MAF's mother...

2006-2007 PENGUINS 5 1 4 0 18 150 .880 3.76 287
2007-2008 PENGUINS 20 14 6 3 41 610 .933 1.97 1,251
2007-2008 WILKES-BARRE PENGUINS-AHL
2008-2009 PENGUINS 24 16 8 0 63 686 .908 2.61 1,447
2009-2010 PENGUINS 13 7 6 1 37 339 .891 2.78 798
2010-2011 PENGUINS 7 3 4 1 17 168 .899 2.52 405
2011-2012 PENGUINS 6 2 4 0 26 157 .834 4.63 337
2012-2013 PENGUINS 5 2 2 1 17 145 .883 3.52 290
2013-2014 PENGUINS 13 7 6 2 32 378 .915 2.40 800
NHL TOTALS 93 52 40 8 251 2,633 .905 2.68 5,616

you don't get that sort of stats out of 8-10 games. those are pretty much 80's goalie stats...

 

[Sideline]

yeah, just because you keep repeating a lie like a broken record doesn't turn it into the truth... maybe in your case it works... here are the facts.

he had two attrocious series, the worst of any goalie since the 2004-2005 lock-out: the one against the Flyers in 2012 and the one against the Isles in 2013, which would have turned into the Flyers part II if we hadn't have Vokoun. he had an attrocious game seven against the Habs back in 2010, when Moen scored from the blue line on him and they had to put BJ in when they were four goals down already... he has been average or subpar against the Lightning too in 2011.

fun fact: the other worst playoff goalie performance since the lock-out has been Bryzgalov in 2012, and he managed to win the series against MAF.

I will concede I was wrong saying he had 3 or 4 awful years. I just kind of black out the memories at this point. More precisely Fleury had 2 unspeakably awful years, 1 pathetically bad year, and 1 suspect year.

 

[Frederick Stanley]

yeah, just because you keep repeating a lie like a broken record doesn't turn it into the truth... maybe in your case it works... here are the facts.

he had two attrocious series, the worst of any goalie since the 2004-2005 lock-out: the one against the Flyers in 2012 and the one against the Isles in 2013, which would have turned into the Flyers part II if we hadn't have Vokoun. he had an attrocious game seven against the Habs back in 2010, when Moen scored from the blue line on him and they had to put BJ in when they were four goals down already... he has been average or subpar against the Lightning too in 2011.

fun fact: the other worst playoff goalie performance since the lock-out has been Bryzgalov in 2012, and he managed to win the series against MAF.

Didn't Lapierre score another softy on Fleury from the boards?

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

it's a pattern. if you don't see it you must be either blind or MAF's mother...

2006-2007 PENGUINS 5 1 4 0 18 150 .880 3.76 287
2007-2008 PENGUINS 20 14 6 3 41 610 .933 1.97 1,251
2007-2008 WILKES-BARRE PENGUINS-AHL
2008-2009 PENGUINS 24 16 8 0 63 686 .908 2.61 1,447
2009-2010 PENGUINS 13 7 6 1 37 339 .891 2.78 798
2010-2011 PENGUINS 7 3 4 1 17 168 .899 2.52 405
2011-2012 PENGUINS 6 2 4 0 26 157 .834 4.63 337
2012-2013 PENGUINS 5 2 2 1 17 145 .883 3.52 290
2013-2014 PENGUINS 13 7 6 2 32 378 .915 2.40 800
NHL TOTALS 93 52 40 8 251 2,633 .905 2.68 5,616

you don't get that sort of stats out of 8-10 games. those are pretty much 80's goalie stats...

I see the pattern, it doesn't support your theory that MAF sucks, but I see it.

Because you clearly don't, here it it.

He started with a Dfirst coach and had amazing numbers
He then had DB using MT's system and had good numbers and a Cup
Then DB fully implemented his system and MAF's stats go to hell
Finally, he actually gets a real goalie coach and he has better numbers that the Cup winner

That would suggest a pattern that when he has competent coaching he does well and when his coach sucks he doesn't do well. Am I missing anything?

 

[Human]

MAF is a mental midget. when he enters in one his mental tunels he scores goals on himself.

I don't care if this is because of Bylsma or not, you're missing the point here... he's an unreliable goalie and he shouldn't be the go to guy if this team wants to really compete for the SC.

let me reformulate that, there's nothing to suggest that MAF should be the franchise goalie of a perennial SC challenger franchise so far, au contraire...

edit: I can't even wrap my head around the fact that Shero reccomended him to see a psychologist after the Flyers series and he refused. after that he was still kept in as the franchise goalie and here we are under a new regime that signed him to another long contract (apparently mostly because he was an important guy in the lockerroom ). this really doesn't make any kind of sense to me...

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

MAF is a mental midget. when he enters in one his mental tunels he scores goals on himself.

I don't care if this is because of Bylsma or not, you're missing the point here... he's an unreliable goalie and he shouldn't be the go to guy if this team wants to really compete for the SC.

let me reformulate that, there's nothing to suggest that MAF should be the franchise goalie of a perennial SC challenger franchise so far, au contraire...

edit: I can't even wrap my head around the fact that Shero reccomended him to see a psychologist after the Flyers series and he refused. after that he was still kept in as the franchise goalie and here we are under a new regime that signed him to another long contract (apparently mostly because he was an important guy in the lockerroom ). this really doesn't make any kind of sense to me...

You don't know what you're talking about. I've explained it to you enough time over enough threads that you just won't get it.

 

[Human]

You don't know what you're talking about. I've explained it to you enough time over enough threads that you just won't get it.

ok...

 

[Penguinator]

...and i thought he had an elite-like season.

 

[BigEezyE22]

MAF is a mental midget. when he enters in one his mental tunels he scores goals on himself.

I don't care if this is because of Bylsma or not, you're missing the point here... he's an unreliable goalie and he shouldn't be the go to guy if this team wants to really compete for the SC.

let me reformulate that, there's nothing to suggest that MAF should be the franchise goalie of a perennial SC challenger franchise so far, au contraire...

edit: I can't even wrap my head around the fact that Shero reccomended him to see a psychologist after the Flyers series and he refused. after that he was still kept in as the franchise goalie and here we are under a new regime that signed him to another long contract (apparently mostly because he was an important guy in the lockerroom ). this really doesn't make any kind of sense to me...

Speaking of quality of work when someone goes into one of their "mental tunnels"...

 

[KIRK]

I think Greiss has the capability to take over if MAF was injured. Being from AZ I catch a lot of Coyotes games (when the Pens aren't playing that is). With the unreliable goaltending that is Mike Smith there were enough opportunities to show Greiss was more than able to bear the weight of stress. I was suprised to hear that they let Greiss but ecstatic to hear the Pens picked him up.

Whether or not Greiss has that capability, his picking up the slack for Fleury is infinitely more likely than Sutter picking up the slack for Sid or Geno.

If there's 'one guy the Pens can't afford to lose', as the thread's title suggests, then it's either Sid or Geno. Fleury is #3 on the list.

 

[metalan2]

I really can't understand how anyone can think that literally ANY competent goalie would put up MAFs career numbers in wins and save percentage playing behind the teams he has had. He has single handedly ruined a few seasons for the Penguins and that says a ton.

Every single backup goalie that has every played behind Fleury has put up the same numbers as Fleury in smaller scales. Look at Ty Conklin in 07-08 when Fleury "dominated" according to every Fleury defender. Conklin had BETTER numbers than Fleury in two less games.


Fleury is as expendable as it gets.

 

[Ugene Magic]

I really can't understand how anyone can think that literally ANY competent goalie would put up MAFs career numbers in wins and save percentage playing behind the teams he has had. He has single handedly ruined a few seasons for the Penguins and that says a ton.

Every single backup goalie that has every played behind Fleury has put up the same numbers as Fleury in smaller scales. Look at Ty Conklin in 07-08 when Fleury "dominated" according to every Fleury defender. Conklin had BETTER numbers than Fleury in two less games.


Fleury is as expendable as it gets.

Yet even with Conklin and Vokoun they still had the same results. They still lost and were sent home packing.

It's like Goaltenders can't have off years, even great ones.

I'd say Fleury has had 1/2 off years that lead up and into crap fests the entire team has shown and crapped the bed also.

Any goaltender is only as good as the cast in front of him and how they help to limit other teams chances. Most times with a sound cast great goaltenders have to bail out their team on tough chances that are not weak outside chances 3/5 times a game. The rest are what we call saveable chances that they can see.

Often enough this place erupted even when pucks are tipped and screened thinking he should have saved them.

Fleury isn't perfect, and he never was, but if you can't score and give the opposition countless odd man breaks, some even 1/2 on 0's that armor is gonna start to crack.

We talk about them trusting Fleury. How about Fleury trusting they won't leave him out to dry often?

This thread has run it's course as far as I'm concern, the team is in a bad place, but they're starting to get some guys back and Fleury up until the injuries has been more than fine.

Today this thread gets blocked. It's pointless to crap over the past and try to force it on the future.

 

[metalan2]

Yet even with Conklin and Vokoun they still had the same results. They still lost and were sent home packing.

It's like Goaltenders can't have off years, even great ones.

I'd say Fleury has had 1/2 off years that lead up and into crap fests the entire team has shown and crapped the bed also.

Any goaltender is only as good as the cast in front of him and how they help to limit other teams chances. Most times with a sound cast great goaltenders have to bail out their team on tough chances that are not weak outside chances 3/5 times a game. The rest are what we call saveable chances that they can see.

Often enough this place erupted even when pucks are tipped and screened thinking he should have saved them.

Fleury isn't perfect, and he never was, but if you can't score and give the opposition countless odd man breaks, some even 1/2 on 0's that armor is gonna start to crack.

We talk about them trusting Fleury. How about Fleury trusting they won't leave him out to dry often?

This thread has run it's course as far as I'm concern, the team is in a bad place, but they're starting to get some guys back and Fleury up until the injuries has been more than fine.

Today this thread gets blocked. It's pointless to crap over the past and try to force it on the future.

You agree with me then. Fleury is expendable, and is not the "one guy we can't lose" as was the point of this thread. Greiss would very easily replace Fleury with this team in front of him and he is a career backup.


It is a mistake to trust him in the playoffs, and was a mistake to re-sign him.

 

[cassius]

You agree with me then. Fleury is expendable, and is not the "one guy we can't lose" as was the point of this thread. Greiss would very easily replace Fleury with this team in front of him and he is a career backup.


It is a mistake to trust him in the playoffs, and was a mistake to re-sign him.

How do these numbers compare to other goalies around the league? Here's a list of every goalie who has played at least 20 playoff games in the last four playoff years, sorted by overall cumulative save percentage:

Rk	Player	Team	Games	GA	SA	Saves	Save %
1	Tim Thomas	Bruins	32	67	1056	989	0.937
2	Henrik Lundqvist	Rangers	28	58	809	751	0.928
3	Jonathan Quick	Kings	36	77	1067	990	0.928
4	Jaroslav Halak	Canadiens/Blues	20	46	608	562	0.924
5	Pekka Rinne	Predators	28	69	818	749	0.916
6	Jimmy Howard	Red Wings	32	86	987	901	0.913
7	Martin Brodeur	Devils	29	67	755	688	0.911
8	Antti Niemi	Blackhawks/Sharks	49	135	1460	1325	0.908
9	Brian Boucher	Flyers	21	49	527	478	0.907
10	Roberto Luongo	Canucks	42	112	1208	1096	0.907
11	Ilya Bryzgalov	Coyotes/Flyers	22	78	721	643	0.892
12	Marc-Andre Fleury	Penguins	30	94	792	698	0.881

There he is, dead last in the league. You could extend this group to include goalies who have played 10 games or more, too, and Fleury would still be dead last. He's been awful in the playoffs, and since winning the Cup in 2009, he's been awful with unparalleled consistency.

http://www.sbnation.com/nhl/2013/5/8/4312126/marc-andre-fleury-stats-penguins-nhl-playoffs-2013

 

[Fleury3434*]

http://www.sbnation.com/nhl/2013/5/8/4312126/marc-andre-fleury-stats-penguins-nhl-playoffs-2013

No one disagrees fleury was bad. But this is from two years ago. Last years playoffs was more than average (he gave the pens a chance to win the cup). Pens did not lose last year because of fleury. They lost to a team that got a lot of momentum playing for a teammate and a goaltender who got hot at the right time. **** happens.

And this year fleury looks great! Why bring up 2 years ago? Let's move on. Fleury is playing solid right now and that's all we need him to do come playoff time (just like he did last year)

 

[Human]

No one disagrees fleury was bad. But this is from two years ago. Last years playoffs was more than average (he gave the pens a chance to win the cup). Pens did not lose last year because of fleury. They lost to a team that got a lot of momentum playing for a teammate and a goaltender who got hot at the right time. **** happens.

And this year fleury looks great! Why bring up 2 years ago? Let's move on. Fleury is playing solid right now and that's all we need him to do come playoff time (just like he did last year)

that's exactly what we've done for the last how many years again? we moved on with the same results...

 

[metalan2]

No one disagrees fleury was bad. But this is from two years ago. Last years playoffs was more than average (he gave the pens a chance to win the cup). Pens did not lose last year because of fleury. They lost to a team that got a lot of momentum playing for a teammate and a goaltender who got hot at the right time. **** happens.

And this year fleury looks great! Why bring up 2 years ago? Let's move on. Fleury is playing solid right now and that's all we need him to do come playoff time (just like he did last year)

Fleury got outplayed..again and still let in Fleury goals at times that crippled the Pens in a few games. He in no way, shape, or form played well in the playoffs last year. I'm still glad the result happened because Bylsma is gone, but I thought it was Fleury's last hu rah as well.


Fleury's numbers are better this year because he is more insulated..yes. That can bode well in the playoffs when everyone is healthy. However, he is still the same MAF and as the stakes get higher his game becomes unhinged. Just look at his games this year vs big rivals. Same story.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

Fleury got outplayed..again and still let in Fleury goals at times that crippled the Pens in a few games. He in no way, shape, or form played well in the playoffs last year. I'm still glad the result happened because Bylsma is gone, but I thought it was Fleury's last hu rah as well.


Fleury's numbers are better this year because he is more insulated..yes. That can bode well in the playoffs when everyone is healthy. However, he is still the same MAF and as the stakes get higher his game becomes unhinged. Just look at his games this year vs big rivals. Same story.

Considering he had the 4th best numbers of all PO goalies last year (and better numbers than the guy who won the Cup), I'm gonna go ahead and assume that nothing MAF does will ever be good in your eyes, lol.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Jesus, this needs bumped as well. MAF is absolutely the team MVP this year. Who would have thought that 6 months ago? Guy has been so brilliant. Good for him and i pray he can carry it over into the postseason.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Jesus, this needs bumped as well. MAF is absolutely the team MVP this year. Who would have thought that 6 months ago? Guy has been so brilliant. Good for him and i pray he can carry it over into the postseason.

I am not sure that it needed to be bumped.

I do not think that anyone is questioning that he has been our MVP this year. He still has to do it in the playoffs, but I do think most are more comfortable going into the playoffs with him this year than in year's past. The Pens do seem to hang him out to dry with constant odd man breaks much less this year as well. Might have something to do with him being more steady in the net this year, no? Hockey is a team game, and goalie more than any other position depends on the guys around him almost as much as his skills.

 

[mrzeigler]

Dude is currently ranked fourth in GAA, seventh in save percentage, sixth in wins and first in shutouts. Unquestionably, he's a top-5 goalie this year.

I'm very confident in our goaltending heading into the playoffs. And yes, IMO he's our MVP, followed by Letang, Malkin and Crosby ... in that order.

 

[cassius]

Dude is currently ranked fourth in GAA, seventh in save percentage, sixth in wins and first in shutouts. Unquestionably, he's a top-5 goalie this year.

I'm very confident in our goaltending heading into the playoffs.

Devils advocate... when has Fleury never NOT had a great regular season?

Listen, I would love for Fleury to continue this hot stretch into the post-season, but we also must be cognizant of historical trends.

 

[plaidchuck]

Man seems like he can never get that save pct. Into the top elite. Still hoping for a vezina nom though.