Speculation: Line-ups based on the players we HAVE NOW.

[King Forsberg]

Mark Streit will be the other alternate captain this season per the Flyers Instagram. Congrats Mark!

 

[tymed]

This is exactly what I don't buy. You're right, you don't just skate backwards with your stick in the outside lane, but you can still use body position to angle a player wide, then have far greater reach to poke the puck free once the player has committed to beating you wide. In fact, I'd argue that defending a rush on your offside may be easier for slow, immobile defenders because it gives them this increased range to pressure the puck carrier with the stick.

It simply doesn't work that way in practice, and even moreso when you consider the time and space at elite level, unless like I said, your lateral and overall mobility is pronounced. If youre a Lefty on the right side and you've got someone rushing down on you, If you've got your stick outside then you've already given him too much of a lane to the middle. If he fakes you to the inside you're gonna lunge your stick then suddenly your shoulder is across your body and facing the center and without exceptional lateral mobility, that is the millisecond and inch a good skating NHL winger needs to blow by a slowish, mobility challenged Grossmann to the outside, probably every time. If you've got a great lateral step you can offset this but this isn't the case here. On your strong hand side you can do all the angling fluidly without ever requiring to shift your upper body balance or orientation relative to the carrier and thus less likely to be caught crossing over to get to the outside and losing your man..... You cannot let your man cross you to the middle. You direct with your stick and having your stick on the outside directs them to the middle so that's what it should be there in the middle to begin with.

Check this vid, makes it really simply to see in motion as its being explained;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0E8A1YDEuEQ

But none of this is absolute, and that's my point. I don't think that certain skill sets are more suited to play off sides. I'm not saying all players are interchangeable (far from that), but it comes down to comfort level, not necessarily skill set.

Playing on your off side does not preclude you from using your forehand. I'd argue it doesn't necessarily mean a player is using his backhand more than he would be otherwise, either. For example, in transition, an off side defender has his forehand in the middle of the ice, giving him better options for stretch passes.

I mean, how often do you ever see Grossmann make a play in transition that isn't chipping the puck off the wall? For a lefty defender on the left side, this should be no surprise, imo. Perhaps playing the off side will give him better options to make controlled plays on his forehand since he has his forehand in the middle of the ice.

Again, I'm not going to make any absolute claims, but I do think these are experiments worth testing in some cases.

Absolutely it means that he's handling with puck with his backhand more, especially if hes not a dynamic skater, are you reading this somewhere? Moving up the ice he has to accept passes on his back hand. D to D he has to be stopped or moving backwards to take a pass on his forehand. Retrieving the puck in your offhand corner, there is never the option of not turning your back to the play-and then you have to be quick and aware since making a play up your own boards is on the backhand now. A guy like Grossmann would never have the time and awareness to be taking advantage of having a better look at stretch passes from having his stick closer to the middle of the ice near the net in our zone (nor would I want him trying to)... the guy can already only get to it for the split second it takes to hack it up the boards guaranteed. I for one would rather not turn that into a guaranteed backhand hack situation or trying to make a move to the middle and get stripped by any forechecker who can skate. Successfully playing defence on your offhand requires certain skills to be more elevated like all around mobility, puck handling, and awareness of time and space. For really mobile, 2 way dmen you could argue it might be easier because it's a natural fit to certain elevated types of skillsets who are also free to use them. The defensive aspect of defence, however, is easier to play on your forehand in every or just about every way.

 

[Random Forest]

It simply doesn't work that way in practice, and even moreso when you consider the time and space at elite level, unless like I said, your lateral and overall mobility is pronounced. If youre a Lefty on the right side and you've got someone rushing down on you, If you've got your stick outside then you've already given him too much of a lane to the middle. If he fakes you to the inside you're gonna lunge your stick then suddenly your shoulder is across your body and facing the center and without exceptional lateral mobility, that is the millisecond and inch a good skating NHL winger needs to blow by a slowish, mobility challenged Grossmann to the outside, probably every time. If you've got a great lateral step you can offset this but this isn't the case here. On your strong hand side you can do all the angling fluidly without ever requiring to shift your upper body balance or orientation relative to the carrier and thus less likely to be caught crossing over to get to the outside and losing your man..... You cannot let your man cross you to the middle. You direct with your stick and having your stick on the outside directs them to the middle so that's what it should be there in the middle to begin with.

Check this vid, makes it really simply to see in motion as its being explained;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0E8A1YDEuEQ

Again, I'm not suggesting you simply keep your stick to the outside when defending a rush. You can still take away the middle of the ice, but playing the off side makes any play down the wall lower percentage because you have far more range with your stick as a right-handed defender on the left side or vice versa.

With the typical strong-side defender, there is FAR too much emphasis on taking away the middle of the ice (what should be a low percentage play already if you assume good back pressure). We seem to teach players (especially kids at the younger levels) to "force the player wide" all the time. I don't think this is sound advice all the time (emphasis on "all the time"). Allowing a player more room down the wall results in easier establishment of offensive pressure. I'd rather stop the rush altogether than allow a player to drive wide and establish possession down low even if only from the corner. If you have back pressure coming down from the middle to support you, the lower percentage play (for the attacking team) is to cut to the middle.

Again, if a player fakes to the middle only to drive wide, a defender on his off side doesn't need to be particularly fleet of foot to recover because his stick naturally covers more ground on the outside from this side which offsets the disadvantage with regard to mobility. Now consider the converse-- a defender on his natural side defending the same exact play will have to transition with his stick pointing up ice allowing a speedy winger to gain that step AND not have to deal with the defender's stick being in his lane to the net.

Much of what you have just said is terrific fundamentals to teach young kids as a base, but when we're talking about defending a skilled NHL winger on the rush, often times (not always), your best option is to attempt to cut off any play where they can establish controlled offensive possession in the zone (ie, driving wide with control of the puck).

Absolutely it means that he's handling with puck with his backhand more, especially if hes not a dynamic skater, where are you getting this from? Moving up the ice he has to accept passes on his back hand. D to D he has to be stopped or moving backwards to take a pass on his forehand. Retrieving the puck in your offhand corner, there is never the option of not turning your back to the play-and then you have to be quick and aware since making a play up your own boards is on the backhand now. A guy like Grossmann would never have the time and awareness to be taking advantage of having a better look at stretch passes from having his stick closer to the middle of the ice near in our zone (nor would i want him trying to)... the guy can already only get to it for the split second it takes to hack it up the boards guaranteed. I for one would rather not turn that into a guaranteed backhand hack situation or trying to make a move to the middle and get stripped by any forechecker who can skate. Successfully playing defence on your offhand requires certain skills to be more elevated for reasons like all around mobility, puck handling, and awareness of time and space. For really mobile, 2 way dmen you could argue it might be easier because it's a natural fit to certain elevated types of skillsets who are also free to use them. The defensive aspect of defence, however, is easier to play on your forehand in every or just about every way.

It's not as big a detriment as you are suggesting to open up your forehand to receive a pass. Especially in transition. For a player who is going to attempt to receive the pass and skate up the ice quickly, you may have a point since its more difficult to do this in motion, but Grossmann is not this type of player. There are benefits and drawbacks to both. Like I said, a player has more passing options in transition from his offside. These players tend to toss the puck off the wall a lot less because of these options. I'd be pleased if there was a way to have Grossmann stop tossing the puck away off the glass because he has no other options.

Puck retrievals in the corner is your strongest argument. But I still believe there are just as many potential advantages to offset this disadvantage. I'd also argue it's easier for a player like Grossmann to jam the puck out of a D zone scrum on the boards using his backhand since he'll actually have more leverage.

It's just not nearly the disadvantage people would suggest (for NHL players, at least). For peewee players, sure, a lot of this is asking too much, but we're talking about NHLers who can make passes when they have lanes, force attackers to do what they want using his stick, and have teammates who know how to support properly both on the backcheck and in transition. Lots of situations are easier on the off side. And lots of situations are easier from the strong side. Like I said, my point is that there isn't a particular skill set that makes a player more effective playing the off side. That's a very, very rigid view, and I think coaches and fans tend to get bogged down by what has historically been the norm.

Would it work? No clue. I just don't like writing things off because they go against what is considered typical.

 

[Rebels57]

Mark Streit will be the other alternate captain this season per the Flyers Instagram. Congrats Mark!

Not surprised. I think he is setting up to have a great year with us.

 

[Random Forest]

Probably unnecessary, but here are pictures to illustrate my point regarding zone entries.

This is McDonagh defending an entry from his strong side:

And from his "off" side:

Which play probably resulted in a drive to the net or offensive zone possession? It's more difficult to gain the zone with possession in the second scenario than it is in the first. There is MUCH more room for the attacker to drive wide in the first image and it's all because of the amount of room McDonagh's stick can cover.

 

[FLYguy3911]

I'm not going to get into arguments, but the last thing you want to do for someone of Grossmann's skill level is to complicate things even more. Let's keep things simple. Grossmann is a bit of a dying breed, but look around the league at guys that play the off side. Generally they are mobile, skilled guys. Just look at the Flyers- Streit, Coburn, and Gostisbehere are the lefties who play the off side. I would guess MacDonald would be next in line if needed.

 

[Random Forest]

I'm not going to get into arguments, but the last thing you want to do for someone of Grossmann's skill level is to complicate things even more. Let's keep things simple. Grossmann is a bit of a dying breed, but look around the league at guys that play the off side. Generally they are mobile, skilled guys. Just look at the Flyers- Streit, Coburn, and Gostisbehere are the lefties who play the off side. I would guess MacDonald would be next in line if needed.

I'm aware of this, and my point is that just because it is more "typical" for mobile, skilled guys to play the off side, it isn't necessarily detrimental for an immobile or unskilled defender to do the same. On a case by case basis, it may be, but it's not inherently the case because of the player's skill set.

 

[Curufinwe]

Where's the final roster announcement?

 

[FLYguy3911]

I'm aware of this, and my point is that just because it is more "typical" for mobile, skilled guys to play the off side, it isn't necessarily detrimental for an immobile or unskilled defender to do the same. On a case by case basis, it may be, but it's not inherently the case because of the player's skill set.

We've been through this argument before with Simmonds. It has its pros and it has its cons. The pros outweigh the cons. If teams thought it was beneficial they would utilize this strategy. If you followed the Olympic selections closely handedness was a huge factor in the decisions. They didn't want to have guys playing their off side if they didn't have to- and that's the best of the best. Holmgren, of all people, was a big proponent of it.

 

[Random Forest]

We've been through this argument before with Simmonds. It has its pros and it has its cons. The pros outweigh the cons. If teams thought it was beneficial they would utilize this strategy. If you followed the Olympic selections closely handedness was a huge factor in the decisions. They didn't want to have guys playing their off side if they didn't have to- and that's the best of the best. Holmgren, of all people, was a big proponent of it.

Again, I'm aware that most NHL execs subscribe to this mentality. I'm arguing that just because this is the prevailing belief around the NHL does not make it objectively true.

 

[FLYguy3911]

Again, I'm aware that most NHL execs subscribe to this mentality. I'm arguing that just because this is the prevailing belief around the NHL does not make it objectively true.

Agree to disgaree, there are people a lot smarter than you and I making these decisions for a living. If they thought it was more beneficial to the team they would do it- or at least some team would.

 

[Random Forest]

Agree to disgaree, there are people a lot smarter than you and I making these decisions for a living. If they thought it was more beneficial to the team they would do it- or at least some team would.

Eh, I tend to think the NHL as a whole is dangerously afraid of change or new ideas.

 

[FLYguy3911]

Eh, I tend to think the NHL as a whole is dangerously afraid of change or new ideas.

Start preparing your résumé

 

[flyersfan018]

Where's the final roster announcement?

Jason Akeson - C
Pierre-Edouard Bellemare - RW
Sean Couturier - C
Claude Giroux - C
Blair Jones - C
Vincent Lecavalier - C
Zac Rinaldo - LW
Michael Raffl - LW
Matt Read - C
Brayden Schenn - C
Wayne Simmonds - RW
Jakub Voracek - RW
R.J. Umberger - LW

Braydon Coburn - D
Michael Del Zotto - D
Niklas Grossman - D
Andrew MacDonald - D
Luke Schenn - D
Nick Schultz - D
Mark Streit - D

Ray Emery - G
Steve Mason - G

Ryan White - C
Matthew Konan - D
Kimmo Timonen - D

 

[tymed]

Again, I'm not suggesting you simply keep your stick to the outside when defending a rush. You can still take away the middle of the ice, but playing the off side makes any play down the wall lower percentage because you have far more range with your stick as a right-handed defender on the left side or vice versa.

Again, if a player fakes to the middle only to drive wide, a defender on his off side doesn't need to be particularly fleet of foot to recover because his stick naturally covers more ground on the outside from this side which offsets the disadvantage with regard to mobility. Now consider the converse-- a defender on his natural side defending the same exact play will have to transition with his stick pointing up ice allowing a speedy winger to gain that step AND not have to deal with the defender's stick being in his lane to the net.

As I said, if you've made a check with your stick in the forward direction towards the middle (this is a cross body commitment) to guard a fake that he will throw 100% of the time if your sticks not there, and then to have to get your stick back to the outside.... That split second is enough for him to gain a half step on you in the other direction, making your stick good for nothing but taking a penalty-these sticks are like feathers you can't do anything once you've given up that step. Im only speaking from my own years of playing defence as a gifted skater, and from the opinion of everyone I've ever played with-it's just a harder play to make. Even now, I play my off side on defence because no one else is comfortable with the extra difficulty. He does have to be fleet of foot, how can you seriously suggest the opposite?

The thing about strong side rush defending is the idea that angling is so much easier and the "L" shape you make with your stick up the middle is for funneling guys into the boards, not sure where you got the idea that anyone is suggesting that if you take a guy wide, you have to let him get low too. You have your body there to stop him from getting deep, and your stick to prevent him breaking to the middle. Your stick isn't stopping anybody or anything once that puck is closer to your own net than you are at that speed. You relinquish a degree of the control in so many instances of play.

With the typical strong-side defender, there is FAR too much emphasis on taking away the middle of the ice (what should be a low percentage play already if you assume good back pressure). We seem to teach players (especially kids at the younger levels) to "force the player wide" all the time. I don't think this is sound advice all the time (emphasis on "all the time"). Allowing a player more room down the wall results in easier establishment of offensive pressure. I'd rather stop the rush altogether than allow a player to drive wide and establish possession down low even if only from the corner. If you have back pressure coming down from the middle to support you, the lower percentage play (for the attacking team) is to cut to the middle.
Much of what you have just said is terrific fundamentals to teach young kids as a base, but when we're talking about defending a skilled NHL winger on the rush, often times (not always), your best option is to attempt to cut off any play where they can establish controlled offensive possession in the zone (ie, driving wide with control of the puck).

Obviously you want to stop the play as quickly as you can. Why are you saying that playing a guy to the outside is slower? It's certainly safer (again, you play him into the boards, not allow him your corner). We teach fundamentals because they are exactly that. It is fundamentally simpler mentally and physically to play defence on your strong side- and angling with your stick naturally in the middle is one of the reasons.

The only time you want to allow passage to the middle is if you're outnumbering them and want to force them through more defence and not allow even the slightest change of them gaining space wide.

It's not as big a detriment as you are suggesting to open up your forehand to receive a pass. Especially in transition. For a player who is going to attempt to receive the pass and skate up the ice quickly, you may have a point since its more difficult to do this in motion, but Grossmann is not this type of player. There are benefits and drawbacks to both. Like I said, a player has more passing options in transition from his offside. These players tend to toss the puck off the wall a lot less because of these options. I'd be pleased if there was a way to have Grossmann stop tossing the puck away off the glass because he has no other options.

Puck retrievals in the corner is your strongest argument. But I still believe there are just as many potential advantages to offset this disadvantage. I'd also argue it's easier for a player like Grossmann to jam the puck out of a D zone scrum on the boards using his backhand since he'll actually have more leverage.

It's just not nearly the disadvantage people would suggest (for NHL players, at least). For peewee players, sure, a lot of this is asking too much, but we're talking about NHLers who can make passes when they have lanes, force attackers to do what they want using his stick, and have teammates who know how to support properly both on the backcheck and in transition. Lots of situations are easier on the off side. And lots of situations are easier from the strong side. Like I said, my point is that there isn't a particular skill set that makes a player more effective playing the off side. That's a very, very rigid view, and I think coaches and fans tend to get bogged down by what has historically been the norm.

Would it work? No clue. I just don't like writing things off because they go against what is considered typical.

All my arguments are strong, yours are the ones that do simply not hold up anywhere. I see where you're going because when you read it in simple text, it could make sense but as soon as you ply it up to practice and experience, none of what you're saying makes nearly as much sense as you'd like it to.... you're stating things that arent't true at all and you're very clearly basing a lot of your argument on pure speculation. You're forgetting how little time and space there is in the instant that a play happens. And you're talking like all NHL defencemen are impenetrable superstars here which is weird when we're talking about Grossmann in particular.

Again, it does in fact require elevated skills to successfully play your offside on defence and it's mostly for offensive purpose because the acts of defending certainly are more challenging. You feel the opposite, in that a slower less mobile skater can benefit from playing on his unnatural side-we're gonna have to agree to disagree here.

 

[PALE PWNR]

Its easier to play defense on your off side because you can force the opposition to the outside way easier. Its epically harder to break out of the zone on your off side then it is on your stick side. You have to go across your body to pass to the near boards which takes longer and is easier to read. Meaning the person playing on their off side has to have the skills and intelligence to make smart passes in the middle of the ice which are more difficult to do and more dangerous obviously... This is why you primarily see puck movers or fast defenders on the off side when playing d.

 

[King Forsberg]

Jason Akeson - C
Pierre-Edouard Bellemare - RW
Sean Couturier - C
Claude Giroux - C
Blair Jones - C
Vincent Lecavalier - C
Zac Rinaldo - LW
Michael Raffl - LW
Matt Read - C
Brayden Schenn - C
Wayne Simmonds - RW
Jakub Voracek - RW
R.J. Umberger - LW

Braydon Coburn - D
Michael Del Zotto - D
Niklas Grossman - D
Andrew MacDonald - D
Luke Schenn - D
Nick Schultz - D
Mark Streit - D

Ray Emery - G
Steve Mason - G

Ryan White - C
Matthew Konan - D
Kimmo Timonen - D

Your 2015 Stanley Cup Champions...

 

[Appleyard]

Your 2015 Stanley Cup Champions...

If you blank out all the D apart from the top and bottom ones on the list and imagine some better ones in the others places it looks like they could have a shot!

 

[Striiker]

wrong thread.

 

[Riptide]

Hey guys. Question for you. How has Vinny looked so far this pre-season? And what are some realistic expectations for him?

60 pts last year was likely a reach... but I think everyone thought he'd do better than the 37 pts he had.

 

[MiamiScreamingEagles]

Hey guys. Question for you. How has Vinny looked so far this pre-season? And what are some realistic expectations for him?

60 pts last year was likely a reach... but I think everyone thought he'd do better than the 37 pts he had.

Showed speed and looked good. Came to camp dedicated. An article was written yesterday and his status and quotes from the Coach include:

http://www.courierpostonline.com/st...y-lecavalier-flyers-power-play-ploy/16879719/

“Very good camp,” Berube said. “Worked extremely hard. I think he’s bought in like he talked about and worked really hard. It’s a lot of habits he’s trying to change, too. It doesn’t happen overnight.”

 

[Cootsfanclub]

Hey guys. Question for you. How has Vinny looked so far this pre-season? And what are some realistic expectations for him?

60 pts last year was likely a reach... but I think everyone thought he'd do better than the 37 pts he had.

If he stays healthy I think he can have a rebound year, I don't know if that will actually happen. I think he'll hit 50 points.

 

[FlyTimmo]

Hey guys. Question for you. How has Vinny looked so far this pre-season? And what are some realistic expectations for him?

60 pts last year was likely a reach... but I think everyone thought he'd do better than the 37 pts he had.

Depends how he fits on the PP. He is very capable of besting his 37 point season last year.

 

[Riptide]

Thanks.

 

[kelmitchell]

Well we are going back to the old line ups, Raffl g and Jake then schenn Vinny simmonds .....