Proposal: M. Stone to Flames To Ottawa M. Tkachuk

[Randy Randerson]

Stone just went ppg and is the best defensive winger in the NHL. If stone can replicate his success, Tkachuk isn't even in the discussion of comparable.
Cgy says no due to age and contract though.

Tkachuk just put up a 60pt pace in his D+2 and was unlucky for that not to have been higher (7.4 OIsh% vs. 11.5 for Stone, nearly double the percentage of shots went in when Stone was on the ice than when Tkachuk was) while also being measurably one of the best defensive wingers in hockey (higher CF%, FF% and relatives of both than Stone). Like I said in the post you quoted, I think Stone is the better player right now, but it will be very surprising if Tkachuk doesn't get there

 

[heilongjetsfan]

To Calgary
Mark Stone-Signed extension

To Ottawa
M. Tkachuk

All the brothers unite- Would this be a fair trade for both sides?

The other way seems like a better plan, especially for Ottawa. Pretty good reason to think Stone is done there. Two Tkachuks is a nice start to a rebuild. They're good pieces, but not so good that they'll push a garbage hockey team up the standings and cost them draft position (not that it matters this year.) I believe this is known as the "Carey Price Effect."

 

[heilongjetsfan]

The other way seems like a better plan, especially for Ottawa. Pretty good reason to think Stone is done there. Two Tkachuks is a nice start to a rebuild. They're good pieces, but not so good that they'll push a garbage hockey team up the standings and cost them draft position (not that it matters this year.) I believe this is known as the "Carey Price Effect."

*edit* oops, I got the OP backwards. Nvm...

 

[Deen]

Tkachuk is going to be a Flames Legend. Easy pass.

 

[Albus Dumbledore]

Tkachuk just put up a 60pt pace in his D+2 and was unlucky for that not to have been higher (7.4 OIsh% vs. 11.5 for Stone, nearly double the percentage of shots went in when Stone was on the ice than when Tkachuk was) while also being measurably one of the best defensive wingers in hockey (higher CF%, FF% and relatives of both than Stone). Like I said in the post you quoted, I think Stone is the better player right now, but it will be very surprising if Tkachuk doesn't get there

You think he can be the best defesive winger and ppg? Lol

 

[mattydamon]

Why is it hyperbole?

Mark Stone's best season is 26 goals (0.325 per game) and 64 points (0.800 per game)
Matthew Tkachuk's last season had 24 goals (0.353 per game) and 49 points (0.721 per game)

Tkachuk is also a line driver on one of the better defensive and possession lines in the league.

Obviously, Tkachuk needs to keep himself from being suspended and needs to stay healthy, while continuing his development. But it's not exactly hyperbole to suggest can play a full season and improve his point per game pace by 0.08 points per game (6-7 points over a full season), while continuing to improve his defensive game.

Stone had 1.07 PPG last year...

 

[Lunatik]

Stone had 1.07 PPG last year...

I addressed that in a future post. But thanks Yoda

 

[Randy Randerson]

You think he can be the best defesive winger and ppg? Lol

With average luck given his context he nearly was at 20, so yes it's possible.

Stone also had better than average luck in the only year that he's been ppg, I don't think he'll produce at that rate for the rest of his prime

I don't really think that Tkachuk will sustain a ppg pace for his prime ether, but the original question was if he could be Mark Stone, not if he could score at that rate. And luck aside, their 2017/18 seasons were nearly identical when one of them was 20, so I'd take that guy

Tell you what, rather than trying to dismiss the idea of Tkachuk trending towards being a Stone caliber player with lols, why don't you try to make a case that he isn't doing exactly that. If you can't do that with evidence, then your on the wrong side of the argument

 

[Deen]

I have watched Tkachuk since he cracked dawn in the league and I am still not sure what kind of player he becomes. He's special.

 

[Turning Mangiapanese]

While Stone is currently the better player of the two, no thanks. Tkachuk's just getting better and he won't be a UFA for a long time. Also I don't think Michael Stone is in Calgary's long term plans anyway so the brotherly reunion point is irrelevant.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

The Flames wouldn’t deal Tkachuk. Stone is fantastic but Chucky isn’t going anywhere.

 

[Albus Dumbledore]

With average luck given his context he nearly was at 20, so yes it's possible.

Stone also had better than average luck in the only year that he's been ppg, I don't think he'll produce at that rate for the rest of his prime

I don't really think that Tkachuk will sustain a ppg pace for his prime ether, but the original question was if he could be Mark Stone, not if he could score at that rate. And luck aside, their 2017/18 seasons were nearly identical when one of them was 20, so I'd take that guy

Tell you what, rather than trying to dismiss the idea of Tkachuk trending towards being a Stone caliber player with lols, why don't you try to make a case that he isn't doing exactly that. If you can't do that with evidence, then your on the wrong side of the argument

I rather not waste time. Stones a top 10ish winger in the game right now. If you think Tkachuk can get there then cool. I don't think he will.

 

[7th round pick]

I rather not waste time. Stones a top 10ish winger in the game right now. If you think Tkachuk can get there then cool. I don't think he will.

Its not just about Mark for Matt , in my mind i look at the two Tkachuk bros and see 2 potential ALL-STARS, When you look at the Stone Bros, its an 1- All star+ An overpaid 5/6dman, thats currently blocking an upgrade ( R Anderson. SP?) . Obviously that has nothing to do with the actual trade itself, but if either of the stones go down hill or Matt /Brady break out, alot of people will look at it as taking the Stones over the Tkachuks. I would personally Be more then happy to trade you Calgarys M.Stone for a mid round pick +cap relief.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Don't think either team does this. Stone is better than most other fans that don't watch him regularly think. But he's also not super flashy; he's just very effective. MT is very young and has already proven he's a rising NHL star with lots of talent and untapped offensive potential, which makes him too tantalizing to want to trade, and understandably so. Thus, I don't think there's much appetite from either side to do it.

As also mentioned, the Flames are looking much better on RW now thanks to the additions of Neal, Lindholm and Czarnik who can all play RW. It's just not a position of need, so if they were to hypothetically trade MT today it likely wouldn't be for a winger.

 

[Haatley]

Flames are not moving Tkachuk... period.

 

[QcFlames12]

Even if a ton of people are refusing it this deal is very close in value.

I also refuse though, salary makes this impossible and we dont really have any bad contracts so we couldnt take on Stone.

Great proposal though value wise but Tkachuk is our future captain.

 

[CraigsList]

Don't think either team does this. Stone is better than most other fans that don't watch him regularly think. But he's also not super flashy; he's just very effective. MT is very young and has already proven he's a rising NHL star with lots of talent and untapped offensive potential, which makes him too tantalizing to want to trade, and understandably so. Thus, I don't think there's much appetite from either side to do it.

Had we not acquired Neal, Czarnik, Lindholm and Ryan (who can play RW) I’d be all over a deal with Ma. Stone.

Problems that HF doesn’t understand about the Flames:

1) Our RW depth is better than C and LW now. It’s probably been about a decade since we were able to say that.
2) Stone is going to command 8-9m and rightfully so. We can’t afford him even if we wanted him.
3) Stone is also on a 1 year contract and then is a pending UFA. Tkachuk is not. Tkachuk also wants to re-sign with us.

The deal overall doesn’t make sense.

 

[Potty John]

This trade doesn’t make sense for Calgary, Tkatchuk is going to be a huge piece of this team going forward.

 

[blankall]

Even if a ton of people are refusing it this deal is very close in value.

I also refuse though, salary makes this impossible and we dont really have any bad contracts so we couldnt take on Stone.

Great proposal though value wise but Tkachuk is our future captain.

How can anyone comment on value without knowing what Stone's contract status is or what this hypothetical extension is.

In a vacuum where you don't consider contracts, I'd agree with you that the deal is more fair. In the real world, with a cost controlled Tkachuk and a soon to be UFA Stone, it's nowhere close.

 

[Ryan Michaels]

Gladly
The flames best player is J.G. I am hoping you agree.
Best means on a per game basis. If you want to bring in raw numbers, you are now arguing value; therefore, I will mainly use rate stats. I will use a two year sample as, from what i have read, it is the most predictive.
Basic Off
points per 82 over the last 2 years
J.G : 78 points
M.S : 74 points
So johnny has a slight edge; however, johnny plays with S.M, and he is better than any forward Stone has ever played with. Stone does play with ek, but cgy has a much DEF as whole. If ek isn't on the ice, Stone is playing with two pylons.
So is that 4 point difference really that impressive?

Focusing on the offence, since obviously there is no arguing defensively, this just doesn't paint as full a picture as you want to suggest. Stone had a phenomenal year offensively this season, where he played 60 games, at age 26 with a sample size of 3 previous NHL seasons producing at a 60ish point rate. Gaudreau produced over a point per game as well, only he did it over the course of a full season, for the second time in the last three seasons. The sample size you are using focuses in on Stone's best season while including Gaudreau's dip(61 points in 72 games, so pretty standard for Mark Stone) sandwiched between 160 games of point per game production.

Stone is generally underrated and if he maintains his production from the last season then he deserves to be considered one of the very best wingers in the league. I highly doubt you even believe that they're pretty much a wash offensively, although did a quick look at your post history to confirm you were also the guy who thought he was better than Benn so...I guess you probably do? 60 games of point per game plus production that diverts from a consistent three year track record is not enough, if he does it this season feel free to bump this thread and every other winger ranking thread and argue to your heart's content.

 

[6 Karlsson 5]

Focusing on the offence, since obviously there is no arguing defensively, this just doesn't paint as full a picture as you want to suggest. Stone had a phenomenal year offensively this season, where he played 60 games, at age 26 with a sample size of 3 previous NHL seasons producing at a 60ish point rate. Gaudreau produced over a point per game as well, only he did it over the course of a full season, for the second time in the last three seasons. The sample size you are using focuses in on Stone's best season while including Gaudreau's dip(61 points in 72 games, so pretty standard for Mark Stone) sandwiched between 160 games of point per game production.

Stone is generally underrated and if he maintains his production from the last season then he deserves to be considered one of the very best wingers in the league. I highly doubt you even believe that they're pretty much a wash offensively, although did a quick look at your post history to confirm you were also the guy who thought he was better than Benn so...I guess you probably do? 60 games of point per game plus production that diverts from a consistent three year track record is not enough, if he does it this season feel free to bump this thread and every other winger ranking thread and argue to your heart's content.

I originally stated Stone would be the best player on Calgary. I never said he was the best offensive player, and I did not make that claim in my post you quoted. If it came off that why, my bad. I should have been more clear.
Stone > johnny > benn ( over last 2 years )