Proposal: lucas raymond for leo carlsson

[Zegs2sendhelp]

Wings says no. They have an up and coming centerman in Danielson. Leo would be redundant. Lucas is a clutch player that wins important hockey games. He's the type of guy that wins playoff series.

This isn’t directed at you personally, just this idea

I do find these takes kinda funny tbh tho.

Zegras 0 playoff games, can’t win with him/ not a playoff performer

Raymond 0 playoff games, clutch and a guy you win with

When reality is we don’t know about either

 

[FiveTacos]

“Significantly” higher how?

Yeah I think that's clearly exaggeration. But definitely the premium positions are 1C and 1D ... if I have a guy with that sort of potential I don't let him go for anything less than an established superstar in his prime. It's why you would probably never trade Seider for a young W either, even if talent level were close or maybe even slightly in favor of the winger. 1D is simply more valuable.

Put it this way ... if both teams offered Raymond or Carlsson for, say, a high pick in this or another draft, which guy do you think most teams would take? I don't think it'd be 100% either guy, but I sure think more teams would go Carlsson than Raymond.

Raymond was a 4th overall pick who’s been proving it in the NHL as the 2nd best player in his draft class. Raymond is 22 (a whopping two years older than Carlson) and just had 30+G/70+pts

2 years is not insignificant for development at that age. Actually chronologically they're closer to 3 years apart, no? So can Carlsson surpass that by his D+4 year? I have no idea, but would you be completely stunned if he did?

As a tangent one thing Killorn mentioned this season, when Leo got hurt this year the doctors checking him out found that he hasn't finished growing yet. They think he has a few more inches left in him. He's far from finished developing even physically, never mind developing his game too.

What if Carlson stalls in development? He’s not a generational can’t miss prospwct

To be fair anyone can stall or even regress in development. I mean, who knew that when Jimmy Carson had 141 goals before he turned 21, that he wouldn't score that many goals for the remainder of his career?

 

[Dotter]

This isn’t directed at you personally, just this idea

I do find these takes kinda funny tbh tho.

Zegras 0 playoff games, can’t win with him/ not a playoff performer

Raymond 0 playoff games, clutch and a guy you win with

When reality is we don’t know about either

I can't speak for other posters or about Zegras since I don't care about him. But Lucas did play in a 'playoff' like atmosphere down the stretch when he was the best player and put on a sensational clinic to drag his team to Wins when it mattered most down the stretch. Of course DRWs came up short missing the playoffs by 0 points while still having more WINS than Capitals (who made the playoffs with more losses than Detroit).

But yes, it is fair to say Lucas is a proven clutch player when its all on the line. We can argue if it would translate to the NHL playoffs. Fact is, Raymond has always been a proven elite playoff performer. Look at his Frolunda PO record.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

I can't speak for other posters or about Zegras since I don't care about him. But Lucas did play in a 'playoff' like atmosphere down the stretch when he was the best player and putting on a clinic to drag his team to Wins when it mattered most down the stretch. Of course they came up short by 0 points while still having more WINS than Capitals (who made the playoffs with more losses than Detroit).

But yes, it is fair to say Lucas is a proven to be a clutch player when it was all on the line. We can argue if it would translate to the NHL playoffs. Fact is, Raymond has always been a proven elite playoff performer. Look at his Frolunda PO record.

Ya wasn’t meant as a direct shot at raymond I think he’s gunna be a top winger in league for years to come …. But just the fact that we on these forums make these types of comments based on minimal evidence.


Carlsson has pretty strong playoff stats on other leagues/international play, who’s to say if he’s a guy you win with or not…. He hasn’t had a chance yet.

Zegras historically has been pretty dominant in big games…. Unfortunately in his nhl career he hasn’t had the opportunity

Same goes for raymond…. And sure he had a clutch stretch at the end of the season…. And those were kinda like his playoffs but still wasn’t the playoffs

 

[Dotter]

Ya wasn’t meant as a direct shot at raymond I think he’s gunna be a top winger in league for years to come …. But just the fact that we on these forums make these types of comments based on minimal evidence.


Carlsson has pretty strong playoff stats on other leagues/international play, who’s to say if he’s a guy you win with or not…. He hasn’t had a chance yet.

Zegras historically has been pretty dominant in big games…. Unfortunately in his nhl career he hasn’t had the opportunity

Same goes for raymond…. And sure he had a clutch stretch at the end of the season…. And those were kinda like his playoffs but still wasn’t the playoffs

I'd be highly, highly disappointed if Raymond folds like Marner in the NHL playoffs. Hopefully next season we'll all find out.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

I'd be highly, highly disappointed if Raymond folds like Marner in the NHL playoffs. Hopefully next season we'll all find out.

I imagine the changing of the guard in the east is gunna start to shift…. Redwings will prob jump teams like islanders/penguins/capitals

 

[nbwingsfan]

Yeah I think that's clearly exaggeration. But definitely the premium positions are 1C and 1D ... if I have a guy with that sort of potential I don't let him go for anything less than an established superstar in his prime. It's why you would probably never trade Seider for a young W either, even if talent level were close or maybe even slightly in favor of the winger. 1D is simply more valuable.

Put it this way ... if both teams offered Raymond or Carlsson for, say, a high pick in this or another draft, which guy do you think most teams would take? I don't think it'd be 100% either guy, but I sure think more teams would go Carlsson than Raymond.



2 years is not insignificant for development at that age. Actually chronologically they're closer to 3 years apart, no? So can Carlsson surpass that by his D+4 year? I have no idea, but would you be completely stunned if he did?

As a tangent one thing Killorn mentioned this season, when Leo got hurt this year the doctors checking him out found that he hasn't finished growing yet. They think he has a few more inches left in him. He's far from finished developing even physically, never mind developing his game too.



To be fair anyone can stall or even regress in development. I mean, who knew that when Jimmy Carson had 141 goals before he turned 21, that he wouldn't score that many goals for the remainder of his career?

Yes I’m not saying any of that as a knock on Carlson as he’s a great prospect and you’re right his position is more valuable.

The wings aren’t trading their 22yo proven 1st line player and likely beat player as soon as next season for a prospect with around the same type of potential.

Maybe he turns out better, maybe he doesn’t. It’s a completely unnecessary risk for the Wings.

Same goes for Anaheim as adding Raymond now doesn’t get them any further either, they’re better off seeing what they have in Carlson as well.

I’m just pointing out the idea that Carlson having way more value is nonsense

 

[Crazy8oooo]

Potential franchise center for potential franchise winger

Carlsson d9esnt have the ceiling of the top 5Cs in the league. A franchise winger can be ahead of a franchise center in that case

Rantanen or Pastranak vs Barkov

For one, I haven’t seen anyone outside of you, stating that Raymond could be a franchise wing. Secondly, Carlsson not having the ceiling of the top 5 C’s in the league has no bearing on whether his potential is higher than Raymond’s.

 

[nbwingsfan]

For one, I haven’t seen anyone outside of you, stating that Raymond could be a franchise wing. Secondly, Carlsson not having the ceiling of the top 5 C’s in the league has no bearing on whether his potential is higher than Raymond’s.

Maybe Carlson has more potential, but how much more?

It would need to be a hell of a lot to give up a guy who’s already putting up 30g/70+pts at 22.

I don’t see the risk being worth the reward

 

[gritdash60]

Im gonna be the one, Leo Carlsson - Lucas Raymond 1:1 i would do it. And yes Raymond was the highest scoring player on the Wings last season, but Wings are shit in the middle after Larkin, Compher can stunt as 2C and Copp can sometimes stunt as 2C but neither is a real 2C.

Kasper is not it, but getting Carlsson as the 2C would be great, at least then you have the 1-2 punch in the middle. The other way of doing it for Wings is either getting a 2C from free agency or a trade, both which dont sound very feasible unless Yzerman is willing to give up some real assests for it.

Shit, throw in a 2nd as well if it what it takes.

Edit: There will be people coming at me for suggesting such a trade for a 22year old 72point player, but Detroits centers are ass, so whats the alternative? At least give me an argument on how to fix the black hole in the middle instead of just laughing, trade Seider or Edvinsson? What are the options?

 

[Crazy8oooo]

Maybe Carlson has more potential, but how much more?

It would need to be a hell of a lot to give up a guy who’s already putting up 30g/70+pts at 22.

I don’t see the risk being worth the reward

That wasn’t my point. Look back at my prior posts and you’ll see I never once said the Wings should trade Raymond. From the beginning, my only point was that Anaheim wouldn’t consider this because a potential franchise center is not someone you trade away for a winger. That was it…nothing more. I even said Raymond was a nice player. The other poster then went on a rant about how Raymond is a potential franchise wing and since Carlsson doesn’t have the ceiling as high as the top 5 centers in the league, Raymond therefore is more valuable.

I’ll repeat. I never once said Wings should trade Raymond. However, the Ducks will not trade Carlsson for a wing, which was my hole point from
The beginning.

 

[nbwingsfan]

That wasn’t my point. Look back at my prior posts and you’ll see I never once said the Wings should trade Raymond. From the beginning, my only point was that Anaheim wouldn’t consider this because a potential franchise center is not someone you trade away for a winger. That was it…nothing more. I even said Raymond was a nice player. The other poster then went on a rant about how Raymond is a potential franchise wing and since Carlsson doesn’t have the ceiling as high as the top 5 centers in the league, Raymond therefore is more valuable.

I’ll repeat. I never once said Wings should trade Raymond. However, the Ducks will not trade Carlsson for a wing, which was my hole point from
The beginning.

Yeah that’s all fair.

It makes no sense for either team.

 

[KrakenSabresMike]

Neither team does this.

Detroit should - you should take the center who’s at least as good always over the winger

 

[SuperScript29]

Detroit should - you should take the center who’s at least as good always over the winger

The problem is, one guy is already top-line good, and the other guy may or may not be good. I'll stick with Raymond thank you.

 

[LeProspector]

Why would Anaheim ever do this? Carlsson is already the better player, is bigger, younger and plays center.

 

[SuperScript29]

Why would Anaheim ever do this? Carlsson is already the better player, is bigger, younger and plays center.

Do you watch any games outside of Anaheim?

 

[Gliff]

Do you watch any games outside of Anaheim?

He isn’t a Ducks fan.

 

[Axel Sandy Pelikan]

Detroit should - you should take the center who’s at least as good always over the winger

Carlsson isn't as good today as Raymond is.

Does he become so? Yeah, probably. Or at least on the level. However... like I've said elsewhere, trading Raymond opens up a huge hole for Detroit that Carlsson does nothing to fill.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

Detroit should - you should take the center who’s at least as good always over the winger

At the moment, you take the proven player.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

Carlsson isn't as good today as Raymond is.

Does he become so? Yeah, probably. Or at least on the level. However... like I've said elsewhere, trading Raymond opens up a huge hole for Detroit that Carlsson does nothing to fill.

Just for the record I wouldn’t do it from Anaheim perspective as I think carlsson is gunna be a big piece for us going forward, I do like raymond a lot and redwings should hold on to him baring a no brainer deal.

Doesn’t carlsson kinda fill a pretty big hole in top 6 center, with potential top line center. Like personally I think it’s much harder to fill a top 6 center position than it is to fill a top 6 winger, and I think a good center can really improve the wingers around them.

A lot would depend on how high detroit is on Carlson’s potential vs danielson/Kasper upside.

Not suggesting raymond is the piece to move for top 6 center help, just saying from outside perspective that’s a pretty big question mark for the wings. I’d say top 6 center + goalie…. But they do have potential pieces coming soon at both

Danielson + kasper at center
Cossa + augstine on back end

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

What if Carlson stalls in development? He’s not a generational can’t miss prospwct

Carlsson is the epitome of a can't miss prospect. He'll be better than Raymond as soon as next year.

 

[KrakenSabresMike]

At the moment, you take the proven player.

That seems very short sighted - in like 1 year would you rather have a first line center or first line winger? I get that Raymond is the proven commodity, but one is very very, very much more valuable than the other.

I would trade any of the Sabres wingers for an equivalent version of a center at the same or younger that was a higher draft pick and has equivalent or higher upside.

Before you’re knock on the Sabres… book it that they will be better than the Red Wings next year.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

That seems very short sighted - in like 1 year would you rather have a first line center or first line winger? I get that Raymond is the proven commodity, but one is very very, very much more valuable than the other.

I would trade any of the Sabres wingers for an equivalent version of a center at the same or younger that was a higher draft pick and has equivalent or higher upside.

Before you’re knock on the Sabres… book it that they will be better than the Red Wings next year.

Again, I'll take the proven commodity for the time being.

Weird that you felt the need to make this about Buffalo though. Nobody gives a f*** whether you think they'll be better.

 

[FiveTacos]

Carlsson is the epitome of a can't miss prospect. He'll be better than Raymond as soon as next year.

I dunno bout that, but he certainly had a very impressive 18/19 yo season; like a lot of young players he didn't bring his A game consistently, but his A game sure looked like that of a legit 1C. And if it's true that he'll end up 6'4" to 6'5" he could be an absolute monster in a few years. His defensive awareness is way ahead of most youngsters too. Considering he was supposed to need another year before being NA-ready, and supposedly only an average skater, he was better than advertised.

He's pretty close to a sure bet to at least be a top 6 guy. Whether he's a franchise C, we'll see.

 

[Axel Sandy Pelikan]

That seems very short sighted - in like 1 year would you rather have a first line center or first line winger? I get that Raymond is the proven commodity, but one is very very, very much more valuable than the other.

I would trade any of the Sabres wingers for an equivalent version of a center at the same or younger that was a higher draft pick and has equivalent or higher upside.

Before you’re knock on the Sabres… book it that they will be better than the Red Wings next year.

Bwahaha. No they won’t. Not unless they remove their heads from their asses. Sorry, but Buffalo has a hell of a lot to prove before they get any benefit of the doubt.

They have all the talent in the world… and a ten cent head.