Maclean's coaching

Holdurbreathe

Registered User
Jun 22, 2006
8,550
2
Ontario
Martin's system was good for the regular season but not good come playoff time. There is a reason the team underachieved in his time here and part of it was how stubborn he was and his inability to adapt to change in the postseason. Maclean is not perfect but it's laughable to think there will be a coaching change. You'll see a lot of trades before he gets replaced not to mention there isn't anyone else out there who would have this team in a better spot. I also laugh at the notion of Torts as this amazing coach. Since he's won the cup he's done jack squat except for that run in 2012 and even then it was only cause of Lunqdvist that they got that far. Right now his team looks worse than ours does and Vancouver has more talent on their team than we do. They are on the verge of collapsing down the stretch and could very well miss the playoffs if the kings, wild and coyotes start heating up.

Martin's system was fine any time.

Can't blame the system for players not scoring or goaltenders letting in easy shots.

In the case of MacLean he just needs to add the appropriate caveat, "the best players play, unless they are younger than the players I'm going to play".
 

Nac Mac Feegle

wee & free
Jun 10, 2011
34,974
9,397
A while back, Ryan said that Turris and MacArthur had good chemistry and he had to find a way to fit in. He almost sounded like a 3rd wheel when he said that. You'd think a good coach would catch on to that especially when the star isn't scoring much over a long period of time.

Here's an idea MacLean: Instead of just flipping a 3rd/4th line player over to Spezza's wing why not be a bit more innovative. If you don't think that Spezza / Ryan is a good combo then why not try Da Costa with Ryan when making these in-game adjustments. SDC is a very good puck handler / passer and Ryan could use a centre who looks to him as the go-to guy. Besides SDC deserves a bit more playing time lately. Put Greening or almost anyone on the left and you might have a pretty good line. I don't think it would hurt the Turris/ MacArthur combo if they had a guy like Conacher or Condra on their right wing for some shifts. Heck if you really want to experiment and push Z-Bad to the rw (not my preference) why not try him with the Turris/Mac combo too. Spezza/Michalek are playing like 4th liners anyway so should get limited minutes.

What I'm saying is you'd think a Jack Adams winner would show some imagination when making adjustments during the games instead of just flipping the same guys. Maclean what have you got to lose?

btw) To the few guys who say don't mess with the only scoring line: This is just to switch things out. If it works you go with it if not you always have the old standby lines. It's just tiring to see the same old samo samo line changes. Nothing ventured-nothing gained.

You know, I've never coached the game, or any sport, but I have to ask...why the heck aren't they spending some extra time at practice to experiment with lines? See who gels? Or are the CBA on-ice time constraints too tight for that?
 

Wondercarrot

By The Power of Canadian Tire Centre
Jul 2, 2002
8,176
4,021
IF the team is willing to spend, they are in a good position going forward because they havent spent like fools the past few years (doesnt really matter why, as long as they have the capacity going forward)

Its allowed the org to get good looks at lots of young guys, allowed us to find the new core for the most part.
We've got assets young and old that can be used to target players we need and want.

Could pick up a useful UFA as well, and be positioned very well for the next 5 or 6 years.

So while ownership has ZERO credibility with me, the reality is that if BM is given the green light to add salary to resign our guys, and add salary as we require it over the next couple of years we are going to have a really good team.

the opportunity is there if BM and Co. are allowed to seize it.
 

Wondercarrot

By The Power of Canadian Tire Centre
Jul 2, 2002
8,176
4,021
right so that last post has nothing to do with coaching, wrong thread.

so coaching.....yeah - baffling to me. OT pairs are mystifying among other things.
 

Hammertyme

Registered User
Jun 20, 2006
955
0
Gatineau/Ottawa
The only real question for me is the playing of Spezza in important situations. His risk/reward is seriously skewed toward the risk factor. He just can not seem to play defensive hockey and his offence is slow and methodical. There is no quickness to his game. Maybe he is on a premature physical decline that others reach at 38-40. He is such a non positive entity when he is on the ice. Easy passes telegraphed so everybody including a blind man can anticipate and thus intercept it. Straight north south with no lateral movement to open passing lanes and a total avoidance of physical contact and a nearly perfect record of losing board battles. I wish for him that he gets his game together. I'm with others who think there has to be something physical or maybe so timid after the surgery last year. We don't know what the doctor said.
I don't know what McLean can do as Spezza is one of the top paid players that he has been dealt. When 3 of your top paid players are damn near -60 for the year then you are playing with a hand of blanks and that affects everyone.
 

StefanW

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Mar 13, 2013
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Ottawa
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Andy has turned it around, but it still doesn't erase the fact that him playing so much when he was struggling has cost us in the standings. Also let me get this straight he can't hold our vets accountable because the general manager put this team together. (??????)

So you don't see any connection between continuing to play Andy to allow him to work himself out of his slump, and Andy playing well from Dec 1st forward?

If I played on this team I would be accountable for my own play. However, being forced to play me because I am cheap is on the budget, and the decision to keep me even though I completely suck is on the GM. In other words, holding players accountable is a different process from the decisions made about which players to keep or how the roster is organized.
 

BankStreetParade

Registered User
Jan 22, 2013
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Ottawa
I want Ottawa to be a top five team and win the cup.

Good for Otrawa for being 25th in spending and 16-20 overall and doing better then teams that spend a lot poorly.

I'm sorry I want to see Ottawa at the top of the standings like Boston, Tampa, Chicago, San Jose...

More money = more talent

You don't think if the Sens had two more Mcarthurs they would not be at the top of the standings... That's an extra 35G

:facepalm: Holy ****. What a ****ing epiphany. I wish I'd understood that it was as simple as "having two more MacArthurs"...which begs the simple question of WHERE THE **** ARE YOU GETTING TWO MORE MACARTHURS FROM?????
 

StefanW

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Mar 13, 2013
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:facepalm: Holy ****. What a ****ing epiphany. I wish I'd understood that it was as simple as "having two more MacArthurs"...which begs the simple question of WHERE THE **** ARE YOU GETTING TWO MORE MACARTHURS FROM?????

Well, you could sign them or trade for them, which we could not possibly have done due to our internal cap. See what I did there?

You have the right to your own opinion, but you are being kind of aggressive considering you are far from free from taking huge and very questionable leaps of logic in your posts. To be blunt, your opinion is not the standard against which the merits of other opinions are measured.
 

BankStreetParade

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Jan 22, 2013
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Ottawa
Well, you could sign them or trade for them, which we could not possibly have done due to our internal cap. See what I did there?

You have the right to your own opinion, but you are being kind of aggressive considering you are far from free from taking huge and very questionable leaps of logic in your posts. To be blunt, your opinion is not the standard against which the merits of other opinions are measured.

No I don't because what you did was actually nothing. Anyone on the face of the earth can say we should just sign two more MacArthurs. But show me how it can actually be done. Someone show us how easy and simple it is to sign and/or trade for two more MacArthurs. If it's as easy as it is to say it then it shouldn't be a problem. And be realistic about who you're signing, for how much money/term and who you're trading for and what you're giving up to get them. Cause I'm so sick of all this "if we spent more money we'd be a better team" ********. As if it's that simple. As if the Ottawa Senators are the only team in the league trying to get better. This isn't NHL 14's card game where you can keep buying packs of players until you get the best ones that you want. This is real life. Free agents choose where they want to go. NHL teams don't just give away their players for free.

So go ahead, show me how it can be done so easily. Let's see what happens when you actually have to back up what you're saying instead of just regurgitating the same garbage and pretending that it's actually true because you've said it so many times.
 

StefanW

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Mar 13, 2013
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Ottawa
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No I don't because what you did was actually nothing. Anyone on the face of the earth can say we should just sign two more MacArthurs. But show me how it can actually be done. Someone show us how easy and simple it is to sign and/or trade for two more MacArthurs. If it's as easy as it is to say it then it shouldn't be a problem. And be realistic about who you're signing, for how much money/term and who you're trading for and what you're giving up to get them. Cause I'm so sick of all this "if we spent more money we'd be a better team" ********. As if it's that simple. As if the Ottawa Senators are the only team in the league trying to get better. This isn't NHL 14's card game where you can keep buying packs of players until you get the best ones that you want. This is real life. Free agents choose where they want to go. NHL teams don't just give away their players for free.

So go ahead, show me how it can be done so easily. Let's see what happens when you actually have to back up what you're saying instead of just regurgitating the same garbage and pretending that it's actually true because you've said it so many times.

You do realize that the point has already been made that we do not have access to what GM are specifically offering, right?

Anyway, here is how my logic goes. There have been about a dozen or so trades this season, which is not a huge number. The reason why is actually not really disputed. When GMs are asked (as repeated by reporters), the most common thing they identify is that it is extremely difficult to make trades when everyone is nosing up to their budget and all you get is dollar in-dollar out deals. Are we still on the same page at this point?

Here is the thing. Our team actually has tons of budget room, which means the reason we were stuck with dollar in-dollar out trade scenarios is that our internal budget (not the cap) stops us from taking on any extra payroll.

Here is another thing. Teams that are stuck against the cap ceiling would be looking to free up some extra cap space that could provide flexibility in making other deals that address specific team needs.

Now here is a third thing. Teams who were out of contention early (like Florida) were looking to dump some salaries as far back as two months ago. They would want young players on cheap contracts in return, which is exactly what we are offering right now.

So as the team was moving along, and clearly needed an extra winger (and an extra D first, before Ceci came along), our team could not swing anything but a dollar in-dollar out trade due to our internal cap. We could not take advantage of a series of factors that should have made it easier than normal to pick up an impact player.

The only counterargument that makes sense is that it does not help the team in the long run to pick up overpriced contracts. Melnyk makes this argument all of the time, and there is merit to it. However, it is a stretch to say that every player available was overpriced. It is probably more accurate to say that players available did not fit into our salary structure, which then makes it an internal cap issue once again.
 

BankStreetParade

Registered User
Jan 22, 2013
6,808
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Ottawa
You do realize that the point has already been made that we do not have access to what GM are specifically offering, right?

Anyway, here is how my logic goes. There have been about a dozen or so trades this season, which is not a huge number. The reason why is actually not really disputed. When GMs are asked (as repeated by reporters), the most common thing they identify is that it is extremely difficult to make trades when everyone is nosing up to their budget and all you get is dollar in-dollar out deals. Are we still on the same page at this point?

Here is the thing. Our team actually has tons of budget room, which means the reason we were stuck with dollar in-dollar out trade scenarios is that our internal budget (not the cap) stops us from taking on any extra payroll.

Here is another thing. Teams that are stuck against the cap ceiling would be looking to free up some extra cap space that could provide flexibility in making other deals that address specific team needs.

Now here is a third thing. Teams who were out of contention early (like Florida) were looking to dump some salaries as far back as two months ago. They would want young players on cheap contracts in return, which is exactly what we are offering right now.

So as the team was moving along, and clearly needed an extra winger (and an extra D first, before Ceci came along), our team could not swing anything but a dollar in-dollar out trade due to our internal cap. We could not take advantage of a series of factors that should have made it easier than normal to pick up an impact player.

The only counterargument that makes sense is that it does not help the team in the long run to pick up overpriced contracts. Melnyk makes this argument all of the time, and there is merit to it. However, it is a stretch to say that every player available was overpriced. It is probably more accurate to say that players available did not fit into our salary structure, which then makes it an internal cap issue once again.

Uh, no. That's actually not true at all. That's just pure speculation on the part of a fanbase that seems to equate spending with winning as if the two are directly positively related. More spending = more winning.

Well that's actually not the case.

Trades have nothing to do with budgets. Trades have everything to do with managing assets. No one in the league is giving away players for free. Everyone is trying to win the trade they're making. Since the inception of the cap, how many trades have been made specifically for the purpose of alleviating cap constraint? You think teams are stupid. They have a million and one tricks about how they can maneuver their cap space.

The vast majority of trades teams want to make are getting rid of players that are any combination of aging, overpaid, underperforming or expiring. You rarely see trades like the Ryan and Seguin trades. Has absolutely nothing to do with budgets and everything to do with paying the cost of assets necessary to make the trade happen.

This isn't rocket science. Teams want to take advantage. Especially when the team calling hasn't been performing to expectations then sense weakness and try to take advantage.

Look at the Del Zotto thing. We heard the Sens connected to him and what was the asking price? Supposedly Methot. That has nothing to do with budget and everything to do with the fact that Methot is the kind of player we need on the team.

Some deals just don't make sense to make. The value being asked for the player doesn't make sense. Why hasn't Buffalo made any trades yet? They have tons of cap space. Why are Colorado not using up their cap space to improve their lineup even more? Again, absolutely nothing to do with budgets and everything to do with executing trades that deliver value.

This fanbase can jump up and down as much as they want yelling about budgets and internal caps and all that ****. But no one has proven yet that it exists. We definitely aren't a cap team at this time. But we have very very very good players signed to ridiculously good contracts. Just the trio of Karlsson, Turris and MacArthur could collectively be making $6+ million more than they currently are. This team is spending money the right way. They've proven that they are willing to pay to keep exceptional talent and their evaluation metrics are precise. We also have kept a ton of financial flexibility and spend a ton of money on player development and coaching staffs and personnel.

Murray continues to actively attempt to make trades. He tried to get Rick Nash. He inquired about Del Zotto. He thought he had made a deal this week (which some bloggers believe was for Parenteau or Tanguay) until the team backed out last minute. The man is trying. The money is there to spend on the right players. Not to just go and blow our brains out on every single free agent every year just as a way of showing our fanbase that we have money and can spend like other teams. Well we tried that approach before and it didn't work.
 

The Fuhr*

Guest
:facepalm: Holy ****. What a ****ing epiphany. I wish I'd understood that it was as simple as "having two more MacArthurs"...which begs the simple question of WHERE THE **** ARE YOU GETTING TWO MORE MACARTHURS FROM?????

If BM had 6-7 million dollars more to work with I'm sure he'd use it to bring in more talent in the summer.

People tell me how good a GM BM is all the time... I'm sure a good GM could use the money efficiently
 

BankStreetParade

Registered User
Jan 22, 2013
6,808
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Ottawa
If BM had 6-7 million dollars more to work with I'm sure he'd use it to bring in more talent in the summer.

People tell me how good a GM BM is all the time... I'm sure a good GM could use the money efficiently

A) How do you know he doesn't?
B) Who is he spending that money on?

All you keep doing is just saying the same thing yet you refuse to back it up. Who are we realistically signing for that money? Even better, where are the 2 MacArthurs you said we could get for that money? Just answer the question.
 

The Fuhr*

Guest
A) How do you know he doesn't?
B) Who is he spending that money on?

All you keep doing is just saying the same thing yet you refuse to back it up. Who are we realistically signing for that money? Even better, where are the 2 MacArthurs you said we could get for that money? Just answer the question.

Ryder + Zidlicky I would have spent the money on like nj did
 

StefanW

Registered User
Mar 13, 2013
6,286
0
Ottawa
www.storiesnumberstell.com
Uh, no. That's actually not true at all. That's just pure speculation on the part of a fanbase that seems to equate spending with winning as if the two are directly positively related. More spending = more winning.

Well that's actually not the case.

Trades have nothing to do with budgets. Trades have everything to do with managing assets. No one in the league is giving away players for free. Everyone is trying to win the trade they're making. Since the inception of the cap, how many trades have been made specifically for the purpose of alleviating cap constraint? You think teams are stupid. They have a million and one tricks about how they can maneuver their cap space.

The vast majority of trades teams want to make are getting rid of players that are any combination of aging, overpaid, underperforming or expiring. You rarely see trades like the Ryan and Seguin trades. Has absolutely nothing to do with budgets and everything to do with paying the cost of assets necessary to make the trade happen.

This isn't rocket science. Teams want to take advantage. Especially when the team calling hasn't been performing to expectations then sense weakness and try to take advantage.

Look at the Del Zotto thing. We heard the Sens connected to him and what was the asking price? Supposedly Methot. That has nothing to do with budget and everything to do with the fact that Methot is the kind of player we need on the team.

Some deals just don't make sense to make. The value being asked for the player doesn't make sense. Why hasn't Buffalo made any trades yet? They have tons of cap space. Why are Colorado not using up their cap space to improve their lineup even more? Again, absolutely nothing to do with budgets and everything to do with executing trades that deliver value.

This fanbase can jump up and down as much as they want yelling about budgets and internal caps and all that ****. But no one has proven yet that it exists. We definitely aren't a cap team at this time. But we have very very very good players signed to ridiculously good contracts. Just the trio of Karlsson, Turris and MacArthur could collectively be making $6+ million more than they currently are. This team is spending money the right way. They've proven that they are willing to pay to keep exceptional talent and their evaluation metrics are precise. We also have kept a ton of financial flexibility and spend a ton of money on player development and coaching staffs and personnel.

Murray continues to actively attempt to make trades. He tried to get Rick Nash. He inquired about Del Zotto. He thought he had made a deal this week (which some bloggers believe was for Parenteau or Tanguay) until the team backed out last minute. The man is trying. The money is there to spend on the right players. Not to just go and blow our brains out on every single free agent every year just as a way of showing our fanbase that we have money and can spend like other teams. Well we tried that approach before and it didn't work.

Stopped reading at the bolded part.
 

BankStreetParade

Registered User
Jan 22, 2013
6,808
4,219
Ottawa
Ryder + Zidlicky I would have spent the money on like nj did

Those are not Clarke MacArthurs. Not in playing style. Not in production. Not in age. Not even close to what you were suggesting.

Clarke MacArthur
18 G 24 A 42 PTs $3.25 million/yr 28 y/o

Michael Ryder
16 G 10 A 26 PTs $3.5 million/yr 33 y/o

Marek Zidlicky
8 G 21 A 29 PTs $3 million/yr 37 y/o

You said we could get two MacArthurs for about $7 million and we would have an extra 35 G in the lineup. That's delusional. And you just proved it.
 

BankStreetParade

Registered User
Jan 22, 2013
6,808
4,219
Ottawa
Not even adding my own comments at this point.

Go look up trades that are made and the corresponding cap hits of players involved. Tell me how many trades are made on the basis of money and not the talent in question. This isn't the NBA bud. Teams don't just throw in players to even out the money.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

The Fuhr*

Guest
Those are not Clarke MacArthurs. Not in playing style. Not in production. Not in age. Not even close to what you were suggesting.

Clarke MacArthur
18 G 24 A 42 PTs $3.25 million/yr 28 y/o

Michael Ryder
16 G 10 A 26 PTs $3.5 million/yr 33 y/o

Marek Zidlicky
8 G 21 A 29 PTs $3 million/yr 37 y/o

You said we could get two MacArthurs for about $7 million and we would have an extra 35 G in the lineup. That's delusional. And you just proved it.

I chose Zidlicky because the team needs a D

Ryder + Raymond = 30G for 4.5 million
 

Icelevel

During these difficult times...
Sep 9, 2009
24,932
5,103
i would have tried to get penner for a little extra what he gets now (2 mil)

13g 16a 29pts +21 and huge, and playoff performer
 

BankStreetParade

Registered User
Jan 22, 2013
6,808
4,219
Ottawa
I chose Zidlicky because the team needs a D

Ryder + Raymond = 30G for 4.5 million

Ok great. I would be happy to have those 2 on the team right now contributing offensively. Here's some of the problems though: if you add those 2 to the roster, who comes off? How do we know they would want to sign here? How do we know Murray didn't try to sign these guys?

My issue with what you said was that you said it so matter of factly. As if it was the easiest and most obvious thing to do. "Sign 2 more MacArthurs = 35 extra goals". Well it's really not that easy.

Maybe in a vacuum where Ottawa is the only team with access to free agents, it might make sense. That's not the case though. Every team is trying to find these guys. Every team wants to have a MacArthur with 42 points making $3.25 million/yr.
 

The Fuhr*

Guest
At the end of the day more money = more talent

More talent = more wins

Right now Ottawa is 21st overall spending the 26th most.

If Ottawa was 10th in payroll they could be 5th overall
 

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