Lockout II - Moderated: Talk about your plenty, Talk about your ills...

[TrillMike]

Are they still meeting?

 

[Shrimper]

Are they still meeting?

A lack of reports to say they've ended would suggest so. 4 hours so far. They had 6 hours of meeting yesterday but started late so I dare say they could do 10.

 

[haseoke39]

The NBA's cap froze or grew for two seasons. http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q13

The NFL has guaranteed that players will earn 99% of the Cap for two years until the floors are set at 89% of the Cap in 2013.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/07/30/per-team-spending-minimum-doesnt-apply-until-2013/

That 47% you talked about for the NFL is actually the minimum the players will earn, not the maximum that teams will pay.

On the NBA: perhaps so, but then the cap dropped down to 44% later on, according to your link. That's just the same thing as the NHL's make whole provision, in effect.

As for what you said about the NFL, the requirement to spend to the cap isn't germane here, and I see nothing in the link about the 47% and how you get there.

Still, thanks for the effort, but I think my point stands (at least until there's some better info on the table). And even if it doesn't, would it be so crazy for a league that makes half of what these other league's make to ask its players to take less? The fixed costs of running a franchise are likely to be similar, so if the total take is less, then the player's take should be less as well.

 

[KINGS17]

A little tidbit on declining attendance for various sports franchises:

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/...ns-houston-astros-arizona-diamondbacks-112912

You will notice that MLB far and away has the most teams on the list. Yeah, that's the model to follow.

 

[Hanklite*]

Pierre LeBrun ‏@Real_ESPNLeBrun

NHL/NHLPA meeting with mediators still going on....


Do we know if both groups have been meeting the whole time or still separate meetings for both parties?

 

[Shrimper]

Won't know till it's over probably.

 

[CerebralGenesis]

A little tidbit on declining attendance for various sports franchises:

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/...ns-houston-astros-arizona-diamondbacks-112912

You will notice that MLB far and away has the most teams on the list. Yeah, that's the model to follow.

Ya really.

But they aren't designed for parity in any sense of the term. The fans take notice and move on. I'm glad the NHL won't go down that route, although changes are necessary.

 

[KINGS17]

Ya really.

But they aren't designed for parity in any sense of the term. The fans take notice and move on. I'm glad the NHL won't go down that route, although changes are necessary.

I agree. The NHL is a league where revenue is driven by the gate. Lack of parity, or at least the ability for the GMs to compete for talent on a somewhat level playing field would cause a substantial drop in attendance in many markets.

 

[Riptide]

By the way, from what I've read, the players have come into this prepared to weather the lockout, much like the owners did last time. Much of the union's time in the earlier part of the year was spent helping the players get their financial houses in order to do so. In other words, they're prepared to "come out of this poorer". It's not about money.

It's ALWAYS about money. The players *****ing that they want to be paid in full is about money.

And even if the players are prepared to weather the lockout... last time around some 200 players never played another NHL game. Assuming they lose a full season, it'll likely the same this time around.

 

[Hanklite*]

From 2004:

March 22-25: NHLPA top brass and players' executive committees spend four days in Pebble Beach, Calif. While out west, they come up with the idea of upper and lower limit on salary cap. The idea is the basis that leads to new collective bargaining agreement.

April 4: The biggest turning point in the CBA. The union introduces the upper and lower limit to NHL. The league finds merit in the idea.


Do we need to see a huge creative solution like that time to finally get a deal... Didn't think we would be it may go that route.

 

[Hanklite*]

Yeah, the law always thinks outside of the box and refers to certain actions as completely different ones! Is this a lock-out, a strike, or has the league simply contracted all 30 teams and ceases to exist? It doesn't matter: They're all the same in the eyes of the law (and in the eyes of some in the public, apparently).

wow, you really dont get it.

its a joke... Saying they contracted all 30 teams. No more teams. No hockey being played. Not that hard to understand.

 

[Morgoth Bauglir]

Yeah and we also watch the games and realize that there are already teams with barely any NHL level talent on them. Think of how great the product would be with more good players spread among less teams, it would be outstanding.

I don't think NHL hockey is good enough tbh, I think the league's biggest problem is the quality of play over an entire season, sure we get good games here and there and playoffs are usually entertaining, but it is hard to watch a lot of the regular season games.

How long have you been watching the NHL? The reason I ask is I need a point of reference as to what you're comparing today's NHL to. I've been watching since the early to mid 1980s it doesn't seem to me that the average talent per team has really changed that much from then to now. The only real difference I can tell in talent is that since the last lockout the outliers on either side of the curve have been drawn closer the mean which has resulted in unprecedented parity.

To my mind, contraction does far more damage to the league's credibility than any superficial rise in the average talent per team can possibly make up for. The league is never going back to Original Six (before my time) levels of talent concentration. Contraction is simply a death rattle from a league that's voluntarily killing it's own major league status.....and THAT is bad for business.

 

[Riptide]

So players, who have had their salaries be affected by escrow for the last seven years, this summer got the idea that they were going to be paid the nominal values in their contracts?

This "look at all the contracts they signed this summer" discussion is nonsense. They sign a lot of contracts every summer. That's when contracts are signed. Many of the big name UFAs the last couple have negotiated big signing bonuses because they know there is a big chance of the players salary share going down. The players and their agents know very well that contracts are regulated by the CBA.

The only questionable contracts signed were the 6-7 year RFA contracts (Boston, Edmonton) signed this summer and it's hard to argue that any player got screwed on those.

As a sound byte "why did they sign those contracts when they have no intention of honoring them" might convince the more impressionable of us but anyone with a clue knows that "honoring" is and will be regulated by the CBA.

And it's something that really pisses me off. I get that they do not want their cheques to decrease by 10% (or whatever the math is when you go from 57% to 50%). However every SPC signed states that it's subject to the CBA. And as they all found out last time around... that could mean anything that both sides agree to.

Why should they have expected it to be impacted by the new CBA? In two lockouts last year, used so often as comparables, no one else's deals were affected detrimentally by their new CBA.

And in the lockout in 04 it did... why would they suddenly think it didn't?

 

[DyerMaker66*]

wow, you really dont get it.

its a joke... Saying they contracted all 30 teams. No more teams. No hockey being played. Not that hard to understand.

A pretty terrible one since, as I pointed out, a lockout /= contraction.

"The 2012-13 season was both the worst, and the greatest for the NHL as it saw a contraction and sebsequent expansion of the league's 30 teams."

Does that make any sense at all?

 

[DyerMaker66*]

And it's something that really pisses me off. I get that they do not want their cheques to decrease by 10% (or whatever the math is when you go from 57% to 50%). However every SPC signed states that it's subject to the CBA. And as they all found out last time around... that could mean anything that both sides agree to.

So the PA giving themselves "delinked raises" is just part of the bargaining process, in your opinion?

 

[Conflicted Habs fan]

Bettman is operating on a timeline regardless of what the NHLPA is saying, his bargaining style is to drag things out until what..Jan1 2012? Jan1, 2013? What really is behind this strategy is not so much to capitulate the NHLPA again but to 1) keep the owners in line to his control 2) punish the whole NHL hockey world because his sunbelt teams are unsuccessful.
Bettman is hijacking the system and he clearly has to go, and the Canadian teams especially need to take greater control of the game.
The only logically course of action for the players to take would be to simply not comply with Bettman's demands and let this drag as long as Bettman apparantly is wanting to go, this could take multiple years here. There is a market for high performance hockey players but the NHL in it's present intransigent form is the problem. Bettman has lost any sense of reality. Maybe the Canadian teams can split and form it's own NHL organization.

 

[FakeKidPoker*]

@Real_ESPNLeBrun

NHL-NHLPA meeting with mediators over. Told no progress

 

[UsernameWasTaken]

Pierre LeBrun ‏@Real_ESPNLeBrun

Source also says no more meetings with mediators planned

 

[CBJWerenski8]

Katie Strang ‏@KatieStrangESPN

#CBA Can confirm meeting is over for the day. No progress. Sounds like that's it for mediation process entirely. Two sides too far apart

 

[Tkachuk4MVP]

This is almost comical now.

 

[Riptide]

So the PA giving themselves "delinked raises" is just part of the bargaining process, in your opinion?

Absolutely it is. Doesn't mean I like it, or agree with it. However in a CBA negotiation, either side can ask for whatever they want... whether they get it is a different matter.

The PA could just as easily be asking for a single room for every player, and 50% more on per-diems.

Just like the NHL is asking for an extra year to FA, contract caps, etc. Them asking for it doesn't mean they'll receive it.

 

[CerebralGenesis]

That went exactly as expected.

 

[Morgoth Bauglir]

Bettman is operating on a timeline regardless of what the NHLPA is saying, his bargaining style is to drag things out until what..Jan1 2012? Jan1, 2013? What really is behind this strategy is not so much to capitulate the NHLPA again but to 1) keep the owners in line to his control 2) punish the whole NHL hockey world because his sunbelt teams are unsuccessful.
Bettman is hijacking the system and he clearly has to go, and the Canadian teams especially need to take greater control of the game.
The only logically course of action for the players to take would be to simply not comply with Bettman's demands and let this drag as long as Bettman apparantly is wanting to go, this could take multiple years here. There is a market for high performance hockey players but the NHL in it's present intransigent form is the problem. Bettman has lost any sense of reality. Maybe the Canadian teams can split and form it's own NHL organization.

There's no need to turn this into a Canada vs the US thing.

 

[KidRobot]

lol I love that the mediators took 2 days and threw their hands up and just went home. No hope for this season.

 

[CerebralGenesis]

Bettman is operating on a timeline regardless of what the NHLPA is saying, his bargaining style is to drag things out until what..Jan1 2012? Jan1, 2013? What really is behind this strategy is not so much to capitulate the NHLPA again but to 1) keep the owners in line to his control 2) punish the whole NHL hockey world because his sunbelt teams are unsuccessful.
Bettman is hijacking the system and he clearly has to go, and the Canadian teams especially need to take greater control of the game.
The only logically course of action for the players to take would be to simply not comply with Bettman's demands and let this drag as long as Bettman apparantly is wanting to go, this could take multiple years here. There is a market for high performance hockey players but the NHL in it's present intransigent form is the problem. Bettman has lost any sense of reality. Maybe the Canadian teams can split and form it's own NHL organization.

So Bettman doesn't listen to the owners and is just mad that Atlanta was relocated? Therefore he hates hockey and is the cause for this lockout. If it wasn't for America, hockey would be alive and strong in Canada. Well not hockey, but the NHL.

Yikes. What hasn't Bettman and Obama destroyed yet? Nothing methinks.