Low Octane....

[Young Lions*]

Actually fascism is not an 'actual system' of government. Fascism is a political ideology rooted in authoritarianism. It is antithetical to democracy.

Better tell Hitler, Mussolini and Franco they didn't have a system of government. Words mean things, you know. Fascism is a form of authoritarianism, it's true, but it has very specific traits and characteristics that set it apart from other authoritarian systems. More to the point, if you have an issue with authoritarian tendencies of certain groups, you could use plenty of words other than one that evokes the g-d Nazi's, but it's clear it's an intentional choice that really only serves to devalue the term itself.

What I "don't like" is authoritarianism and people not being allowed to freely make decisions in how to live their lives.

Super. Has sweet FA to do with the topic though.

“I wholly disapprove of what you say and will defend to the death your right to say it”

This has sweet FA to do with respecting those views, which is what you said earlier.

Continually labour. Or Continue to labour.

Oh dear the typo police have arrived! Lol.

 

[Dorian2]

@ Replacement:

Evens?

 

[Aerrol]

Since this thread is still going, I am going to add a bit more to it against my better judgment.

1. I think a lot of the intensity of the debate was sparked by the inflammatory language used by people against cheerleaders/the Octane to begin with. E.g.:

Awful, retrograde garbage and I'm glad it's gone, though no doubt the replacement will be equally awful and retrograde "ice girls."

I think in general using language like this just begs people to come back and argue because you look dismissive and like a jerk. I've noticed it being more common around here lately, and am trying my best to tone it down as well. Definitely contributes to a more negative vibe.

2. My own issue is that I generally get annoyed by people arguing against the existence of opportunities for people. Hence my tongue in cheek argument in favour of equal-opportunity marketing. I've seen repeated posts that there's no issue with the Octane girls enjoying themselves, but that it's awful for the Oilers to employ them in this way. Well, opportunities to work as a dancer/cheerleader are actually quite rare. The Oilers eliminating this position removes one of the few options that exist. If you really support their choice to want to pursue a career in dancing, I'm not sure you should be happy to see the position go.

Again, if the issue is the juxtaposition of female cheerleaders and male hockey players, then I'd much rather see a mixed-sex cheer squad (shouldn't be that hard). Removing options that are offensive to some just rubs me the wrong way. We're never going to agree on what's inoffensive as a society, so the trend of banning disagreeable forms of entertainment/promotion just points towards fewer and fewer options for people in my eyes, and that's a shame.

edit: Thanks for posting that Dorian. I was just thinking about all the shirtless dudes with better abs than me that I see on a daily basis as a response to his post.

 

[Jumptheshark]

got a question

instead of 20 hot females shaking what their mother gave them--how about 20 scantily clad beef cakes from the local gym doing what the girls did?

 

[Dorian2]

No problem Aerrol. Glad to do it.

 

[Dorian2]

got a question

instead of 20 hot females shaking what their mother gave them--how about 20 scantily clad beef cakes from the local gym doing what the girls did?

That's rather sexist! How do you know their Fathers didn't give it to them. Never heard of Man Boobs before.

 

[snag]

Wow...not to often I start a thread anywhere that grows to 7 pages before checking on it and it turns out I contributed the least to it LOL

 

[Aerrol]

Wow...not to often I start a thread anywhere that grows to 7 pages before checking on it and it turns out I contributed the least to it LOL

Look what you did to us. LOOK AT IT!!!!!!!!!

 

[shoop]

Better tell Hitler, Mussolini and Franco they didn't have a system of government. Words mean things, you know. Fascism is a form of authoritarianism, it's true, but it has very specific traits and characteristics that set it apart from other authoritarian systems. More to the point, if you have an issue with authoritarian tendencies of certain groups, you could use plenty of words other than one that evokes the g-d Nazi's, but it's clear it's an intentional choice that really only serves to devalue the term itself.

Took you much longer to get to the debate ender than Godwin would have implied. I didn't 'evoke' anything. You read into it and are furthering a pointless argument with an indefensible point. I've got another 15 minutes to kill here at the office so I'll humour you till I leave.

Super. Has sweet FA to do with the topic though.

Authoritarianism has everything to do with the topic.

This has sweet FA to do with respecting those views, which is what you said earlier.

Oh dear the typo police have arrived! Lol.

Either it's ok to parse the minutae of every post or it's not.

The swearing, as much as allowed by the mods, also adds incredibly to the debate.

As Aerrol states the inflammatory language explains a lot of my reaction.

No problem Aerrol. Glad to do it.

Glad you did it too. Again, sexism is directed at both genders. I think these models should have the opportunity to make a living and take advantage of the fact their creator made them really, really, really, ridiculously good looking.

 

[Replacement*]

@ Replacement:

Evens?

Certainly not evens and I know you are joking about that. Women have had to tolerate this advertising for eons. Its only lately that some advertisers are getting some attention objectifying men. Which isn't much better in anycase.

Perhaps advertisers could use one iota of imagination in involving something other than sex in every sales pitch.

I only elicited the ad angle to represent what an imbalanced world we live in. Theres this thought of freedom of thought, except media bombardments wants to fill in a lot of that. Which starts at a very early age. What is the body type of Barbie? It starts there if not earlier. With Barbie women are told what they should look like, figure, lbs, height, hair, clothes, makeup, male preference, car preference, house preference. Its a bonanza of indoctrination since so many have used that word.

I think another topic for another board is how free, is free thought.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

@Replacement:

goes both ways

here's an add for Gillette body wash...

where's the average male in this pic? what kind of message is this sending to young 13 year old boys starting to shave?

it goes both ways

 

[Replacement*]

@Replacement:

goes both ways

here's an add for Gillette body wash...

where's the average male in this pic? what kind of message is this sending to young 13 year old boys starting to shave?

it goes both ways

Maybe to some degree it does now. Most of you making that assumption are probably very young. Guess what. A sexist Mad Men world did exist for decades. It still does.

This is a mock up of a top womens magazine;

But really in content its hardly different than what the typical issue is. Cosmo is cover to cover dreck about attracting, and appealing, to males. Given that its a Womens monthly that's about as ironic as Good Homemaker..

Now ask yourself what would cause women to buy such an absolutely misogynist publication. Other than conditioning, competition being told they need to be appealing foremost, more than anything.

Meanwhile Male mags are objectified nonsense like SI swimsuit issue. In the past Playboy etc.

In both cases, whether it being male or female oriented publications females being objectified on front covers.

What a balance..


Next mission. Go to any department store. Analyze the proportion of female vs male beauty products. Guess what sex is being told they have to do the utmost to attract, to appeal. Which sex is being told that they aren't good enough without all the painted on dreck, implants, high heels, control tops etc.

 

[Dorian2]

Certainly not evens and I know you are joking about that. Women have had to tolerate this advertising for eons. Its only lately that some advertisers are getting some attention objectifying men. Which isn't much better in anycase.

Perhaps advertisers could use one iota of imagination in involving something other than sex in every sales pitch.

I only elicited the ad angle to represent what an imbalanced world we live in. Theres this thought of freedom of thought, except media bombardments wants to fill in a lot of that. Which starts at a very early age. What is the body type of Barbie? It starts there if not earlier. With Barbie women are told what they should look like, figure, lbs, height, hair, clothes, makeup, male preference, car preference, house preference. Its a bonanza of indoctrination since so many have used that word.

I think another topic for another board is how free, is free thought.

Here's something we'll both agree on buddy:

 

[Replacement*]

Here's something we'll both agree on buddy:

Interestingly an all male band

But yes, I realize a band very much based on Female Ayn Rand who did not come from this cultural morass.

But I think its been easier believing in freedom and freewill from a male oriented perspective. Given that we've had more freedom at hand.

Hey, I went to see Joan Jett with Heart a few months back. Good show. But with plenty of comments from the performers about what those female artists had to do to survive in the male rock world. I won't get into details but lets just say sex wasn't optional. Straight from the sources. I'll Leave it at that.

That's a good contextual reply hey?

 

[harpoon]

If she likes it, then let her do it I'd say. There's nothing inherently wrong with dancing or being an exhibitionist, and ultimately she'll make up her own mind when she grows up. If she wants to continue, that's fine.

Interesting discussion you guys have going on here.

I'm wondering why the bolded hasn't factored into the discussion a little more.
Do we allow for the fact that some individuals like to show off their bodies?
And that they don't find doing so to be sexist (or feminist or fascist or whatever) at all?

And would it be fair to say that there are more females than males who feel that way?
Or would that observation be no more than a symptom, long ingrained, of patriarchal culture 'teaching' women how to express their individuality?

 

[McGoMcD]

Because fascism is a historical term describing an actual system of government, not a catch-all term for something you don't like. Everything else you say here is reddit gobbiltygook

.

There was a great book called "Liberal Fascism" by Jonah Goldberg (it was a NY times best seller, it isn't just some obscure book). Any way, he describes how the term fascism is so overly used that it has almost become meaningless. However he does describe the original meaning and it was less a form of government than a ideology. It wan't a system of government in the sense it did not define any specific economic policy or legal system etc. What it was rather was a radical from of communism around the state (using communism in is most original meaning, that society should be organised around the community, the community comes before the individual). What it really meant was "nothing outside the state". In other words all forms of activities should be within the state. No religion, no family, no thought outside the state. All is devoted to the state and its uniform ideals.

Any way, I think shoop is going a bit to far in his use of the term. However, what I believe he means is a movement against free speech and free thought to have everything conform with one set of "progressive" ideals. So fascism in the sense that you are not allowed to disagree with progressive thought. It is rampant in many ways in the developed world now. People forget but Hitler was in many ways very "progressive". He ran on a largely socialist platform that promised equality, he was also a vegetarian and animal lover. He appealed to many who had a Utopian vision of society where every one was equal and a member of one all encompassing state with not out side or conflicting views. So in a broad sense the term can be used to refer to the modern politcal correctness movement, which is trying to turn the state into a system that tells people what they can and can't think. Who can and can use terms and what is and isn't acceptable. It is a pretty strong movement in the developed world today and it has facistic elements.

So in your world, Holocaust deniers, Neo-Nazis and the Westboro Baptist folks should all have their abhorrent views treated with respect. Nice.

“If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all.”


― Noam Chomsky

You don't have to like any of those ideas or thoughts. You dont' have to agree with any of it. However they have a right to express themselves. Free speech means you will be offended and it is too important to go down the slippery slope of saying certain people you don't agree with are not allowed to speak.


ps. Any way this is all getting pretty of topic. My veiws are pretty simple, men watch sports more than women, most men like a certain type of woman when it comes to attraction. This is predominately evolutionary. you don't have to like it, but you should step of your high and mighty high horse when saying such things are so bad and anti woman rights and...... so forth. It is a simple out growth of a free society where a lot of men like looking at women's body parts. Sorry to tell you, that isn't going to go away any time soon.

 

[Dorian2]

Interestingly an all male band

But yes, I realize a band very much based on Female Ayn Rand who did not come from this cultural morass.

But I think its been easier believing in freedom and freewill from a male oriented perspective. Given that we've had more freedom at hand.

Hey, I went to see Joan Jett with Heart a few months back. Good show. But with plenty of comments from the performers about what those female artists had to do to survive in the male rock world. I won't get into details but lets just say sex wasn't optional. Straight from the sources. I'll Leave it at that.

That's a good contextual reply hey?

Indeed it is.

 

[Tyrolean]

Not a fan of cheerleaders at all. Guess it's ok to make money and ogle at though.

 

[mervincm]

As a nearly 50yr old male, I honestly can't even decide how I feel about these complex issues, but a few points seem pretty straight forward. The girls need to be able to decide for themselves, and we need to do our part in creating a situation that it's possible. The environment that we raise our girls/boys in is fairly toxic to females. Decades of being told that a female's primary value is in how she appeals to men has affected both our sons and daughters. Yes we now see ads with unreasonable physical expectations for men, and that's also bad, but come on, the scale is not even close to the same, so lets concentrate on the much bigger problem.

Octane didn't help with this, as the boys on the ice were the stars and the girls in the aisles were the eye candy. It was not as bad as in could have been, the outfits were not overly revealing and the girls were not all rail thin clones with silicone "enhancements." The dance moves were more fun than sexy. It was not as good as it could have been, say mixing in men in aisles (and one day ladies on the ice?) more emphasis on the athletic, less on the sexy. I see the irony in suggesting they hire more men to improve a situation for women, but it just changes the message.
When a (usually male) announcer is addressing the crowd with two pretty young girl next to him, smiling their hearts out, well what else are they they for other than to be attractive?

I don't buy into everything I see labeled as misogynist, but I agree completely that we (mostly men) have been teaching our kids (boys and girls) that the value of females is defined by their attractiveness to men and they need to have a physical appearance that is nearly impossible to attain. It's all around them, it's wrong, it's cruel and frankly it's disgusting.

 

[shoop]

.Any way, I think shoop is going a bit to far in his use of the term. However, what I believe he means is a movement against free speech and free thought to have everything conform with one set of "progressive" ideals. So fascism in the sense that you are not allowed to disagree with progressive thought. It is rampant in many ways in the developed world now. People forget but Hitler was in many ways very "progressive". He ran on a largely socialist platform that promised equality, he was also a vegetarian and animal lover. He appealed to many who had a Utopian vision of society where every one was equal and a member of one all encompassing state with not out side or conflicting views. So in a broad sense the term can be used to refer to the modern politcal correctness movement, which is trying to turn the state into a system that tells people what they can and can't think. Who can and can use terms and what is and isn't acceptable. It is a pretty strong movement in the developed world today and it has facistic elements.




“If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all.”


― Noam Chomsky

You don't have to like any of those ideas or thoughts. You dont' have to agree with any of it. However they have a right to express themselves. Free speech means you will be offended and it is too important to go down the slippery slope of saying certain people you don't agree with are not allowed to speak.


ps. Any way this is all getting pretty of topic. My veiws are pretty simple, men watch sports more than women, most men like a certain type of woman when it comes to attraction. This is predominately evolutionary. you don't have to like it, but you should step of your high and mighty high horse when saying such things are so bad and anti woman rights and...... so forth. It is a simple out growth of a free society where a lot of men like looking at women's body parts. Sorry to tell you, that isn't going to go away any time soon.

That's exactly what I meant about progressive fascism. I agree with 99.9% of your post. Just don't agree that I went too far.

I believe the high horse is very dangerous when combined with a lack of intellectual rigor in examining the myriad of feminist ideologies. It is just a different way to vent anger at the world.

I believe I read that Goldberg book back in the day. I'll pick it up at the library and give it a re-read. Thanks for jogging my memory.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

It's not about whether THEY are happy.

So you don't give a **** about their personal feelings? Above all else they are human beings that lost their jobs, that sucks regardless of age, sex, looks, etc.

I don't judge them at all. The problem is the Oilers promoting what I consider a sexist practice, which in turn stems from a structural problem in our stereotypical view of what boys and girls should do and be.

Cheerleading is big business and has catapulted some people into the spotlight even further. Off hand Paula Abdul was a Laker girl. Not the same but Jennifer Lopez was a "Fly Girl" on "In Living Color" before her career took off. I cannot speak to each woman's career aspirations but some may want to be in dance, some may want to be discovered for cinema or TV, some may just be doing this to pay ends meat. In a world where pornography is likely bigger than it ever has been where women are often times treated very disrespectfully I find it odd that this of all things would be the "feminist" hill to die on.

Some women like to dress leaving little to the imagination and some dress much more conservatively, that is their choice. Just because an 8 year old girl see's a cheerleader scantily clad doesn't mean that she will aspire to be that cheerleader. Above all else it is about the parents of that girl teaching her and encouraging her to follow her dreams and to let her know that she can be whatever she wants to be in this world.

Also, about the Clinton argument. Really Bryan? She would be THE FIRST FEMALE PRESIDENT IN THE HISTORY OF THE UNITED STATES. Yeah, they really seem to have it too easy those women...

So what's your point? That things are actually getting better for women in North America? I agree. If she ends up holding the seat of the most powerful person on earth I'd say that's kind of a big thing. Oprah, Ellen Degeneres, Rosie O'Donnell, Martha Stewart all women that I do not find to be the least bit physically attractive yet they are all highly successful individuals worth more than I'll ever be.

There is not equal pay among men and women, that is a problem. Women or men that use their looks to get ahead has been happening from the beginning of time. The best thing to teach your children is that if they are the type to get by on looks is that looks don't last forever and if that is your biggest attribute then you will be attracting the wrong kind of attention and likely be traded in for a newer model at some point. Set your children up with a good sense of self worth, confidence, work ethic, humility and respect and then the rest is up to them.

 

[McPuritania]

I'm genuinely curious, do people share the same view of the Octane, as they do the Eskimos' cheerleaders? I'm not the most invested football fan, but I don't recall much input towards them.

 

[shoop]

I'm genuinely curious, do people share the same view of the Octane, as they do the Eskimos' cheerleaders? I'm not the most invested football fan, but I don't recall much input towards them.

The Eskimos are a mixed cheer squad. Men and women.

The women's outfits are a little less revealing than octane had. If memory serves correctly.

Whatever.

 

[McPuritania]

The Eskimos are a mixed cheer squad. Men and women.

The women's outfits are a little less revealing than octane had. If memory serves correctly.

Whatever.

Seems to me, the more logical reason why the Octane aren't a mixed squad, is because they can't do tumbles, or throws in the arena, not because of any sexist reason. I mean, that would be my logical conclusion. If that's a reason why some people are against the Octane. I dunno.

 

[Domino1]

This is so misinterpreted. One of the major pressures women and girls face is having to maintain some extreme views about what they should look like and with that foisted "ideal" currently being an anorexic body type.

Some of us are concerned how much women are impacted by so much extreme views on what they have to look like which goes on every day, every minute, in this facebook/selfie society.

To say its blatantly unhealthy influence is understatement.

For the record the women are probably foisting that "ideal" look as much if not more than men.