Lockout Looming (MOD: CBA negotiations status thread) - Part II

[Jussha]

History has shown that Fehr is not a reasonable man.

Yup and I think the players are being misled. Last CBA the players wanted to be equal partners with the NHL but I haven't heard any mention of this during any comments from Fehr.

Fehr want's guaranteed money instead of taking a % of HRR. If Fehr and the PA wanted equal partnership they would give up their stance of wanting guaranteed money regardless of revenues and change their stance to % of HRR.

 

[Edgar Halliwax]

Why do so many people not understand? The players are the "employees' AND THE PRODUCT. So being the product, they can be paid their fair share. It's not that complicated...

The same could be said for any service industry. Try again.

 

[JAX]

History has shown that Fehr is not a reasonable man.

And unfortunatly, this isn't just about the players, it's about Fehr and his reputation of winning negotiations. That's what happened when Goodenow was ready to drop 2 years of hockey to get his way. It wasn't about what's best for the players then and we'll find out soon enough if Ferh is doing what's best for the players now.

 

[Pepper]

Why do so many people not understand? The players are the "employees' AND THE PRODUCT. So being the product, they can be paid their fair share. It's not that complicated...

You're right and wrong at the same time. Players are PART of the product, not the WHOLE product. Fans like to see their favorite players but most importantly they want to see their favorite TEAM.

Also the whole question is what actually is FAIR. Is it fair that players get majority of the revenues without any business risk while the owners get a minority of the revenues while having to pay all other costs? If you call that fair, I don't know what to tell you.

 

[billybudd]

The same could be said for any service industry. Try again.

What? Waiters/bartenders/most cooks are almost never the product.

 

[ElginStreetParty07]

product [ˈprɒdʌkt]
n
1. something produced by effort, or some mechanical or industrial process
2. the result of some natural process
3. a result or consequence
4. (Chemistry) a substance formed in a chemical reaction
5. (Mathematics) Maths
a. the result of the multiplication of two or more numbers, quantities, etc.
b. Also called set product another name for intersection [3]
6. (Mathematics) See Cartesian product
[from Latin prōductum (something) produced, from prōdūcere to bring forth]

Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003

 

[billybudd]

You're right and wrong at the same time. Players are PART of the product, not the WHOLE product. Fans like to see their favorite players but most importantly they want to see their favorite TEAM.

Also the whole question is what actually is FAIR. Is it fair that players get majority of the revenues without any business risk while the owners get a minority of the revenues while having to pay all other costs? If you call that fair, I don't know what to tell you.

Fairer than signing deals you have no intention of honoring at the dollar amount you've agreed to (the Parise and Suter contracts immediately come to mind; the Wild owner sits on the CBA committee, after all).

But anyways, it's not abnormal for payroll+product costs to total more than 57% of gross revenue.

 

[meedle]

You're right and wrong at the same time. Players are PART of the product, not the WHOLE product. Fans like to see their favorite players but most importantly they want to see their favorite TEAM.

Also the whole question is what actually is FAIR. Is it fair that players get majority of the revenues without any business risk while the owners get a minority of the revenues while having to pay all other costs? If you call that fair, I don't know what to tell you.

To me:
Employer :NHL
Franchises : Edmonton, Toronto, NY, etc
Employees : Refs, players, ushers, coaches, etc
Product : Hockey

The employees change over the years but the product doesn't. The quality of the products is dependent on the rules set by the employer and the quality of the employees.

 

[habsfanatics*]

Honestly, an owner is free to sell an NHL team whenever he wants, staying in Phoenix is not a savvy business decision. If it isn't working after 10 years, it's time to move on. Don't ask the players to take a cut so that there can be cruddy franchises to continue to exist. Teams losing that much shouldn't be the expected norm for "small-market teams" in a league.

It's utter bull**** to believe that teams like Washington and Chicago aren't making any profits. Playing the accounting game is easy for them. Why its believable for some of you is beyond me...

Were you asleep when Balls tried to buy the Yotes? I'd rather believe someone who is much closer to the inside, than say, someone like you. Might be just me though.

 

[habsfanatics*]

The players need to hire an accountant so that they realize the money they lose during a lockout will never comeback and a lockout will result in more money than they will ever gain from the CBA.

 

[Riptide]

Revenues have doubled since the last lockout, while the percentage payroll costs eat up has fallen drastically.

The players percentage has gone up not down...

Edit: 54% in 05 to 57% a few years ago.

 

[billybudd]

Were you asleep when Balls tried to buy the Yotes? I'd rather believe someone who is much closer to the inside, than say, someone like you. Might be just me though.

?

Balsillie tried to buy the Coyotes with the intention of moving them to Ontario. This would mean he was in agreement with the poster you're arguing with on the topic of "should a team be in phoenix"

 

[Muffin]

The players need to stop listening to Fehr, this is more about his ego than the players. There's no way a lock out is financially beneficial to the players.

 

[Choralone]

What? Waiters/bartenders/most cooks are almost never the product.

They are NEVER (not almost never) the product unless the restaurant cuts them up in the back and serves them as food.

Even then, a restaurant is more than the raw ingredients. It's how that food is prepared, the menu selection, the ambiance and decor, the attentiveness and politeness of the staff, the timeliness of the food preparation, and more.

People are NEVER the product unless they are slaves. You pay people for a service - that service is the product.

Even in a restaurant, food isn't the product. It's a facilitating good, but the overall dining experience is the product. Otherwise, what's the difference between getting a hamburger at one restaurant versus another? What's the difference between eating the hamburger at a particular restaurant or bringing it home as takeout? What's the difference between takeout and making your own hamburger with the exact same ingredients?

 

[billybudd]

The players percentage has gone up not down...

In 2004, player salaries were in the 70s overall revenue. 57% was less than 70 something % last time I checked.

 

[KingsFan7824]

To me:
Employer :NHL
Franchises : Edmonton, Toronto, NY, etc
Employees : Refs, players, ushers, coaches, etc
Product : Hockey

The employees change over the years but the product doesn't. The quality of the products is dependent on the rules set by the employer and the quality of the employees.

The product is the logo of the NHL and particular team the player is signed with. The players are paid to basically advertise that product, by primarily playing hockey, but also charity work, interviews, etc.

Nobody is going to show up to see a jersey just sitting there in the middle of the ice. But you also don't see too many fans wearing a jersey with no logo but a players name on the back, or a hat with a players name above the brim.

Both sides need each other to make money.

 

[Riptide]

In 2004, player salaries were in the 70s overall revenue. 57% was less than 70 something % last time I checked.

In 2005 they were 54%. Sometime in the last 3 years (I don't recall exactly) they've gone up to 57%. 57 is more than 54.

 

[billybudd]

They are NEVER (not almost never) the product unless the restaurant cuts them up in the back and serves them as food.

They are "almost never" the product, not "never" the product. For example, in a restaurant with Wolfgang puck's name on the marquee, the product is the name of the chef, not the actual food.

 

[Boltsfan2029]

Why do so many people not understand? The players are the "employees' AND THE PRODUCT. So being the product, they can be paid their fair share. It's not that complicated...

I guess what's complicated is figuring out what, exactly, is "fair." Some folks think 57% (or whatever it is at the moment) is, well, more than fair already.

 

[Boltsfan2029]

so what your saying is.. NHL players should be happy with their lives.. perhaps just make a million dollar salary, meanwhile the NHL owners will be raking in profits hand over fist?

Hey, I'd be VERY happy to make a million bucks a year, no matter how much profit my boss makes. I figure that's his reward for taking all the risk and responsibility of running the company.

 

[HavlatMach9]

With teams signing players left and right as if it's the last CBA, why don't we just continue the current one.

 

[Boltsfan2029]

What the NHL sells is the highest level of hockey in the world. The players are most definitely the product that's being sold.

I dunno. To me that's like saying a movie isn't the product that's being sold, it's the actors.

The game is the product (the movie), the players are the performers (the actors). You can't have the product without the performers, of course. But I would no more pay to see hockey players sit in chairs than I would to see actors do the same. I pay to see the game or the movie. It's a vicious circle kind of thing.

 

[billybudd]

In 2005 they were 54%. Sometime in the last 3 years (I don't recall exactly) they've gone up to 57%. 57 is more than 54.

In 2004 it was 70-something percent. You can't quote me then pretend I'm talking about a different year than I was talking about. Revenues have doubled since 2004. I'm unwilling to believe non-employee operating costs went up by $50 million per team in the last 7 years. And honestly, only a fool would believe that.

 

[TheTakedown]

we'll just have to pray that the next two weeks kick negotiation into high gear. I'm praying for a Mid november start, assuming all of october is lost at this point..


f you, NHLPA. I started ou tpro player in June, but serioiusly, I think the PA is just being stupid at this point.

 

[rojac]

To me:
Employer :NHL
Franchises : Edmonton, Toronto, NY, etc
Employees : Refs, players, ushers, coaches, etc
Product : Hockey

The employees change over the years but the product doesn't. The quality of the products is dependent on the rules set by the employer and the quality of the employees.

Except the franchises are the NHL and, thus, are the employers.