Post-Game Talk: lo****ingl

[drw02]

Everyone is being reactionary, but no one has real solutions, so most are just being loud and negative.

Here are some statements pretty close to fact:

Fact 1) Howard is our official starter. Pretty much no matter what happens, Howard will likely get some starts or keep his job.
Fact 2) Howard had a **** game, and is the main reason we lost IMO.
Fact 3) Mrazek has talent, but he can not "win" Jimmy's job. All he can do is be present for Howards failure. I.E. Mrazek and Jimmy are both questionable.
Fact 4) Jimmy is signed long term. He is still our starter. For Good or Bad. We have to live with it. Mrazek might get some time, but he will need to pull a Hammond right now to win the playoff starting job. And even then, next year is Jimmy again.

Unhappy with these facts? Well live with it. They are pretty solid facts. Jimmy will have to pull a Kuemper to lose his job here. And thats something like 20-40 games like the one he played today.

These are mostly opinions, not facts

Mrazek is a much bigger threat to take Jimmy's job than you indicate (in my opinion). Mrazek is 22 and already roughly equal talent wise to Howard and he likely still has some more upside/potential to tap into...He possess' the intangibles that Howard has always lacked. Howard is nearing the age where one starts regressing and will probably only get worse/more inconsistent as the years go by.

The NHL is quickly adhering to the NFL mantra 'Not For Long'. More and more it's turning into a young man's game....the older, slower vets are getting pushed aside with increased frequency.

 

[NooDLE]

Ericsson may be having his worst season, so... who knows. Smith started out better and Kindl started out worse. Each time Kindl has sat for a spell and come back he's looked decent to good at first.

I dunno, he's an enigma. Some days he looks like he could even be a middle pairing dude with some PP looks. Other days he looks like a dumpster fire.

Ericsson is playing like it's the 09/10 season. Smith has been about as inconsistent as Kindl. Sucks that half of our dman can't play consistently well.

Kindl actually produces at times, so he's the Kindl of Kindl's.

Oh come on, he's not THAT bad

 

[Claypool]

I've been saying Kindl is better than Smith all season.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

So Ericsson, Smith, Kindl and Quincey are all either mediocre or just plain bad defenseman, in terms of what the Wings ask them to do.

That leaves Kronwall as the only defenseman who i would rate as "good" out of the entire defense.

I don't feel comfortable analyzing Zidlicky since he has been with the team for such a short amount of time. I do think he has been good since arriving, but anyone can look good for a handful of games.

I am OK with Smith getting one more year to see if he can show some real improvement. However, i wouldn't lose any sleep if he didn't get one more year.

Kindl needs to go. Just another bleh player on a team full of bleh players.

Quincey has done nothing to convince me he should be on this team.

You aren't winning a cup when 2/3 of your defensive pairings are a liability on the ice.


My one positive comment: Gator has proven me wrong and deserves to be called a top six player.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

So Ericsson, Smith, Kindl and Quincey are all either mediocre or just plain bad defenseman, in terms of what the Wings ask them to do.

That leaves Kronwall as the only defenseman who i would rate as "good" out of the entire defense.

I don't feel comfortable analyzing Zidlicky since he has been with the team for such a short amount of time. I do think he has been good since arriving, but anyone can look good for a handful of games.

I am OK with Smith getting one more year to see if he can show some real improvement. However, i wouldn't lose any sleep if he didn't get one more year.

Kindl needs to go. Just another bleh player on a team full of bleh players.

Quincey has done nothing to convince me he should be on this team.

You aren't winning a cup when 2/3 of your defensive pairings are a liability on the ice.


My one positive comment: Gator has proven me wrong and deserves to be called a top six player.

The defense doesn't bother me nearly as much as our inability to consistently score goals. We will get bounced from the playoffs as soon as we stop scoring goals.

 

[Eggberto]

The defense doesn't bother me nearly as much as our inability to consistently score goals. We will get bounced from the playoffs as soon as we stop scoring goals.

Our offense has been pretty dry since the west coast trip, but I think that a lot of that has to do with our D's complete ineptitude in dealing with an aggressive forecheck. This D has proven time and time again that it cannot make an outlet pass under preasure; this leads to less chances off the rush and more difficult zone entries since the opposing teams forwards have generally gotten back into position by the time we are able to get out of the zone. Not to mention by the time we get it out of our zone several players usually go change which essentially means we either give the opponents the puck back or we expect our puck carrier to play 1 on 4 for a few.

I think a lot of people would agree with me when I say our offense would improve if we had capable defenseman.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

Our offense has been pretty dry since the west coast trip, but I think that a lot of that has to do with our D's complete ineptitude in dealing with an aggressive forecheck. This D has proven time and time again that it cannot make an outlet pass under preasure; this leads to less chances off the rush and more difficult zone entries since the opposing teams forwards have generally gotten back into position by the time we are able to get out of the zone. Not to mention by the time we get it out of our zone several players usually go change which essentially means we either give the opponents the puck back or we expect our puck carrier to play 1 on 4 for a few.

I think a lot of people would agree with me when I say our offense would improve if we had capable defenseman.

There are plenty around here that would agree with you, that is for sure. I agree that we aren't the best team at moving the puck, but even when we do move it relatively well and play reasonably well in our own zone (which does happen from time to time), we still struggle to score goals. We have also played plenty of teams that don't fore check all that aggressively. Again, we have had issues scoring against these teams as well. I love that we added a good puck mover with Zidlicky. I can't, however, say that our 5-on-5 production has increased all that much on account of him.

I am well aware of the conventional wisdom on the issue, I am just starting to question its accuracy. If you give me enough goals, I can learn to live with the defense.

 

[14ari13]

I don't really worry that they make the playoffs. Not expecting them to be THAT stupid, they'll show up again. But I'm worrying how that team is supposed to survive against teams like the Bolts, Rags or Habs, if they don't get back to their game until then. In the end the odds are "good" that it's just another first round exit. Unless they prove me/us wrong and play up to their potential. Lately, I'm not really optimistic and need to see them going on a tear once again to change that.

There is Babcock though. Many experts and fans would think he is our biggest strength. Maybe he can win us a series or 2.

When was the last time we scored first?

I'll say it again, Howard didn't have a great game, but some of the stuff in here is pretty funny. Poor rebound control? That's one of Mrazek's biggest weaknesses. Positioning? Again, same deal. Mrazek's still getting used to it where he needs to be and has trouble with his aggression. Osgood has called it out a couple of times on broadcast. Not to mention Mrazek has had his share of stinkers, to put it mildly. I say start Mrazek next game but let's not make any premature conclusions here. Neither have been lights out since the deadline.

Well, when Mrazek gave up 5 goals to the high scoring Bolts who Are one of the best and most scoring teams in the league, then Mrazek was bad, but when Howard gives up 5 goals to one of the worst teams in the league who scored 8 goals in last 9 games, then it is bad defence.

This team pisses me off. They're playing like a bunch of spoiled trust fund babies where everything should just be given to them. Besides St Louis, absolutely no passion from this team in this bad stretch. Don't even get me started on the Florida game

I can't really see them missing the playoffs, although, they do play Boston and Ottawa. They drop both of those, it's entirely possible. 6 points up on Boston with a game in hand. So if Boston goes 6-3 in their last nine, Detroit would have to go at least 3-6-1 in their last 10 to secure a spot. Washington and Ottawa could obviously fall out as well

With the way this team is playing, I wouldn't be surprised with an 0-10-0 stretch

We need more fights. Miller did it in the blues game, Ericsson, Abdelkader ... had to do it vs yotes and we would have won.

 

[Frk It]

The defense doesn't bother me nearly as much as our inability to consistently score goals. We will get bounced from the playoffs as soon as we stop scoring goals.

We're 25th in ES Goals For. Better hope we get a bunch of power plays in the playoffs.

 

[Eggberto]

There are plenty around here that would agree with you, that is for sure. I agree that we aren't the best team at moving the puck, but even when we do move it relatively well and play reasonably well in our own zone (which does happen from time to time), we still struggle to score goals. We have also played plenty of teams that don't fore check all that aggressively. Again, we have had issues scoring against these teams as well. I love that we added a good puck mover with Zidlicky. I can't, however, say that our 5-on-5 production has increased all that much on account of him.

I am well aware of the conventional wisdom on the issue, I am just starting to question its accuracy. If you give me enough goals, I can learn to live with the defense.

Our team is definitely not the strongest at 5 on 5. I'd attribute that to having an oaf like erricson in your top 2 who isnt a point producer, isn't a puck mover, isn't physical, and definitely is not a shut down guy.

To an extent up until the past few weeks the wings offense has been resilient enough to recover from defensice gaffes, and our PK was strong enough to not let lazy penalties kill us.

Still, if not a solid puck puck-mover that can help drive play at ES what does this team need? I guess we lack a physical presence on the backend but I am not willing to say someone like Phaneuf is the answer.

 

[Eggberto]

Well, when Mrazek gave up 5 goals to the high scoring Bolts who Are one of the best and most scoring teams in the league, then Mrazek was bad, but when Howard gives up 5 goals to one of the worst teams in the league who scored 8 goals in last 9 games, then it is bad defence.


We need more fights. Miller did it in the blues game, Ericsson, Abdelkader ... had to do it vs yotes and we would have won.

I think a majority of people agree Howard needed to be better last night. Plain and simple he wasn't good enough. For sure. People are saying that it's silly to name Mrazek the starter when he has been just as inconsistent as Howard. The only difference being Mrazek has happened to win a few of his games. The fact is our defense has been bad in front of Howard, and it has been bad in front of Mrazek. Both goalies have had a few stinmers lately. Mrazek has been pulled 3 times now hasn't he?

And fighting. Sometimes our team respinds after a fight. However I honestly feel like the team usually shys away from physical contact once the games start to get really physical. They try and match the physical play for awhile but this is not a team that is going to thrive on fighting and ramped up aggression it just isn't.

 

[ap3x]

There is Babcock though. Many experts and fans would think he is our biggest strength. Maybe he can win us a series or 2.

Give not so much on that alone anymore. If your team is doing just fine AND you've Babs. Hell yes, that's perfect. But if we don't get back to our game and do not start on time, it's worth nothing.
But it's not over yet, still some time left to show up and prove what we're capable of. Just hope for Howard to get better again.

 

[benusmc]

Bring back Merchenko, sit Ericsson for a game. I would possibly even give Kindl another game or two, he can make a break out pass.

 

[Run the Jewels]

We're 25th in ES Goals For. Better hope we get a bunch of power plays in the playoffs.

Total lack of talent. When we have a talent advantage, ie the power play, we are the best!

Oh yeah, this is how the team will perform when Datsyuk retires. No actually it will get worse because we won't have Babcock as coach. I guess Blashill isn't a lock as now it sounds like we will interview MacLean...and maybe McClellan if things don't work out in San Jose.

That sounds promising.

 

[Sadekuuro]

Better hope we get a bunch of power plays in the playoffs.

Good thing that always happens.

 

[TatarTangle]

These are mostly opinions, not facts

Mrazek is a much bigger threat to take Jimmy's job than you indicate (in my opinion). Mrazek is 22 and already roughly equal talent wise to Howard and he likely still has some more upside/potential to tap into...He possess' the intangibles that Howard has always lacked. Howard is nearing the age where one starts regressing and will probably only get worse/more inconsistent as the years go by.

The NHL is quickly adhering to the NFL mantra 'Not For Long'. More and more it's turning into a young man's game....the older, slower vets are getting pushed aside with increased frequency.

These are mostly opinions and not facts. Like all the arm chair goalies here, you're jumping to conclusions. Oh, but wait, you guys have been watching goalies for a long time so you know just as much as people that have played and coach the position. Am I correct?

I've already gave a half-page post about what Mrazek needs to work on before he can be considered a starter. He's not as good as Howard. Period. The only reason why they go with Mrazek is because he gets hot with the chance he's given and that presents the better chance to win a game. It's not because he's a better goalie than Howard, because he isn't. At least not yet. He will be, for that matter.

I'm not opposed to running with Mrazek if he's the hot hand, it gives them a better chance to win. At the end of the day that's all that matters. But, frankly, I'm kind of tired of people pretending they know the ins and outs of goaltending when they don't. The only thing Mrazek is better at is moving the puck, and perhaps giving the Red Wings a better chance at winning a hockey game given the current circumstances.

 

[jerrymac]

Total lack of talent. When we have a talent advantage, ie the power play, we are the best!

Oh yeah, this is how the team will perform when Datsyuk retires. No actually it will get worse because we won't have Babcock as coach. I guess Blashill isn't a lock as now it sounds like we will interview MacLean...and maybe McClellan if things don't work out in San Jose.

That sounds promising.

By that logic shouldn't the 24 teams who score more at ES than us have more talent on their PP? They should be outscoring us even more on the PP.

 

[InjuredChoker]

By that logic shouldn't the 24 teams who score more at ES than us have more talent on their PP? They should be outscoring us even more on the PP.

he wants to spin things that way so babs and his ultimate trap, D first system looks better and holland looks worse.

even with all the injuries last year, we has more shots and scored way better. luck probably has it's role on that but doesn't explain all of it. and this is way better team than last years.

 

[Mister Ed]

The Red Wings are 22nd now, and the only team in the bottom 11 making the playoffs.
Interesting fact.

 

[14ari13]

These are mostly opinions and not facts. Like all the arm chair goalies here, you're jumping to conclusions. Oh, but wait, you guys have been watching goalies for a long time so you know just as much as people that have played and coach the position. Am I correct?

I've already gave a half-page post about what Mrazek needs to work on before he can be considered a starter. He's not as good as Howard. Period. The only reason why they go with Mrazek is because he gets hot with the chance he's given and that presents the better chance to win a game. It's not because he's a better goalie than Howard, because he isn't. At least not yet. He will be, for that matter.

I'm not opposed to running with Mrazek if he's the hot hand, it gives them a better chance to win. At the end of the day that's all that matters. But, frankly, I'm kind of tired of people pretending they know the ins and outs of goaltending when they don't. The only thing Mrazek is better at is moving the puck, and perhaps giving the Red Wings a better chance at winning a hockey game given the current circumstances.

You claim post after post you know a lot about hockey and goaltending, but you have no much to back it up.

There is something called motivation, will and pressure. I have never seen you mentioned any of them.

Here we go.
In 97 we had exactly the same situation. We had Vernon, a veteran goalie who had won the cup, and we had Osgood, a young goalie entering the league and very hungry to prove himself.
During the season Vernon struggled to win games and did not play well. The fans hated him and wanted him gone.
Osgood on the other hand was impressive and was winning a lot.
Then the playoffs arrived, Bowman started Vernon, Wings won the cup, Vernon won the CS.

Mrazek and Howard Are in the same situation. Mrazek is eager, hungry and motivated and therefore he wins more than Howard. Howard, been there, done that. He has nothing to prove.

Well, Howard will get his chance, he will start the playoffs.

But here starts the disagreement.
Some think Howard has been good, very good in the playoffs, I disagree.
Howard will get his chance now, but if he struggles I think Babcock should not hesitate to go with Mrazek.

 

[Hunting Bow*]

These are mostly opinions and not facts. Like all the arm chair goalies here, you're jumping to conclusions. Oh, but wait, you guys have been watching goalies for a long time so you know just as much as people that have played and coach the position. Am I correct?

I've already gave a half-page post about what Mrazek needs to work on before he can be considered a starter. He's not as good as Howard. Period. The only reason why they go with Mrazek is because he gets hot with the chance he's given and that presents the better chance to win a game. It's not because he's a better goalie than Howard, because he isn't. At least not yet. He will be, for that matter.

I'm not opposed to running with Mrazek if he's the hot hand, it gives them a better chance to win. At the end of the day that's all that matters. But, frankly, I'm kind of tired of people pretending they know the ins and outs of goaltending when they don't. The only thing Mrazek is better at is moving the puck, and perhaps giving the Red Wings a better chance at winning a hockey game given the current circumstances.

Why do you feel the need to throw your resume' around all of the time? NOBODY cares when they are formulating THEIR opinions.

Many feel that Mrazek is better or as good as Howard right now. Mrazek is on his way up and Howard is on his way down.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

take out opinions and go to the website that tracks every single goalie stat you cna dream of

your conclusion will be based on math and empirical data not just on how you see things

war on ice

howard is ranked 21st in his ability to stop the difficult shots on ice, the area of the ice the most goals are scored from

that is damning evidence

 

[Frk It]

By that logic shouldn't the 24 teams who score more at ES than us have more talent on their PP? They should be outscoring us even more on the PP.

We actually have lots of skill, which is why we dominate teams when there is extra space on the ice. We can pass very well and play great posession 5 on 4, or 4 on 4.

But we suck when that space is gone and we can't get by on skill alone. We play too much on the perimeter, and struggle to get to the prime areas often enough at even strength.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

We actually have lots of skill, which is why we dominate teams when there is extra space on the ice. We can pass very well and play great posession 5 on 4, or 4 on 4.

But we suck when that space is gone and we can't get by on skill alone. We play too much on the perimeter, and struggle to get to the prime areas often enough at even strength.

this times 1000

we're a soft team that dosent like the rough stuff for the most part

more often then not the second a team plays us hard and wants to grind us down we lose our desire to play and thus lose

 

[detredWINgs]

Total lack of talent. When we have a talent advantage, ie the power play, we are the best!

Oh yeah, this is how the team will perform when Datsyuk retires. No actually it will get worse because we won't have Babcock as coach. I guess Blashill isn't a lock as now it sounds like we will interview MacLean...and maybe McClellan if things don't work out in San Jose.

That sounds promising.

A PP is not a pure "talent" advantage, it's a numbers game. Your point would be valid if the PKing team ran lines as usual and each PP unit didn't spread the wealth but they do. The PKing team puts their best defensive talent out there (to go up against a cadre of top 9 forwards, not too 3) the likes of which make careers out of shutting down offensive skill. Regardless, it's absurd to knock our talent up front.

I think it's telling that we suck offensively 5 on 5 but we're great on the PP now that it is designed around our forwards and not inept defenseman. And as good as Zidlicky looks on our PP, he hasn't, to my knowledge, made it more effective where he has made it more versatile.

It's also pretty telling that we have big and/or antagonizing bodies going to the net and actually producing more so than we ever have in recent years. Helm, Glen, Abby and Cole were all offensive afterthoughts and Sheahan was not here for the entire year. So why, now that we are actually better equipped and balanced up front are we struggling so much to produce 5 on 5?

I think a big part of it has to do with the shot selection from our defenseman. The bulk of the defenseman fail to get shots through and that's where you get a lot of those second and third chances. The below average breakouts that keep us from entering the offensive zone with numbers is also a problem. The teams breakout is dictated much more by our forwards who don't have the puck than our defenseman who do.