Lockout I - Moderated: "I don't think there's a punch-line scheduled, is there?"

Status
Not open for further replies.

KINGS17

Smartest in the Room
Apr 6, 2006
32,454
11,493
How much less do you think the players would have to make in order for owners to pay for their own arenas? Just wondering.

It is a good question, but I don't have a good answer for you. Real estate prices and the cost of construction vary widely depending on the location.

If I had to hazard a guess I think something around cutting around $10M off the salary cap over the length of an individual loan for an arena might be in the ballpark.
 

Fugu

RIP Barb
Nov 26, 2004
36,952
220
϶(°o°)ϵ
Except that player costs are controlled at 57% and will go to 50% at some point it seems.

The most control owners could have is getting rid of the cap.

Exactly. It's the linkage between total revenue and the cap range that removes basic controls from teams. They wanted to reel in the spending of 5-6 teams and ended up creating a monster that forces weak teams to overspend. Revenue sharing, and very high levels of RS, are the only way to make this work-- but I'm not a fan of massive RS either unless I know the ROI (in total and amount of time for the return).

Anyway I think what fugu points out is that the system (cap) is the problem and you can't manipulate a free market. The counterpoint is that monopolies override supply and demand for which there are many examples and as others pointed out the nhl (as a whole) is a kind if monopoly.

Unfortunately the system they chose is broken imo due to revenue disparity per team but player split at league level. Which is long discussed on this board.


Thank you. That's it in a nutshell. The fundamental problem is revenue disparity. Until and unless the league makes that their primary focus in designing any economic system, they're just going to continue creating complexity that backfires. To address revenue disparity, they have to have a very clearly defined payback that justifies the wealth redistribution.
 

Fugu

RIP Barb
Nov 26, 2004
36,952
220
϶(°o°)ϵ
It is a good question, but I don't have a good answer for you. Real estate prices and the cost of construction vary widely depending on the location.

If I had to hazard a guess I think something around cutting around $10M off the salary cap over the length of an individual loan for an arena might be in the ballpark.


I'm not sure its even that simple, KINGS. Consider Jerry Jones and his football stadium. Leather seats? World's largest HD screens to enhance the attendees' experience? The list goes and on, especially in the luxury suites that are built. I think that the owner/investors can probably afford X, but if they can get a municipality to pay for it (or share the cost), the list of amenities increases. They extract the maximum they can when someone else is paying for it; or add extras that wouldn't be necessary if they had to foot the entire bill. The smell of money, especially public money, attracts a lot of 'bidders' who all add their own lucrative margins that might not be there if you were paying for it out of your own pocket and reviewing every receipt.
 

freedomisamyth

Registered User
Nov 10, 2010
64
0
Contraction.

Furthermore, the more you tinker with artificial restraints, the more you increase both the complexity and number of unintended consequences. The NHL didn't adopt the idea of a cap+linkage because they knew they'd lose money by going to a 54-57% range. They probably believed at that time that that was a very acceptable range ~because~ they had cost certainty.

The certainty overlooked was that it certainly would cost something, and that 'something' wasn't necessarily a good thing for everyone. (Which actually was predictable as I keep reminding you.)

Also, in attempting then to make a cap manageable from a roster building perspective, they had to throw in things like variance and buyout formulas, the salary averaging, bonus considerations and lack of bonuses as an option, and so on.

Each step you take in one direction potentially makes it difficult to do something unintended in another direction that may be beneficial or mitigating of your risks. This all speaks to why letting markets function as efficiently as possible because you then can react to actual conditions, not be shackled into something that removes your ability to maneuver.

That's really one beef I have with salary caps. The GMs' toolbox is quickly being depleted of options that actually help them control costs and any ingenuity they can bring to the table.

I dislike that player movement is stymied because I believe that's actually good for teams and fans, and maybe even players. Instead of having this based on 'hockey' decisions, they're cap decisions now.

And yes, free market and such. The leagues try to create an artificial market on player salaries because they want to ignore the real market they cannot control--- the economics of the real world in which the franchises must operate. When fans don't show up in buildings, and no one pays for a TV contract, or there's a lack of sponsorship, etc., this is the real market speaking to them. It has made a choice, and the choice is --- we're not going to go to your games at all, or certainly not going to pay $60. (Refer to the footprint argument below as well.)

Their answer is to try to lower what all players earn to make the team that can garner $25/ticket viable. Please consider what you pay for a college football ticket to gauge how low that actually is, and if you think the owner who has that team is in the right business (pro sports).

Of course, you will come back with the national footprint argument and the massive TV contract, and I will remind you that it's set for the next 10+ years and the current batch of owners will have cashed out by then.

There isn't an example anywhere in the world that shows market manipulation and restraints can escape real market conditions. It's not a hypothesis or choice (that market principles exist), it's a demonstrable fact by simply starting with supply and demand for anything that's for sale anywhere in the world.

I don't think you make a very strong argument for contraction being the optimal solution for this problem. While I agree it would definitely fix the issues, it'd be quite the Pyrrhic victory. I can see a whole list of downsides to that for everyone involved:

1. Players losing jobs
2. owners of contracted teams losing their investment (and making the league look bad to people who may be inclined to invest in the league in the future)
3. less upward salary pressure (bad for players, not so bad for owners) due to their being more qualified people fighting for fewer spots.
4. Less growing of the popularity of the game nationwide (you can't deny that having a team in your city increases the chances of you becoming a hockey fan).

Those are just the obvious ones, and there are many other possible problems.

I don't understand how these consequences are somehow considered less worse than the things you outlined above, which to me sound pretty minor. Obviously it'd be more complicated and more work to design a better system, but it's far from an unsolvable problem.

I realize you seem to think it's inevitable that the big revenue teams will pull the floor up too high for the smaller revenue teams to ever make money, but there's a lot of assumptions inherent in that outlook. The biggest one is the assumption that there is no cap in revenue on the high revenue teams and they will continue to grow at the rate they have been. How do you know that we aren't getting close to the maximum for those markets? Ticket prices can only go up so far. Frankly I think it's just as likely that the majority of future revenue increases will come from the smaller revenue markets, as well as league wide revenue sources that help everyone, because those are the areas with the largest room for growth. If that happens, big increases in revenue sharing (as has been agreed to), and a slightly lower percentage of revenue going to the players could make all the difference that is needed to make a league where all the franchises are stable. I think contraction is ESPECIALLY silly in a country going through recession, because how do you know that if things were booming again it wouldn't be a perfectly viable market? Why jump ship an abandon all that is good with having the team if you can possibly make a scenario that works by changing other parameters?

Phoenix is the one problem that may be intractable, but I am not entirely convinced of that. They may just need a few more years to grow things. I think that is the biggest problem I have with everyone saying contraction would be so great - it takes time to build a good market in somewhere that isn't naturally a good market, and a lot of things have to go right. It has to be considered a long term project. Even if it is ultimately an unwinnable scenario, moving it makes way more sense than contracting it. There are still a few markets that are likely to be better.
 

SundherDome

Y'all have to much power
Jul 6, 2009
14,602
6,777
Minneapolis,MN
how about we do this, keep the contracting the same and put a clause that prevents back diving, then the 180 million or so they are apart on they split down the middle and the instead of the players seeing a dime it gets divided up into each of the 30 markets and the 3 million or so goes to the homeless shelters, abused women programs and veteran affairs ( you know give back to the fans), then the owners take the 90 million they save and do the same exact thing. Then after all that the nhlpa and the league heads go out have a few beers and then go out back rochambeau each other hit up a strip club make an announcement to the public in the morning that there will be a season and everybody is happy and the fan base isnt as furious. who's with me ??
 

Crease

Chief Justice of the HFNYR Court
Jul 12, 2004
24,209
25,985
Curious what was on the mediators' agenda today with each individual group. Spelling out a BATNA? Anyone familiar with the early stages of mediation?
 

ottawah

Registered User
Jan 7, 2011
3,490
621
Story on mediation

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=410437

I'm not exactly hopeful after looking at this, there are several comments from the a sports management professor that makes me think the players will absolutely not want to listen to them, even if what they say is realistic (IMHO)

One reason for the gap is the clause in the proposal that stated the players' share couldn't go down from year to year -- a mechanism meant to protect them in the event revenues fall. NHLPA executive director Donald Fehr said last week that it was a good tradeoff since the players' share would drop from 57 per cent to 50 per cent in the new deal, but Kent doesn't believe the NHL would ever accept those terms.

"I know why the players would offer that, (but) in principle it doesn't seem like it's a deal that anyone in their right mind would accept -- where you get half of everything that grows and you don't take any risk on it not growing," he said.


"Both sides feel they can get a better deal by waiting it out, but my view is that time only helps owners in these negotiations," said Kent. "And it's not just in this particular negotiation, but in any labour dispute. Employees are always at a disadvantage because salary lost is never regained.

"Whereas owners were there before the players and they'll be there after the players and they have plenty of time to make up anything that is lost."



I'm not convinced the players will take comments like that constructively.
 
Last edited:

Freudian

Clearly deranged
Jul 3, 2003
50,521
17,494
I'm not exactly hopeful after looking at this, there are several comments from the mediator that makes me think the players will absolutely not want to listen to them, even if what they say is realistic (IMHO)

It was comment from a professor, not the mediator.

I expect the mediator to tell the players that there is no way the owners would ever accept 100% of the risk of low growth, of course. But I think Fehr already knows this. He's the one including those poison pills in his proposals to start with.
 

Freudian

Clearly deranged
Jul 3, 2003
50,521
17,494
Curious what was on the mediators' agenda today with each individual group. Spelling out a BATNA? Anyone familiar with the early stages of mediation?

I think they are trying to find out what is the most important for both sides. I assume they will at first say that everything they propose is crucial, so it's probably going to take quite some time finding out what is a need/want/possible sacrifice.

I think we'll find out after tomorrow if this has any chance of succeeding. If one or both sides aren't going to take the process seriously, I don't think the mediators will waste their time more than that.
 

Dado

Guest
They need to cut their losses, not just keep lowering cost to the level that the poorest teams can afford. That level is probably so low that it would indeed kill off player unions once and for all.

If they actually succeeded in doing that, it would open the door for another WHA poaching scenario.
 

The Apologist

Apologizing for Leaf garbage since 1979
Oct 16, 2007
12,251
2,966
Leaf Nation Hell
Contraction.

Furthermore, the more you tinker with artificial restraints, the more you increase both the complexity and number of unintended consequences. The NHL didn't adopt the idea of a cap+linkage because they knew they'd lose money by going to a 54-57% range. They probably believed at that time that that was a very acceptable range ~because~ they had cost certainty.

The certainty overlooked was that it certainly would cost something, and that 'something' wasn't necessarily a good thing for everyone. (Which actually was predictable as I keep reminding you.)

Also, in attempting then to make a cap manageable from a roster building perspective, they had to throw in things like variance and buyout formulas, the salary averaging, bonus considerations and lack of bonuses as an option, and so on.

Each step you take in one direction potentially makes it difficult to do something unintended in another direction that may be beneficial or mitigating of your risks. This all speaks to why letting markets function as efficiently as possible because you then can react to actual conditions, not be shackled into something that removes your ability to maneuver.

That's really one beef I have with salary caps. The GMs' toolbox is quickly being depleted of options that actually help them control costs and any ingenuity they can bring to the table.

I dislike that player movement is stymied because I believe that's actually good for teams and fans, and maybe even players. Instead of having this based on 'hockey' decisions, they're cap decisions now.

And yes, free market and such. The leagues try to create an artificial market on player salaries because they want to ignore the real market they cannot control--- the economics of the real world in which the franchises must operate. When fans don't show up in buildings, and no one pays for a TV contract, or there's a lack of sponsorship, etc., this is the real market speaking to them. It has made a choice, and the choice is --- we're not going to go to your games at all, or certainly not going to pay $60. (Refer to the footprint argument below as well.)

Their answer is to try to lower what all players earn to make the team that can garner $25/ticket viable. Please consider what you pay for a college football ticket to gauge how low that actually is, and if you think the owner who has that team is in the right business (pro sports).

Of course, you will come back with the national footprint argument and the massive TV contract, and I will remind you that it's set for the next 10+ years and the current batch of owners will have cashed out by then.

There isn't an example anywhere in the world that shows market manipulation and restraints can escape real market conditions. It's not a hypothesis or choice (that market principles exist), it's a demonstrable fact by simply starting with supply and demand for anything that's for sale anywhere in the world.

So you contract to what, ten teams?

I strongly disagree with this. This league can and will grow. When done right, new markets will thrive. However, in a free market none of these teams can ever hope to compete with the Torontos of the league. Luckily, the NHL is NOT a free market. The owners can make much more money with an expanded fan base and the players can make much more money with more jobs available.

Contraction makes no sense for anyone involved, business wise or job wise. It just won't happen.

That being said, there is not 30 north American markets that can support hockey at a 50m floor. Seems like there is only one possible conclusion here.
 

The Apologist

Apologizing for Leaf garbage since 1979
Oct 16, 2007
12,251
2,966
Leaf Nation Hell
I don't think you make a very strong argument for contraction being the optimal solution for this problem. While I agree it would definitely fix the issues, it'd be quite the Pyrrhic victory. I can see a whole list of downsides to that for everyone involved:

1. Players losing jobs
2. owners of contracted teams losing their investment (and making the league look bad to people who may be inclined to invest in the league in the future)
3. less upward salary pressure (bad for players, not so bad for owners) due to their being more qualified people fighting for fewer spots.
4. Less growing of the popularity of the game nationwide (you can't deny that having a team in your city increases the chances of you becoming a hockey fan).

Those are just the obvious ones, and there are many other possible problems.

I don't understand how these consequences are somehow considered less worse than the things you outlined above, which to me sound pretty minor. Obviously it'd be more complicated and more work to design a better system, but it's far from an unsolvable problem.

I realize you seem to think it's inevitable that the big revenue teams will pull the floor up too high for the smaller revenue teams to ever make money, but there's a lot of assumptions inherent in that outlook. The biggest one is the assumption that there is no cap in revenue on the high revenue teams and they will continue to grow at the rate they have been. How do you know that we aren't getting close to the maximum for those markets? Ticket prices can only go up so far. Frankly I think it's just as likely that the majority of future revenue increases will come from the smaller revenue markets, as well as league wide revenue sources that help everyone, because those are the areas with the largest room for growth. If that happens, big increases in revenue sharing (as has been agreed to), and a slightly lower percentage of revenue going to the players could make all the difference that is needed to make a league where all the franchises are stable. I think contraction is ESPECIALLY silly in a country going through recession, because how do you know that if things were booming again it wouldn't be a perfectly viable market? Why jump ship an abandon all that is good with having the team if you can possibly make a scenario that works by changing other parameters?

Phoenix is the one problem that may be intractable, but I am not entirely convinced of that. They may just need a few more years to grow things. I think that is the biggest problem I have with everyone saying contraction would be so great - it takes time to build a good market in somewhere that isn't naturally a good market, and a lot of things have to go right. It has to be considered a long term project. Even if it is ultimately an unwinnable scenario, moving it makes way more sense than contracting it. There are still a few markets that are likely to be better.
Well said. You also can't ignore the fact that cost control means more money for the big teams. A lower cap means more money in the pockets of the Leafs. A more successful Phoenix means more money in the pockets of the Leafs. A better US market, tv deal, etc. means more money in the pocket of the Leafs.

At the end of the day, contraction means less money for the Leafs.
 

SJeasy

Registered User
Feb 3, 2005
12,538
3
San Jose
Contraction.

Furthermore, the more you tinker with artificial restraints, the more you increase both the complexity and number of unintended consequences. The NHL didn't adopt the idea of a cap+linkage because they knew they'd lose money by going to a 54-57% range. They probably believed at that time that that was a very acceptable range ~because~ they had cost certainty.

The certainty overlooked was that it certainly would cost something, and that 'something' wasn't necessarily a good thing for everyone. (Which actually was predictable as I keep reminding you.)

Of course, you will come back with the national footprint argument and the massive TV contract, and I will remind you that it's set for the next 10+ years and the current batch of owners will have cashed out by then.

I generally agree with your premises, but wish to put forth the other side.

I don't agree on contraction because of the national footprint issue. My issue is with the argument about ROI within a reasonable term and the multitude of motivations for team ownership. There is one argument for unloading teams on a regular basis. The tax benefits of depreciating contracts is time limited, 15 years. I am sure that has something to do with the rapid turnover.

I don't like the term "cost certainty" being applied to the last CBA. Spin from the owners. Certainty is knowing that you will produce X amount of product for Y amount of hours by Z amount of employees at whatever the average wage rate is. The wage rate in the NHL makes it uncertain as it varies with HRR. If anything, the cost of employees is far less than certain outside of each discrete one year window.

For others,
Another bone to pick with those who have harped on owners making out on the capital appreciation of teams. Didn't happen in St. Louis, not in Tampa, not Atlanta, won't happen in Phoenix, etc. The ones that made out like bandits were in major markets. It is erroneous to make a blanket statement about capital appreciation being the gold at the end of the rainbow in the NHL . . . And the landscape of sports ownership is changing. They were sold through the 90s on capital appreciation and that went beyond sports. After the global economic meltdown, investors are looking for a bit more substantial year-to-year results.
 

Chris Hansen

THESE LEGS ARE FRESH
Aug 17, 2007
10,535
0
Can someone give me a detailed summary of the issues that the two sides are currently grappling over as well as an explanation of the meaning of various applicable terms that you may use (what it means, for example, to be linked or de-linked)? Include an explanation regarding the union's recent rumblings of decertification if you can.

Not looking for a "partisan" outlook here, so to speak. I don't care which side is "correct." I think both are selfish trash and I have no reason to defend them.

But for academic purposes, I'm interested in the facts. Can someone help me out? Thanks a ton in advance :)
 

RedWingsNow*

Guest
It was comment from a professor, not the mediator.

I expect the mediator to tell the players that there is no way the owners would ever accept 100% of the risk of low growth, of course. But I think Fehr already knows this. He's the one including those poison pills in his proposals to start with.

What I would propose, then, is an elastic HRR

So I'll go down 57 to 50 over 5 years...

however, if revenues drop, we go back up to 57 percent. If revenues continue to rise, we head down to 50 percent.

That way, players still take the risk. But they don't take the risk GREATER than the risk they already have.


So using fake numbers ...

NHL revenue is $100
I agree to 57-55-54-53-51-50.

Basically... As long as revenue is at $100, I don't take less than $57. If revenue tanks, then I'll hold steady at 57 percent. If that means 57 percent of $90, then i lose.

But if revenue rises, I'll reduce my share-- from 57 percent... but I won't take less than $57.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

tarheelhockey

Offside Review Specialist
Feb 12, 2010
85,437
139,470
Bojangles Parking Lot
Exactly. It's the linkage between total revenue and the cap range that removes basic controls from teams. They wanted to reel in the spending of 5-6 teams and ended up creating a monster that forces weak teams to overspend. Revenue sharing, and very high levels of RS, are the only way to make this work-- but I'm not a fan of massive RS either unless I know the ROI (in total and amount of time for the return).




Thank you. That's it in a nutshell. The fundamental problem is revenue disparity. Until and unless the league makes that their primary focus in designing any economic system, they're just going to continue creating complexity that backfires. To address revenue disparity, they have to have a very clearly defined payback that justifies the wealth redistribution.


TBH, I think that this concept would get a lot of traction if the PA were seriously advocating it. Their first offer, which was based along these lines in principle, was well received by the fans and media. Probably the high point of Fehr's popularity in the last 18 years. As soon as the league resisted, those principles came off the table and their subsequent offers have had nothing related to reforming the system. Which is unfortunate, given that they had an opportunity to call the league out on the floor over these issues and explain their positions over the past several months instead of the... direction... they decided to take instead.
 

rdawg1234

Registered User
Jul 2, 2012
4,586
0
What I would propose, then, is an elastic HRR

So I'll go down 57 to 50 over 5 years...

however, if revenues drop, we go back up to 57 percent. If revenues continue to rise, we head down to 50 percent.

That way, players still take the risk. But they don't take the risk GREATER than the risk they already have.


So using fake numbers ...

NHL revenue is $100
I agree to 57-55-54-53-51-50.

Basically... As long as revenue is at $100, I don't take less than $57. If revenue tanks, then I'll hold steady at 57 percent. If that means 57 percent of $90, then i lose.

But if revenue rises, I'll reduce my share-- from 57 percent... but I won't take less than $57.

That's the PA's original proposal from august.... delinkage....
 

RedWingsNow*

Guest
That's the PA's original proposal from august.... delinkage....

It's not de-linkage.
It's an elastic link

We go down to 50 percent IF revenue rises.

But we don't get worse than 57 percent.

Basically as long as revenue RISES we don't accept PAY CUTS but our share decreases.

We'll accept the PAY CUT if revenues FALLS.

And I don't think the PA had that in their offer.

It's compromise -- It's accepting RISK if revenue falls.
But it's also not taking pay cuts while revenue rises.
 

hockeyfan2k11

Registered User
Jun 11, 2011
12,150
6
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=410437

I'm not exactly hopeful after looking at this, there are several comments from the a sports management professor that makes me think the players will absolutely not want to listen to them, even if what they say is realistic (IMHO)

One reason for the gap is the clause in the proposal that stated the players' share couldn't go down from year to year -- a mechanism meant to protect them in the event revenues fall. NHLPA executive director Donald Fehr said last week that it was a good tradeoff since the players' share would drop from 57 per cent to 50 per cent in the new deal, but Kent doesn't believe the NHL would ever accept those terms.

"I know why the players would offer that, (but) in principle it doesn't seem like it's a deal that anyone in their right mind would accept -- where you get half of everything that grows and you don't take any risk on it not growing," he said.


"Both sides feel they can get a better deal by waiting it out, but my view is that time only helps owners in these negotiations," said Kent. "And it's not just in this particular negotiation, but in any labour dispute. Employees are always at a disadvantage because salary lost is never regained.

"Whereas owners were there before the players and they'll be there after the players and they have plenty of time to make up anything that is lost."



I'm not convinced the players will take comments like that constructively.

So basically, he's saying what we all have been saying. The players are wildly delusional and will come out of this a massive loser. What else is new?
 

The Apologist

Apologizing for Leaf garbage since 1979
Oct 16, 2007
12,251
2,966
Leaf Nation Hell
It's not de-linkage.
It's an elastic link

We go down to 50 percent IF revenue rises.

But we don't get worse than 57 percent.

Basically as long as revenue RISES we don't accept PAY CUTS but our share decreases.

We'll accept the PAY CUT if revenues FALLS.

And I don't think the PA had that in their offer.

It's compromise -- It's accepting RISK if revenue falls.
But it's also not taking pay cuts while revenue rises.

So are the players willing to lose jobs over it? Say 200 or so?
 

NJDevs26

Once upon a time...
Mar 21, 2007
67,555
32,024
For someone who has given up following this as of late- does there seem to be any movement, or optimism as of late?

I feel like the answer is probably no.

It's basically a holding pattern at this point until the mediators have a few days with both sides. The end result of that, and what happens at the BOG meeting next week will be telling.
 

Crease

Chief Justice of the HFNYR Court
Jul 12, 2004
24,209
25,985
Can someone give me a detailed summary of the issues that the two sides are currently grappling over as well as an explanation of the meaning of various applicable terms that you may use (what it means, for example, to be linked or de-linked)? Include an explanation regarding the union's recent rumblings of decertification if you can.

Not looking for a "partisan" outlook here, so to speak. I don't care which side is "correct." I think both are selfish trash and I have no reason to defend them.

But for academic purposes, I'm interested in the facts. Can someone help me out? Thanks a ton in advance :)

**INHALES**

In the last year of the most recently expired CBA, the players were promised 57% of hockey-related revenues (HRR). They are guaranteed this amount through a mechanism called escrow, in which a percent of each players paycheck is withheld and at the end of the season 57% of HRR is tallied up, compared to the actual dollar amount paid to players in aggregate, and the difference is settled.

The owners current wishlist for the next CBA is to bring the players share of 57% of HRR down to 50%, as well as make some changes to player contract rights. For example, cap maximum contract length to 5 years, and bump the age of eligibility for unrestricted free agency (UFA) to 28 from a previous age of 27. The owners are also asking to set a max variance on year-over-year dollars paid during the life of a contract to 5%.

The players latest proposal agreed to 50% of HRR in Year 1 of the new CBA, but with two material differences to the owners wish. In additional to 50% of HRR, the players will received additional amounts in the first four years of a new deal: 182M, 128M, 72M, 11M. This effectively represents the estimated amount of money that players who signed deals prior to the expiration of the prior CBA would stand to lose by going from 57% of HRR to 50% of HRR. In additional to these "Make Whole" payments, the NHLPA asks that starting in Year 2 of the new deal, the amount of money paid to players, in dollar amounts, does not fall below its value for the prior season. This effectively delinks the players share from HRR if revenues do not grow from one year to the next. As far as contract rights are concerned, players do not agree with max contract limit restrictions or changes to UFA eligibility.

What's decertification and why is it coming into play?

During a lockout, time tends to be on the owners side. This is because the owners have other significant sources of income. Players are either not earning a paycheck or are making just enough money overseas to cover the cost to insure their NHL contracts in case of sustaining a career-ending injury while playing overseas.

Decertifying may or may not shift negotiating leverage back to the players. How? A couple of ways. First, the NHL is legally allowed to use labor-restrictive mechanisms such as a salary cap, entry draft, and restrictive free agency because they are collectively agreed upon by the NHLPA. However, when a union decertifies, it effectively kills itself and all those labor-restrictive mechanisms suddenly become illegal. The players could file individual lawsuits against the NHL, and if they NHL doesn't want to deal with the headaches and potential monetary damages, may agree to terms with the players for a more player-friendly CBA. Another option for the players could be to ask a district or provincial court to issue an injunction that would lift the lockout, because technically you cannot lock out a group of individuals (only unions).

*EXHALES*
 

RedWingsNow*

Guest
So are the players willing to lose jobs over it? Say 200 or so?

If you have a point, make it.

I suspect, from your question, that your point will be irrelevant to my point. Which is why I originally replied with an irrelevant question to your irrelevant question
 

Fugu

RIP Barb
Nov 26, 2004
36,952
220
϶(°o°)ϵ
I don't think you make a very strong argument for contraction being the optimal solution for this problem. While I agree it would definitely fix the issues, it'd be quite the Pyrrhic victory. I can see a whole list of downsides to that for everyone involved:

I don't think that once you get to this point, that there is something called an optimal solution. Someone will lose something no matter which way you turn. Once you accept that, you have to devise a strategy that yields the best return for the stake holders. I hope that comes through in the individual replies to the points below.

1. Players losing jobs
I don't believe that job protection is a justifiable reason to ignore market feedback (in and of itself). If a false economy was created that enabled those jobs in the first place, it's all the more reason to reassess the economics at hand.

Yes, I know I'm viewed as pro-union, but the reality is that I'm anti-current NHL thinking.

2. owners of contracted teams losing their investment (and making the league look bad to people who may be inclined to invest in the league in the future)

That has value up to a point. That point is how much real money do you have take from profitable portions and transfer to something that is just being 'propped up' for appearance's sake? One may also have to accept that the value of Vancouver, Detroit or Toronto depends on the value of contracted team X. That may not necessarily be correlated at all.

3. less upward salary pressure (bad for players, not so bad for owners) due to their being more qualified people fighting for fewer spots.

From a fan's perspective, this wouldn't be so bad. If you're on the side that believes talent is stretched too thinly given the current product rates of players by all hockey-producing countries, the product would improve.

For example, Canada could probably develop even more players if they didn't stick to the current age cut-offs and number of programs available. The current cut-off favors kids born in the first half of the year. This has everything to do with when you make the cut-off. If you made the selections six months later, the opposite would happen. That means you're [at a minimum] leaving half of all potential NHL players behind.

4. Less growing of the popularity of the game nationwide (you can't deny that having a team in your city increases the chances of you becoming a hockey fan).

I have mixed feelings on this point. Is the NFL popular because there are 32 teams? Of is football as a sport popular because it's football and Americans play it? Canadians didn't have as many teams back in the day either, and they were usually devout fans in spite of that.

Growing the popularity of the game probably can be helped by the presence of a local team, but then we get into the entire debate of how long that takes, how much money needs to be invested and if that team has to be a winner consistently for it to work. I don't know the answers to these issues. Isn't this the ideology that got us this far?

I don't understand how these consequences are somehow considered less worse than the things you outlined above, which to me sound pretty minor. Obviously it'd be more complicated and more work to design a better system, but it's far from an unsolvable problem.

Don't you have to identify the problem and agree that's the one you're fixing? I think the NHL is targeting something other than revenue disparity.
I realize you seem to think it's inevitable that the big revenue teams will pull the floor up too high for the smaller revenue teams to ever make money, but there's a lot of assumptions inherent in that outlook. The biggest one is the assumption that there is no cap in revenue on the high revenue teams and they will continue to grow at the rate they have been. How do you know that we aren't getting close to the maximum for those markets? Ticket prices can only go up so far. Frankly I think it's just as likely that the majority of future revenue increases will come from the smaller revenue markets, as well as league wide revenue sources that help everyone, because those are the areas with the largest room for growth.

I believe this argument was used during the last lockout-- that there was more room for growth hence the time and resetting of economic conditions to facilitate that were needed.

The first problem is that [outside of a second team in Toronto, possibly Houston, Atlanta (which was just negated) and Seattle], there are no remaining open markets with a high market potential. The proverbial low lying fruit has been picked.

If you accept that premise, the next question is how much time and money needs to be invested in these undeveloped markets to get them to their fully mature state? After you answer that question, you can decide if it's worth the investment. Obviously, a market with 10 million inhabitants is preferable to one with 1,000,000. Your penetration rate for the 1 MM size would have to be 10x as high to get the same value, assuming the demand levels are at comparable price points. It really does come down to eyeballs. The more eyeballs, the more potentially lucrative. You may also factor in that the adoption rates in Canada are higher than the US, on a per capita basis.

Finally, a 5% growth rate for Toronto (assuming HRR is $200 MM for this example) yields $10 MM in additional HRR. For Phoenix (say $60 MM HRR), that would mean ~17% growth to get the same amount.

If that happens, big increases in revenue sharing (as has been agreed to), and a slightly lower percentage of revenue going to the players could make all the difference that is needed to make a league where all the franchises are stable.

That big increase in Revenue Sharing alone may become more money than the NHL ever garnered in expansion fees for those teams, except it's paid out by the top ten teams alone. In theory, your idea can work, but if you actually go through and add up all that money per team (givers and recipients), you can measure whether that is reasonable return for all that money. I'm postulating that it may not be a good ROI at all.

I think contraction is ESPECIALLY silly in a country going through recession, because how do you know that if things were booming again it wouldn't be a perfectly viable market? Why jump ship an abandon all that is good with having the team if you can possibly make a scenario that works by changing other parameters?

Because I've been a fan since the 1970's? Because I don't think the right problem is being addressed, and it was addressed, would the ROI I discuss above be there to justify it (using objective, measurable business parameters)?

Phoenix is the one problem that may be intractable, but I am not entirely convinced of that. They may just need a few more years to grow things. I think that is the biggest problem I have with everyone saying contraction would be so great - it takes time to build a good market in somewhere that isn't naturally a good market, and a lot of things have to go right. It has to be considered a long term project. Even if it is ultimately an unwinnable scenario, moving it makes way more sense than contracting it. There are still a few markets that are likely to be better.

I agree with most of this, but when you see the NHL having to retreat from the biggest city in the south due to possibly its own mismanagement and implementation of expansion plans---you have to wonder. Indeed, it is a long-term project, but if the national footprint is the holy grail, then there are cities that MUST have teams that are nurtured, while others potentially sacrificed to make it possible to do just that. Heck, if they could go back and do it all over again knowing what they know today, they might have longer periods of time between new additions, and a better support plan to make sure the new teams can take root.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad