Lidström/Karlsson vs Bourque/Housley vs Pronger/Coffey vs Potvin/Klingberg vs Orr/Hughes

[Hierso]

It might be. Orr was fantastic

Also - Hughes should be pretty damn good.

At some point you get a diminishing return i think. Orr is the best d-man but the difference between him and Lidstrom isn't EK in his prime i think.

 

[DickSmehlik]

Give me the tandem where one guy won't let the opposing team get a sniff in the offensive zone and one guy is a threat to score 50 goals.

I think prime Pronger is the ultimate shutdown dman and prime Coffey is a notch below Orr as the best offensive player in the lot.

 

[joe dirte]

Basically

Karlsson >= Coffey
Housley
Klingberg
Hughes

Orr
Potvin
Bourque
Lidström
Pronger

So? What's the problem?

Whoa! Karlsson is nowhere near as good as paul coffey.

 

[joe dirte]

Thisvis pronger and coffey by a wide wide wide margin. Having hughes there disqualifies Orr. Lidstrom is a vit better than pronger but having a top 2 or 3 offensive dman in history in coffey beside him is too much to pass up

 

[AB13]

That is very much up for debate...but at least Hughes still has the potential to develop into a #1 defenseman, something we know John Please-don't-make-me-battle-in-the-corner-or-PK Klingberg will never be.

Klingberg has been a #1 defenseman for years and was probably the best defenseman in the world during 2017-18, stop being ridiculous. There are better options for this poll but you don't have to massively overexaggerate to make your point.

Klingberg is currently a top 5 offensive defenceman in the league with solid defensive play and elite puck moving + IQ. He is miles ahead of all other Stars defencemen and easily their number 1. He also had a down year but he is a norris caliber player on form.

 

[joe dirte]

Klingberg has been a #1 defenseman for years and was probably the best defenseman in the world during 2017-18, stop being ridiculous. There are better options for this poll but you don't have to massively overexaggerate to make your point.

Klingberg is currently a top 5 offensive defenceman in the league with solid defensive play and elite puck moving + IQ. He is miles ahead of all other Stars defencemen and easily their number 1. He also had a down year but he is a norris caliber player on form.

Yikes. Youre exaggerating just as much as he is. Klingberg is a solid dman but he has never been the best in the world.

 

[AB13]

Yikes. Youre exaggerating just as much as he is. Klingberg is a solid dman but he has never been the best in the world.

On overall ability he has never been the best in the world, no. But during the 2017-18 season when he caught fire he was the best for a few months ( maybe Hedman was better but not by much during that season).

 

[joe dirte]

On overall ability he has never been the best in the world, no. But during the 2017-18 season when he caught fire he was the best for a few months ( maybe Hedman was better but not by much during that season).

I mean, if thats what youre going by, there are a lot of dmen that have been "dman of the month" over the last 60 years, which is what the time period covers of these dmen.

 

[AB13]

I mean, if thats what youre going by, there are a lot of dmen that have been "dman of the month" over the last 60 years, which is what the time period covers of these dmen.

Klingberg deserved the Norris that season. Can’t say that for lots of people.

 

[McDavidCrushedLarkin]

Pronger and Coffey without a doubt.

 

[joe dirte]

Klingberg deserved the Norris that season. Can’t say that for lots of people.

You might think that. Cant say that for lots of people.

 

[MrOT]

Whoa! Karlsson is nowhere near as good as paul coffey.

This is very much a matter of What have you done for me lately? Before Karlsson's surgery in 2017 I remember most people having him ahead of Coffey. But that off course was under the assumption that he wouldn't be a shell of his former self after that injury and that he would have a lot longer peak.

It's interesting to compare the two. They are fairly similar in terms of Norrises and 1st team all stars (even though many people claim Karlsson got robbed twice). However Karlsson accomplished this in much shorter time, fighting two career threatening injuries and on a bottom feeder squad in Ottawa, where he was the leader and best player, while Coffey played on dynasties where he was more a kind of backup star behind the likes of Gretzky, Lemieux, Yzerman etc. Coffey also never had the historic offensive season Karlsson had in 15/16 when he led the league in assists, 4th in points while being the top scorer on his team. He also never had the playoff run Karlsson had in 16/17 when he led a bottom feeder squad to one goal short of the Stanley cup finals. Karlsson was also by many experts considered a top 3 player in the league that year (no 1 by some) alongside Crosby and McDavid. Coffey was never considered among the leagues very best players. I've also heard that Karlsson was talked about by fans and coaches as "best in the league" in that very short stretch before his achilles injury in 2013. Karlsson was also ranked at #3 on the TSN top 50 list after the 16/17 season.

So Karlsson definitely peaked higher. The question is how much you punish him for having his prime cut short by two career threatening injuries.

 

[joe dirte]

This is very much a matter of What have you done for me lately? Before Karlsson's surgery in 2017 I remember most people having him ahead of Coffey. But that off course was under the assumption that he wouldn't be a shell of his former self after that injury and that he would have a lot longer peak.

It's interesting to compare the two. They are fairly similar in terms of Norrises and 1st team all stars (even though many people claim Karlsson got robbed twice). However Karlsson accomplished this in much shorter time, fighting two career threatening injuries and on a bottom feeder squad in Ottawa, where he was the leader and best player, while Coffey played on dynasties where he was more a kind of backup star behind the likes of Gretzky, Lemieux, Yzerman etc. Coffey also never had the historic offensive season Karlsson had in 15/16 when he led the league in assists, 4th in points while being the top scorer on his team. He also never had the playoff run Karlsson had in 16/17 when he led a bottom feeder squad to one goal short of the Stanley cup finals. Karlsson was also by many experts considered a top 3 player in the league that year (no 1 by some) alongside Crosby and McDavid. Coffey was never considered among the leagues very best players. I've also heard that Karlsson was talked about by fans and coaches as "best in the league" in that very short stretch before his achilles injury in 2013. Karlsson was also ranked at #3 on the TSN top 50 list after the 16/17 season.

So Karlsson definitely peaked higher. The question is how much you punish him for having his prime cut short by two career threatening injuries.

Karlsson never played at the same time as gretzky and lemieux.

48 goals. A second 40 goal season. Led the league in points by a dman by over 50 points. And hes bot near the mess defensively that karlsson is and always has been. Its coffey by a wide wide wide margin.

We kept hearing how Karlsson would score sooo many points on a better team and the only thing that happened when he was traded to one was the karlsson fanbois stepped up their excuses game.

 

[MrOT]

Karlsson never played at the same time as gretzky and lemieux.

48 goals. A second 40 goal season. Led the league in points by a dman by over 50 points. And hes bot near the mess defensively that karlsson is and always has been. Its coffey by a wide wide wide margin.

We kept hearing how Karlsson would score sooo many points on a better team and the only thing that happened when he was traded to one was the karlsson fanbois stepped up their excuses game.

You probably know as well as anyone that Karlsson is not the same player after the 2017 surgery.

 

[joe dirte]

You probably know as well as anyone that Karlsson is not the same player after the 2017 surgery.

He wasnt paul coffey before it.

 

[MrOT]

He wasnt paul coffey before it.

He was better than Paul Coffey IMO, especially before his achilles injury in 2013 his potential was through the roof, unfortunately his ability got worse in two steps, the 2013 and 2017 injuries made him what he is today, a shell of his former self.

Pre achilles Karlsson:



The thing is as you can see, he was amazing defensively as well. And he was only 22 years old at the time, not even in his prime. One of the saddest what if storys in hockey is the What if Matt Cooke didn't slice Erik Karlsson

 

[joe dirte]

He was better than Paul Coffey IMO, especially before his achilles injury in 2013 his potential was through the roof, unfortunately his ability got worse in two steps, the 2013 and 2017 injuries made him what he is today, a shell of his former self.

The thing is as you can see, he was amazing defensively as well. And he was only 22 years old at the time, not even in his prime. One of the saddest what if storys in hockey is the What if Matt Cooke didn't slice Erik Karlsson

He has never been good defensively. Good lord. I could show you a few highlight clibs that would make you think marek malik has great silky hands. Highlight clips dont prove anything.

Statements like this show how little some understand hockey. When it comes to defense if there are 2 players, and one makes 7 flashy steals, and makes 3 mistakes, and the second makes 2 flashy steals, but 1 mistake, yoo take the second player every time.

You need to find a new sport to follow.

 

[stl76]

Klingberg has been a #1 defenseman for years and was probably the best defenseman in the world during 2017-18, stop being ridiculous. There are better options for this poll but you don't have to massively overexaggerate to make your point.

Klingberg is currently a top 5 offensive defenceman in the league with solid defensive play and elite puck moving + IQ. He is miles ahead of all other Stars defencemen and easily their number 1. He also had a down year but he is a norris caliber player on form.

2017-18 when he finished SIXTH in Norris voting? 2017-18 when Klingberg averaged the SEVENTH most shTOI among stars dmen and started in the offensive 55% if the time? Get out of here. He started hot that year, put up a lot of points early, then fell back to earth. He is what he is: a gifted offensive dman who is given prime offensive opportunities but is suspect defensively. He doesn't do the defensive heavy lifting on his own team.

Ask stars fans who their most important dman is and I bet you a nickle that the combined totals for Heiskanen and Lindell are greater than Klingberg. You'd think a "Norris caliber player" would have finished top 5 in Norris voting at least once...

 

[Rowlet]

Take Orr because Hughes will be serviceable enough.

 

[MrOT]

He has never been good defensively. Good lord. I could show you a few highlight clibs that would make you think marek malik has great silky hands. Highlight clips dont prove anything.

Statements like this show how little some understand hockey. When it comes to defense if there are 2 players, and one makes 7 flashy steals, and makes 3 mistakes, and the second makes 2 flashy steals, but 1 mistake, yoo take the second player every time.

You need to find a new sport to follow.

This wasn't highlight clips, it was basically every posession and defensive play from an entire game. Everyone know he was great defensively that year pre Cooke. Everyone also know he was very good defensively in 16/17. You're the outlier here not me

 

[Rabid Ranger]

With Orr and Hughes no other player on the ice would get the puck. That said, I think Pronger/Coffey is the best pairing listed.

 

[joe dirte]

This wasn't highlight clips, it was basically every posession and defensive play from an entire game. Everyone know he was great defensively that year pre Cooke. Everyone also know he was very good defensively in 16/17. You're the outlier here not me

I could show you games he messes up and leads to 3, 4, maybe 5 goals against..... not what you wsnt in a dman

 

[MrOT]

I could show you games he messes up and leads to 3, 4, maybe 5 goals against..... not what you wsnt in a dman

Not from the seasons I pointed out I'm pretty sure you can't.

 

[TS Quint]

The difference between Lidström and Orr isn't Karlsson.

The add in talent is on Orr’s side. Lidstrom is the greatest ever to play defense in the NHL.

 

[North Cole]

This is very much a matter of What have you done for me lately? Before Karlsson's surgery in 2017 I remember most people having him ahead of Coffey. But that off course was under the assumption that he wouldn't be a shell of his former self after that injury and that he would have a lot longer peak.

It's interesting to compare the two. They are fairly similar in terms of Norrises and 1st team all stars (even though many people claim Karlsson got robbed twice). However Karlsson accomplished this in much shorter time, fighting two career threatening injuries and on a bottom feeder squad in Ottawa, where he was the leader and best player, while Coffey played on dynasties where he was more a kind of backup star behind the likes of Gretzky, Lemieux, Yzerman etc. Coffey also never had the historic offensive season Karlsson had in 15/16 when he led the league in assists, 4th in points while being the top scorer on his team. He also never had the playoff run Karlsson had in 16/17 when he led a bottom feeder squad to one goal short of the Stanley cup finals. Karlsson was also by many experts considered a top 3 player in the league that year (no 1 by some) alongside Crosby and McDavid. Coffey was never considered among the leagues very best players. I've also heard that Karlsson was talked about by fans and coaches as "best in the league" in that very short stretch before his achilles injury in 2013. Karlsson was also ranked at #3 on the TSN top 50 list after the 16/17 season.

So Karlsson definitely peaked higher. The question is how much you punish him for having his prime cut short by two career threatening injuries.

You seem to be implying Karlsson wouldnt be a backup star to Gretzky and Lemieux. All of these positives would be erased if Karlsson was playing in the 80s and 90s. He also wouldn't be considered a top 3 player, and also wouldnt lead the league in assists. Karlsson didnt have the competition at Norris that Coffey did.

Coffey had plenty of historic seasons, if your criteria isnt - be better than the greatest of all time. I think you're sleeping pretty hard on Coffey