Lockout III: So close, and yet so far (Moderated: see post #295)

[Fugu]

I think a vote on the October 26th offer would've passed. The bottom half of every roster is never going to see a long, front-loaded contract or work a FA bidding war. More than half the players in the league will have careers of six years or less. They know they're getting ****ed a lot more by not playing than a 12% rollback could ever do.

There's no doubt in my mind that a vote would pass.

There's no doubt in my mind that if over half of the players wanted to agree to the NHL terms in October, there would be hockey right now.

 

[YogiCanucks]

Other than stalling, what is the purpose of bringing back non-binding mediation?

If they are really that close, they should be able to get a deal done without them. I don't see the owners changing their minds on anything significant because of a mediator.

Just speculation on my part but perhaps it's not a "tactic" perhaps NHLPA is actually worried another JJ-Miller flareup will happen and derail the process. Things seem tense.

 

[Fugu]

Who knows exactly what will happen over 14 years. Things change, people change. Teams have every reason to get rid of these contracts. However unless it's in the CBA, they're going to get hit with collusion charges.

Get the term limits, and drop the variance (or increase it to 25-30%). On a 5 or 7 yr deal it's not that much of an issue.

You didn't address the issue. 10 yr CBA was proposed from the earlier 6 years; with an option at 6 yrs (not clear at whose options).

Edit: Friedman reports it's 8 yrs + option, or 10.

...and they should put what is on the table to a vote.

If that's what membership wants, that's what will happen.

 

[cheswick]

Before the season is cancelled the leadership fo the NHLPA owes it to its members to take the NHL's best offer to a vote. If the membership turns it down, that's within their right, but to have the season cancelled on the opinion of a few is not fair imo.

 

[BruinsBtn]

Guess I'll be playing this for the rest of the week.

 

[haseoke39]

There's no doubt in my mind that if over half of the players wanted to agree to the NHL terms in October, there would be hockey right now.

You'd like to think so, but I have a hard time imagining Don Fehr came to them and said, "boys, once games start getting cancelled, the costs of negotiating are going to outweigh what you're negotiating for," and then took a poll where 350+ players said they wanted to keep negotiating.

I could be wrong. Frankly, I think the most likely thing is that Fehr never told it to them that way.

 

[Fugu]

Before the season is cancelled the leadership fo the NHLPA owes it to its members to take the NHL's best offer to a vote. If the membership turns it down, that's within their right, but to have the season cancelled on the opinion of a few is not fair imo.

Why are you so certain that the majority of players' aren't calling in and making their voices heard? You're ignoring what even a pro-NHL writer like LeBrun is reporting--- that players from around the league (as in all the teams) are calling into the PA internal meeting.

Guess I'll be playing this for the rest of the week.

Sorry, it was a crappy song but the words seemed fitting for the roller coaster of the past two days.

 

[Riptide]

You didn't address the issue. 10 yr CBA was proposed from the earlier 6 years; with an option at 6 yrs (not clear at whose options).

The post was on how long term contracts (so Weber's 14 year deal, or the Suter/Parise deals) hurt franchise values. And you said that if they didn't sell the team then it's not an issue.

I'm simply saying that between signing one (or two) of those deals, and when they finish, that lots can change. And that the owner selling the team may not be doing so simply because his franchise value is 20% higher than when he bought it.

 

[IceAce]

I agree that the mediators coming back is likely a good thing. It likely means the sides are closer than they were when they last tried. If the NHL and the PA closed the prior gap by 50% then perhaps the mediators come up with some out-of-thebox creative ways to get the other 50% done .

 

[cheswick]

Why are you so certain that the majority of players' aren't calling in and making their voices heard? You're ignoring what even a pro-NHL writer like LeBrun is reporting--- that players from around the league (as in all the teams) are calling into the PA internal meeting.

I never made any allusions to what number of players are calling in to make their voices heard. I do know that when a few players spoke publicly agains the way leadership is negotiating they were ridiculed by a few other members. So despite the number of players calling in today, I personally feel that a vote should be taken. Only in that forum would a player be able express what he feels without fear of retribution.

To your point not sure how LeBrun is pro-NHL. And not sure how players from aroudn the league equates to majority of players....

 

[Chileiceman]

Why are you so certain that the majority of players' aren't calling in and making their voices heard? You're ignoring what even a pro-NHL writer like LeBrun is reporting--- that players from around the league (as in all the teams) are calling into the PA internal meeting.

How is Lebrun pro NHL? Is anyone who not unabashedly pro PA (Brooks, Haggerty, Proteau) pro NHL? I think he's a reasonable voice in all of this. I will grant you that there are some league shills (Cox, Dreger to an extent), but Lebrun seems pretty fair and balanced to me.

 

[Fugu]

Thanks to Canadian Guy for the link:

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/opinion/2012/12/nhl-players-in-tough-spot.html

The offer is not perfect. The NHLPA still doesn't like the five-year term limits and eight-year (plus options) length of the CBA. But the league has dropped its demands for changes to salary arbitration and free agency. While things are moving closer, the players are giving up more than they are gaining.

For a group of them, that is unacceptable. And when things broke down in the early hours of Thursday morning, they made that point very clear. But...

There has been a lot of work done overnight from within to calm down some of the angriest parties on both sides. They are so much closer, and so much work has been done, that too many people want to prevent failure.

Obviously some fissures on both sides.

It was probably a very good idea the meetings ended when they did. However, the players' biggest issue now might be internal. I can't quantify numbers, because there are 700 of them, but it's safe to say that there is also a group that will want to vote on the NHL's proposal if the union chooses to walk away.

That's not a great position to be in. They'd basically be voting on an offer they don't like, an offer not recommended by the leader or the negotiating committee. That never ends well for anyone.

Yes, there are other options. Decertification has been threatened, but to this point not acted upon.

Unless that represents a majority, a CBA cannot be approved regardless. Decertification only requires a third of the membership. If the divide is that great, I don't think it's good for anyone involved.

 

[colchar]

I'm not sure what mediators would accomplish at this stage. Neither side seems to have any problems communicating what they want and mediation wasn't effective before.

They were further apart when the mediators were last there. If they are closer now perhaps having mediators join in might help them get over the final hurdles. Maybe the players think they could get a deal done if only some impartial voices would weigh in.

 

[drew5580]

Whatever happens, NHLPA members should be able to have a full vote on the latest offer on the table.

Let's hope that militatants like Miller and Toews won't derail the entire process.

thought i heard that Miller actually stood up and yelled to keep people in the room and working yesterday rather than break up.

could be wrong though

 

[Pepper]

How is Lebrun pro NHL? Is anyone who not unabashedly pro PA (Brooks, Haggerty, Proteau) pro NHL? I think he's a reasonable voice in all of this. I will grant you that there are some league shills (Cox, Dreger to an extent), but Lebrun seems pretty fair and balanced to me.

Well, there are people here who don't understand that even though you work for TSN, which is owned by part-owner of the Leafs, doesn't automatically make you pro-league.

And most of those same people will call you pro-league if you're not pro-PA.

 

[colchar]

I think it is time for NHLPA members to call their union reps and ask for a vote on the latest proposal from the owners.

I think it is time for the owners to call for a vote amongst their membership on the latest offer from the players.

 

[Fugu]

The post was on how long term contracts (so Weber's 14 year deal, or the Suter/Parise deals) hurt franchise values. And you said that if they didn't sell the team then it's not an issue.

I'm simply saying that between signing one (or two) of those deals, and when they finish, that lots can change. And that the owner selling the team may not be doing so simply because his franchise value is 20% higher than when he bought it.

I have zero sympathy on this one. No one forced a team to offer a cap-circumventing contract. That it hurts a franchise's value, if true, is more indicative of the piss poor business decisions by the very sharp- dressed business men.... aka owners.


( hope someone gets my ZZ Top reference...)

 

[Riptide]

The offer is not perfect. The NHLPA still doesn't like the five-year term limits and eight-year (plus options) length of the CBA. But the league has dropped its demands for changes to salary arbitration and free agency. While things are moving closer, the players are giving up more than they are gaining.

Sadly for the players, it's been like this since the start. The moment they could not do a full 82 games, they've been giving up more than their gaining.

Does wasting another week or two to get an extra 30-50m out of the NHL in make whole, while missing more games really make sense?

If I was the PA I'd fully understand them telling the league they can have one or the other but not both (contract limits or variance).

They are very very close, and you would think that a deal is definitely possible.

 

[colchar]

Just speculation on my part but perhaps it's not a "tactic" perhaps NHLPA is actually worried another JJ-Miller flareup will happen and derail the process. Things seem tense.

A reasonable assumption.

 

[colchar]

Before the season is cancelled the leadership fo the NHLPA owes it to its members to take the NHL's best offer to a vote. If the membership turns it down, that's within their right, but to have the season cancelled on the opinion of a few is not fair imo.

The same thing can be said about the owners. There is a very small and select group that is in charge of negotiations from the owner's side too so why are you putting this all on the players?

 

[Riptide]

I have zero sympathy on this one. No one forced a team to offer a cap-circumventing contract. That it hurts a franchise's value, if true, is more indicative of the piss poor business decisions by the very sharp- dressed business men.... aka owners.

Yes that's right... it's all the owners fault. Agents play one team off against the other. Owners need star players to have on-ice results. I'm not saying its' all the players fault, or all the owners fault, or all the agents fault. But rather a combination of all 3 due to how the system is in place.

And to make matters worse, teams cannot appear to be in collusion. If suddenly all GMs had directives from their individual owners saying 5 yr contracts max, the PA would sue the league for collusion - regardless if each individual owner reached that decision on their own for their own reasons (insurance costs, franchise values, etc).

 

[mossey3535]

The same thing can be said about the owners. There is a very small and select group that is in charge of negotiations from the owner's side too so why are you putting this all on the players?

They have more to lose so it is more upon their own leadership to the right thing by them.

 

[colchar]

thought i heard that Miller actually stood up and yelled to keep people in the room and working yesterday rather than break up.

could be wrong though

I heard that too. Jacobs wanted to walk out and Miller let loose saying he should stay because players can walk out too but they hadn't done so.

 

[cheswick]

The same thing can be said about the owners. There is a very small and select group that is in charge of negotiations from the owner's side too so why are you putting this all on the players?

I only say to the players cause there are only 30 owners. Its not difficult to guage what the majority feel. Bettman just met with them. He knows very well what teh sentiment is within the group and would know when a deal would be good enough for them. Many have said time and time again if one thing Bettman is excellent at is reading the ownership group.

The players on the other hand are numerous. When you have 10 or 15 regularily negotiating on behalf of over 700 its difficult to know what the majority is really feeling. Expecially when a large chunk of them are playing over seas.

 

[colchar]

Now that the two Canadian owners have left I'm wondering what that says about the whole process. Tannenbaum said they would stay until they got a deal but he is gone. Do they bring in other owners to take their place and, if so, does that set the whole negotiation process back a couple of days? or do reps from those teams stay in there despite the owners being gone (ie. Burke)?