Lockout Looming (MOD: CBA negotiations status thread) - Part II

[TheTakedown]

clarify that.

i dont have the math, but what he is saying is that it is an exponential reduction...

its a single percentage reduced per reduction.... a part of a part of a part...

10% makes sense

 

[NYRFAN218]

Renaud P Lavoie ‏@RenLavoieRDS
No NHL CBA talks for today.

All but official now.

 

[billybudd]

Maybe in your alternate universe should an owner be thrilled at losing money just because he owns a sports team, ridiculous. The product is the NHL, not the Phoenix Coyotes. Toronto and Montreal should make all the profits because the owner happens to own a team in a hockey crazed town. Sorry but that isn't how business works. Without the smaller market, struggling franchises there would be no league at all.

Every busy, the employees are the product, without them, there is nothing. Hockey players deserve some added money because they are the absolute best in the world at what they do, it doesn't give them the right to cripple the other needed franchises in order to have a successful league.

I question how much money the owners are actually losing. Take Florida. They lose money on paper, but Sunrise Sports makes money hand over fist (by keeping the team in Florida, Sunrise gets control of all arena-related revenues in a public building). It's exclusively a paper loss.

Furthermore, the steering committee is populated with governors of franchises that are known to NOT lose money Jacobs/Snider/etc. This is their lockout far more than it's, say, Jeff Vinik's (the Lightning haven't reduced staff or even reduced pay for staff, which tells me they are likely wanting or hoping for a quick resolution).

Revenues have doubled since the last lockout, while the percentage payroll costs eat up has fallen drastically. The notion that there are 1.5 billion more in operating costs than there were 7 years ago is not believable.

 

[Gberg]

Hockey is the product that the players are paid to produce. Players are not the product.

That's entirely wrong. Hockey is a sport, the players are the product. You can get a different product (AHL players), but people wouldn't as interested in it. Imagine if the current NHLers formed a separate entity. I'd hate to lose the history of the game, but I'd only want to watch the best of the best play hockey.

Yea yea the owners still take all the risk etc. etc.
This argument kind of goes in a circle though of Owners Vs. Players.

I look at what will end the lockout whether it's fair or not and that's with the players dropping their percentage at least a little bit.
3-5% is nothing to ask from the players, it's not a 24% rollback, in fact with THEIR projected salary growth they'd lose very little(if any) with a drop of 3-5%. This is why i'm angry at the players, they'd hardly lose millions, they'd lose a small amount and gain it back quite fast. But in the mean time we'd all get our hockey back.

But they'll only get 3-5%(52-54%) if they actually offer that firm percentage NOW. Otherwise I see the owners only taking a drop from them of 7%+.(48-50%)

I agree with you on the percentage, 52-54 should be plenty for the players. I truly hope that's what it takes. But for all we know, there are other concessions behind the scenes we don't know about. If not... god damn... it's a travesty we're losing a season for a few percentage points.

Regarding the owners and them taking the risk. They only risk their money, and for a lot of them they can get great returns. It's a pretty stupid argument. If we could only trust them on their current profits year by year, then yes, we should adjust the player's salaries accordingly.

 

[billybudd]

The players are not "the product". The production (the game) is the product. The

players are paid to sell "the product".

What the NHL sells is the highest level of hockey in the world. The players are most definitely the product that's being sold.

 

[Melrose Munch]

Random factoid. NASCAR and the NHL have the same amount of revenue.

 

[Gberg]

The players are not "the product". The production (the game) is the product. The

players are paid to sell "the product".

If you don't want to pay the product, they won't play. So go watch another product like the AHL, or KHL. Understand yet?

 

[ElginStreetParty07]

clarify that.

The 57 % of revenue is 100% of what the players are getting paid now. Bringing

that down to 52 % means that the players will be paid 91.2 % of what they are

being paid now. Thus a 8.7 % decrease in what they are being paid now.

 

[Gberg]

Everyone should be removing their facebook interests that have hockey in them, unfollowing teams, and maybe even hold some protests to show how pissed off we are.

 

[Crease]

Renaud P Lavoie ‏@RenLavoieRDS
No NHL CBA talks for today.

All but official now.

It's a shame that lockouts have become an acceptable negotiating tactic in the eyes of the owners and players.

 

[NYRFAN218]

Pierre LeBrun ‏@Real_ESPNLeBrun
Quote from Bill Daly: "We talked with the Union this morning and in light of the fact that they have nothing new to offer, or any ...." Cont

Pierre LeBrun ‏@Real_ESPNLeBrun
".. substantive response to our last proposal, there would be nothing gained by convening a bargaining session at this time. ..." Cont

Pierre LeBrun ‏@Real_ESPNLeBrun
"... I'm sure that we will remain in contact in the coming days."

 

[ElginStreetParty07]

If you don't want to pay the product, they won't play. So go watch another product like the AHL, or KHL. Understand yet?

No , because the the game is the product and the Leagues facilitate the product.

 

[LadyStanley]

It's official?

Not until midnight ET (9pm PT).

But there's at least a 99.44% chance of it happening.

 

[Crease]

No , because the the game is the product and the Leagues facilitate the product.

What makes the NHL product better than the AHL or KHL product? Or are they all equal substitutes to you?

 

[Crows*]

Not even talking on the deadline day. Looks really ****ing bad on everyone involved. What a joke

 

[ElginStreetParty07]

What makes the NHL product better than the AHL or KHL product? Or are they all equal substitutes to you?

The quality of the NHL product is better and more accessible to me than the

others. Better arenas, competition, higher quality games , players etc.... They

certainly are not equal substitutes. I wish.

 

[meedle]

What makes the NHL product better than the AHL or KHL product? Or are they all equal substitutes to you?

answer : the employees =)

 

[JAX]

It's a shame that lockouts have become an acceptable negotiating tactic in the eyes of the owners and players.

That's my biggest problem with this whole situation, the whole plan from the get go is to play tough and "hold out" instead of actually negotiating ideas and numbers....they just try to wait the other side out and hope they cave.

 

[ElginStreetParty07]

answer : the employees =)

That's the easy answer. The real answer is much more complicated than that.

 

[Jussha]

Is this a correct assumption to make?

That if a lockout lasts lets say 1/3 of the season then the NHLPA will lose 1/3 of their share of HRR correct?

I did some number crunching in excel and if the lockout wipes out at least 20% of HRR (with a 7.1% growth going forward) than a 57%-53%-52%-51%-50%-50% HRR split with no lockout (7.1% growth assumed) guarantees the NHLPA is better off accepting the 57%-50% split eventually then losing any NHL games.

 

[rdawg1234]

The 57 % of revenue is 100% of what the players are getting paid now. Bringing

that down to 52 % means that the players will be paid 91.2 % of what they are

being paid now. Thus a 8.7 % decrease in what they are being paid now.

+ revenue growth though next year no? so technically it's not a 9% decrease.

strictly speaking on that revenue wise if revenue grows by say 6%, dropping to 52% would end up giving them 1.818 billion rather than 1.881(Which unless I calculated wrong is only a 3.5% decrease revenue wise).. A measely 60 million for one year. Is it that big of a deal that they cant afford that kind of loss. Make it 54% then a gradual drop to 52 and they'd lose even less if any at all.

 

[JAX]

Everyone should be removing their facebook interests that have hockey in them, unfollowing teams, and maybe even hold some protests to show how pissed off we are.

I'm not sure the league or PA will move on negotiations if that happened.

 

[Crease]

That's the easy answer. The real answer is much more complicated than that.

Let's do a thought experiment. Let's assume (CBA rules aside) AHL players were called up to play for NHL teams and NHL players were demoted to play for AHL teams. Would the consumer demand for the two leagues change? If yes, doesn't that support the premise that the players are the product and not the game itself?

 

[ElginStreetParty07]

+ revenue growth though next year no? so technically it's not a 9% decrease.

strictly speaking on that revenue wise if revenue grows by say 6%, dropping to 52% would end up giving them 1.818 billion rather than 1.881. A measely 60 million for one year. Is it that big of a deal that they cant afford that kind of loss. Make it 54% then a gradual drop to 52 and they'd lose even less if any at all.

AGREED. The numbers thrown around do not take into account real numbers. The

fact that because of revenue growth that the players may not actually lose a

single cent IMO is very widely overlooked.

 

[LadyStanley]

brodiebrazilCSN: Seen more media coverage of #NFL ref lockout than #NHL players lately. Will change tonight. But am I wrong for thinking that's pitiful?


(From Shark TV sideline reporter)

Sigh.