Salary Cap: Lets put Salary structure expenditures to the test.

i1

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What's most concerning to me is Dubas has gutted basically all non 'core' salary and is still against the ceiling. The Leafs have their big 4, a handful of essential guys who are signed to value/slightly below value (Brodie, Rielly, Andersen, Muzzin), then the bargain squad.

In terms of dumping salary without moving stars he only has Kerfoot left. After that there is basically no wiggle room aside from trading core players and/or crossing fingers on $1 million guys every year.
 
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Mess

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What's most concerning to me is Dubas has gutted basically all non 'core' salary and is still against the ceiling. The Leafs have their big 4, a handful of essential guys who are signed to value/slightly below value (Brodie, Rielly, Andersen, Muzzin), then the bargain squad.

In terms of dumping salary without moving stars he only has Kerfoot left. After that there is basically no wiggle room aside from trading core players and/or crossing fingers on $1 million guys every year.

The Leafs are set up as the Have and Have Nots based on their salary cap and will need to be carried by their top 4 forwards on nightly basis.

This will be tested in strategy this year in terms of viability, and whether you can get enough secondary scoring, support and contribution from the bottom end of the roster, on nights where your top 4 F are held in check or played at par by the opposition.

What will be the key here however is the ability to overcome injuries which are inevitable, because the depth replacements beyond the current roster will be even below the league minimum players in skill level.
 

Dekes For Days

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What will be the key here however is the ability to overcome injuries which are inevitable, because the depth replacements beyond the current roster will be even below the league minimum players in skill level.
This is the best depth the Leafs have had at literally all positions.
 
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ToneDog

56 years and counting. #FireTheShanaClan!
Jun 11, 2017
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The Leafs are set up as the Have and Have Nots based on their salary cap and will need to be carried by their top 4 forwards on nightly basis.

This will be tested in strategy this year in terms of viability, and whether you can get enough secondary scoring, support and contribution from the bottom end of the roster, on nights where your top 4 F are held in check or played at par by the opposition.

What will be the key here however is the ability to overcome injuries which are inevitable, because the depth replacements beyond the current roster will be even below the league minimum players in skill level.

On paper the Have Nots look good but lose one or two of the big 4 for an extended amount of time and our depth will be challenged big time. If there is a silver lining, losing one or two of the big 4 for an extended amount of time will open a ton of cap space. Remember there is no cap in the playoffs.
 
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ToneDog

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What's most concerning to me is Dubas has gutted basically all non 'core' salary and is still against the ceiling. The Leafs have their big 4, a handful of essential guys who are signed to value/slightly below value (Brodie, Rielly, Andersen, Muzzin), then the bargain squad.

In terms of dumping salary without moving stars he only has Kerfoot left. After that there is basically no wiggle room aside from trading core players and/or crossing fingers on $1 million guys every year.

That is the landscape until one of the big 4 is moved. The good thing for the Leafs is that the pandemic allowed teams to sign most players for less than their pre-pandemic market value.
 

LeafsOHLRangers98

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Jun 13, 2017
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What's most concerning to me is Dubas has gutted basically all non 'core' salary and is still against the ceiling. The Leafs have their big 4, a handful of essential guys who are signed to value/slightly below value (Brodie, Rielly, Andersen, Muzzin), then the bargain squad.

In terms of dumping salary without moving stars he only has Kerfoot left. After that there is basically no wiggle room aside from trading core players and/or crossing fingers on $1 million guys every year.
Does any team have a full lineup of stars that they keep around without trading bottom of the roster talent once they earn bigger salaries?

It's the nature of the salary cap and every team has to deal with it. People really need to get over what the big 4 make. If all play as they did under Keefe we potentially have 4 80-100 point players with 3 of them still being under 25 years old.

You mentioned the handful of essential guys which included 3/4 of a really good top 4 d-core and a starting goaltender, with the rest of the roster having a lot of depth, and a lot of boom/bust prospect potential in the system.

Our holes are LW and 2RD now and we have enough depth to give other guys an opportunity in those spots if people aren't producing and we're cap compliant.

I would much rather be in our position than say the Islanders with Pulock's arbitration date coming up, Barzal unsigned, and just $8.9M in cap space.
 
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Mess

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On paper the Have Nots look good but lose one or two of the big 4 for an extended amount of time and our depth will be challenged big time. If there is a silver lining, losing one or two of the big 4 for an extended amount of time will open a ton of cap space. Remember there is no cap in the playoffs.

In the past even as recent as last season when a top 6 current forward went down you could toss a AJ or Kapanen in there beside AM or JT, replacing Hyman and Mikheyev short-term and now the Leafs really only have Kerfoot to toss into that top 6 role and he is already suppose to be Leafs 3rd line C replacement for Kadri who was a cap casualty from the previous year to test this cap heavy theory.

If AM or JT miss time are we expecting 41 year old Thornton or 38 year old Spezza to step in and play 20+ minutes a night and then bottom fill his roster spot with and Engval?
or
Are we going to see a Mikheyev -- Kerfoot -- Nylander 2nd line or Hyman -- Kerfoot -- Marner top line?
or say its Marner or Nylander out
&
Are we going to see Hyman -- Matthews -- Kerfoot or Mikheyev -- Tavares -- Kerfoot/Simmonds/Vesey?

Even if Leafs lose players from the their bottom 6 currently say Thornton and Simmonds then are Travis Boyd, Joey Andersen or Denis Malgin going to be asked to replace them, which might still be the case even if Thornton and Simmonds are moved up into the top 6 as injury replacements and their former spots bottom filled?

If say TJ Brodie got hurt who was our biggest summer acquisition and missed a month, we're left with Justin Holl as our only RHD and playing in the top 4 on D, and hoping a yet untested Lehtonen is top 4 capable to fill that other spot. What does a Leafs defense look like if its Reilly/Muzzin or Brodie that miss time?

Injuries are a part of life and inevitable that all teams must face and deal with but with a very top heavy cap strategy, the impact on your roster overall takes on very different look during the year than what starts on paper to begin with. Even if you just picture 3 or 4 secondary non top 4 forwards it looks a lot different because of how much cap they consume and you're left with a bunch of <$1 mil players replacements for current <$ 1 mil regulars and starters.

At 100% healthy the current roster looks like it can test this successful compete theory on a nightly basis while being cap compliant to start with, at least in the regular season to qualify for the playoffs this year, but the Leafs salary structure strategy will really TRULY be tested once injuries become a part of the equation and where we end up at. IMO
 
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ToneDog

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In the past even as recent as last season when a top 6 current forward went down you could toss a AJ or Kapanen in there beside AM or JT, replacing Hyman and Mikheyev short-term and now the Leafs really only have Kerfoot to toss into that top 6 role and he is already suppose to be Leafs 3rd line C replacement for Kadri who was a cap casualty from the previous year to test this cap heavy theory.

If AM or JT miss time are we expecting 41 year old Thornton or 38 year old Spezza to step in and play 20+ minutes a night and then bottom fill his roster spot with and Engval?
or
Are we going to see a Mikheyev -- Kerfoot -- Nylander 2nd line or Hyman -- Kerfoot -- Marner top line?
or say its Marner or Nylander out
&
Are we going to see Hyman -- Matthews -- Kerfoot or Mikheyev -- Tavares -- Kerfoot/Simmonds/Vesey?

Even if Leafs lose players from the their bottom 6 currently say Thornton and Simmonds then are Travis Boyd, Joey Andersen or Denis Malgin going to be asked to replace them, which might still be the case even if Thornton and Simmonds are moved up into the top 6 as injury replacements and their former spots bottom filled?

If say TJ Brodie got hurt who was our biggest summer acquisition and missed a month, we're left with Justin Holl as our only RHD and playing in the top 4 on D, and hoping a yet untested Lehtonen is top 4 capable to fill that other spot. What does a Leafs defense look like if its Reilly/Muzzin or Brodie that miss time?

Injuries are a part of life and inevitable that all teams must face and deal with but with a very top heavy cap strategy, the impact on your roster overall takes on very different look during the year than what starts on paper to begin with. Even if you just picture 3 or 4 secondary non top 4 forwards it looks a lot different because of how much cap they consume and you're left with a bunch of <$1 mil players replacements for current <$ 1 mil regulars and starters.

At 100% healthy the current roster looks like it can test this successful compete theory on a nightly basis while being cap compliant to start with, at least in the regular season to qualify for the playoffs this year, but the Leafs salary structure strategy will really TRULY be tested once injuries become a part of the equation and where we end up at. IMO

"rainy day" scenario means replacing $11m/$7m/$5m players with $1m players. It won't work for long and could cost Dubas his job. Pray for "sunny" days ahead.
 

nuck

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Aug 18, 2005
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I think the question is can they compete for a Cup with this particular group of high salaries? We know this basic lineup hasn't won a playoff round and that the bottom 6 will now be populated by players who didn't score 10 goals last year. In the playoffs they were able to plug the regular season leaks on defense but that was against a bottom 3 offense and it may have shut down their own scoring. So they can fail to compete for a Cup with this lineup or swap $5M forward money out for a better than Brodie top 4 D which I like more.

I don't know for sure whether KD was betting more on the structure or on the individuals but his plan requires those individuals to produce in the post season like some of their salary comps have managed to do. The big 4 just have to be better, plain and simple. Kucherov and Point played like Kucherov and Point, they weren't carried by better players. If Marner and Matthews look like $11M players in the post season the club can win some games and the absence of high value contracts won't be such a big topic. If they gas again and Dubas gets canned it won't really prove his team dangle offense doesn't work, just that the particular danglers selected weren't up to that task. In any kind of salary configuration the key players still have play at least close to what they are paid for playing.

If comparing Willie to Pasta is unfair for some reason how about he just produces like Forsberg in 2016 or 2017.? And he's the club's 4th best guy!
 
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Mess

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"rainy day" scenario means replacing $11m/$7m/$5m players with $1m players. It won't work for long and could cost Dubas his job. Pray for "sunny" days ahead.

Yup, that is when cap spending and cap management not for simple compliancy get tested and not in good times but the bad times and its not the before but the after that really matters.

Just picture a Leafs line-up even taking 3-4 random players out and re-evaluate to test "depth". ie Hyman, Muzzin, Simmonds and Dermott OUT and Boyd, Sandin, Malgin and Marincin IN

It goes beyond just that in that if Nylander @ $7 mil in cap hit was dressing AJ and Kapanen in equivalency and 2 players for the price of 1 as in 2 X +$3.5 mil players, then if you lose one of those to injury you still have the other one and when you bottom fill the roster the gap between replacing a $3 mil player with a $1 mil is less than losing Nylander @ $7 mil and recalling Travis Boyd at $700k.

Look at that from a production stand point where AJ + Kapanen scoring 20 goals 25 assists each for $7 mil cap combined would require Nylander to score 40 goals 50 assists 90 points of balance cap spending for not only reducing the risk of injury, but also playing the production output potential game for the same cap amount of spending.

Now it gets worse if its those core 3 $ 11 mil players that get hurt and miss time, because their replacement would be AHLers making $1 mil or less as recalls.. For Cap purposes however its $11 mil OUT and $1 mil IN which in essences is like playing $ 10 mil below the salary cap ceiling, because you're dressing a $71.5 mil roster and not $81.5 mil roster. It the difference in cap hit cost from the starter to the replacement player that comes into play of a team assembled around fitting that $11 mil player for cap compliancy.

Where the later causes the more dramatic impact on competitiveness for the team, then even the balanced spending concept in the Nylander example.

The utopia of a day 1 opening roster is not when this theory will or should be tested for success and competitiveness, but during to see where the final standings end up at.
 
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Dekes For Days

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Just picture a Leafs line-up even taking 3-4 random players out and re-evaluate to test "depth". ie Hyman, Muzzin, Simmonds and Dermott OUT and Boyd, Sandin, Malgin and Marincin IN
Most likely to replace that would likely be Engvall, Andersen, Sandin, and Liljegren, not the players you mentioned, which is much better depth than prior years. Those players would also be filling in the smaller roles as more established players move up to fill in the injured player's spot.
 

Duckrider

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Next year as it stands Boston is nowhere near as good as they were last year. Tampa looks like they are not the same team either, and in a way what separated them and the leafs is much smaller. I think with the core being a year older and perhaps "getting it" in combination to Much better depth on defense! Marincin is so far down the depth now we shouldn't see him play other than a game! Sure the big 4 do take up a lot of cap, but other teams have overpaid bad or have players that cant play anywhere close to their cap. I'd rather pay my good players than mediocre. No team is structured perfectly. If they were teams wouldn't always have to find a cheaper option.
 

Golden_Jet

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Next year as it stands Boston is nowhere near as good as they were last year. Tampa looks like they are not the same team either, and in a way what separated them and the leafs is much smaller. I think with the core being a year older and perhaps "getting it" in combination to Much better depth on defense! Marincin is so far down the depth now we shouldn't see him play other than a game! Sure the big 4 do take up a lot of cap, but other teams have overpaid bad or have players that cant play anywhere close to their cap. I'd rather pay my good players than mediocre. No team is structured perfectly. If they were teams wouldn't always have to find a cheaper option.

I would say don’t rely on Tampa and Boston , as league is likely to start with all Canadian division.
 
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Menzinger

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In the past even as recent as last season when a top 6 current forward went down you could toss a AJ or Kapanen in there beside AM or JT, replacing Hyman and Mikheyev short-term and now the Leafs really only have Kerfoot to toss into that top 6 role and he is already suppose to be Leafs 3rd line C replacement for Kadri who was a cap casualty from the previous year to test this cap heavy theory.

If AM or JT miss time are we expecting 41 year old Thornton or 38 year old Spezza to step in and play 20+ minutes a night and then bottom fill his roster spot with and Engval?
or
Are we going to see a Mikheyev -- Kerfoot -- Nylander 2nd line or Hyman -- Kerfoot -- Marner top line?
or say its Marner or Nylander out
&
Are we going to see Hyman -- Matthews -- Kerfoot or Mikheyev -- Tavares -- Kerfoot/Simmonds/Vesey?

Even if Leafs lose players from the their bottom 6 currently say Thornton and Simmonds then are Travis Boyd, Joey Andersen or Denis Malgin going to be asked to replace them, which might still be the case even if Thornton and Simmonds are moved up into the top 6 as injury replacements and their former spots bottom filled?

If say TJ Brodie got hurt who was our biggest summer acquisition and missed a month, we're left with Justin Holl as our only RHD and playing in the top 4 on D, and hoping a yet untested Lehtonen is top 4 capable to fill that other spot. What does a Leafs defense look like if its Reilly/Muzzin or Brodie that miss time?

Injuries are a part of life and inevitable that all teams must face and deal with but with a very top heavy cap strategy, the impact on your roster overall takes on very different look during the year than what starts on paper to begin with. Even if you just picture 3 or 4 secondary non top 4 forwards it looks a lot different because of how much cap they consume and you're left with a bunch of <$1 mil players replacements for current <$ 1 mil regulars and starters.

At 100% healthy the current roster looks like it can test this successful compete theory on a nightly basis while being cap compliant to start with, at least in the regular season to qualify for the playoffs this year, but the Leafs salary structure strategy will really TRULY be tested once injuries become a part of the equation and where we end up at. IMO

To be fair, there are very few teams in the league that could easily handle the loss of a top two centre like JT or Matthews.
 
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seanlinden

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In the past even as recent as last season when a top 6 current forward went down you could toss a AJ or Kapanen in there beside AM or JT, replacing Hyman and Mikheyev short-term and now the Leafs really only have Kerfoot to toss into that top 6 role and he is already suppose to be Leafs 3rd line C replacement for Kadri who was a cap casualty from the previous year to test this cap heavy theory.

If AM or JT miss time are we expecting 41 year old Thornton or 38 year old Spezza to step in and play 20+ minutes a night and then bottom fill his roster spot with and Engval?
or
Are we going to see a Mikheyev -- Kerfoot -- Nylander 2nd line or Hyman -- Kerfoot -- Marner top line?
or say its Marner or Nylander out
&
Are we going to see Hyman -- Matthews -- Kerfoot or Mikheyev -- Tavares -- Kerfoot/Simmonds/Vesey?

Even if Leafs lose players from the their bottom 6 currently say Thornton and Simmonds then are Travis Boyd, Joey Andersen or Denis Malgin going to be asked to replace them, which might still be the case even if Thornton and Simmonds are moved up into the top 6 as injury replacements and their former spots bottom filled?

If say TJ Brodie got hurt who was our biggest summer acquisition and missed a month, we're left with Justin Holl as our only RHD and playing in the top 4 on D, and hoping a yet untested Lehtonen is top 4 capable to fill that other spot. What does a Leafs defense look like if its Reilly/Muzzin or Brodie that miss time?

Injuries are a part of life and inevitable that all teams must face and deal with but with a very top heavy cap strategy, the impact on your roster overall takes on very different look during the year than what starts on paper to begin with. Even if you just picture 3 or 4 secondary non top 4 forwards it looks a lot different because of how much cap they consume and you're left with a bunch of <$1 mil players replacements for current <$ 1 mil regulars and starters.

At 100% healthy the current roster looks like it can test this successful compete theory on a nightly basis while being cap compliant to start with, at least in the regular season to qualify for the playoffs this year, but the Leafs salary structure strategy will really TRULY be tested once injuries become a part of the equation and where we end up at. IMO

To be fair, the Leafs have done a reasonably good job at "insulating" the potential injury to a top 6 forward or two, especially if it's a winger.

They have Vesey, Robertson, Simmonds & Kerfoot who all could be viable top 6 replacements. 3 of them have been 2nd line players for the majority of their career, and Robertson has loads of potential. Behind them, they have guys who can certainly play on a 3rd line including Engvall, Thornton & Spezza.

Even if they lose a centre, Kerfoot, Thornton & Spezza behind one of JT/AM shouldn't neccessarily the end of the world. I think the challenge is that if that happens, the remaining "big 4" will need to show why they're paid $11m (or $7m in the case of Nylander).

When you get paid that kind of money, you need to be able to produce without having another $11m player on your line. Matthews has done it -- putting up 40 goals as a rookie, 34 in 62 as a sophomore, and 37 in 68 in his 3rd year, despite rarely playing with Mitch Marner, and often with Johnsson/Kapanen. Tavares has never really been "tested" without having a great running mate -- 1st year with Marner racks up 47. This year with Nylander, goalscoring down, but still hovering right around a point per game. In the case of Marner -- we have to ask how much of the improvement in his game from high 60s to mid-90s is by virtue of playing consistently alongside Matthews or Tavares, and how much is just the development of his game?

Personally, I think the Leafs are a much more dangerous team taking that talent and spreading them out over 3 lines. Do something like this:
Hyman-Tavares-Marner
Vesey/Robertson-Matthews-Mikheyev
Simmonds-Kerfoot-Nylander

or

Mikheyev-Tavares-Nylander
Hyman-Matthews-Vesey
Robertson-Kerfoot-Marner

It creates a situation where these 4 are accustomed to producing without being "partnered up". It's contrary to the way Sheldon Keefe has managed the team and ice time, but IMO much harder to defend against, and much better over a longer haul.



As for the D, the Leafs have actually built with a fairly "balanced" approach -- largely driven by how little Morgan Rielly makes. There are 58 defencemen who make $5m or more this year. There are only 8 teams who have 3 defencemen making $5m or more -- Arizona, Carolina, Florida, Minnesota, San Jose, St. Louis, Toronto and Vancouver. The amount dedicated to that top 3 ranges from $15.6m (Toronto) to $26.5m (San Jose), with most of the teams between $16.5m and $19m.

Yeah, you can criticize Justin Holl as the #4 defenceman on the team. They're not deep in the sense of a Calgary, Carolina or Minnesota who all have REALLY good 4th-best defencemen... but they have a ton of guys who are likely very solid bottom pair guys, with immediate top 4 upside in Dermott, Sandin, Liljegren. Lehtoenen, and Bogosian for spot duty.

Really the biggest problem there is the lack of "diversity" in the sense that Dermott, Sandin, Liljegren and Lehtonen all seem like similar defencemen (and are mostly left shots).
 
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Jozay

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What's most concerning to me is Dubas has gutted basically all non 'core' salary and is still against the ceiling. The Leafs have their big 4, a handful of essential guys who are signed to value/slightly below value (Brodie, Rielly, Andersen, Muzzin), then the bargain squad.

In terms of dumping salary without moving stars he only has Kerfoot left. After that there is basically no wiggle room aside from trading core players and/or crossing fingers on $1 million guys every year.
Yeah it was a lot more of a sustainable plan when the cap could go up.

I still think the Leafs will be fine, but it involves hitting on more picks, international FA's and the guys already in the system stepping up.

Perfect world, Dermott and Sandin make strides in the next couple years and you move one of Muzzin or Brodie to cover Riellys raise and some other raises too.
 

Wafflewhipper

Registered User
Jan 18, 2014
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The Leafs are set up as the Have and Have Nots based on their salary cap and will need to be carried by their top 4 forwards on nightly basis.

This will be tested in strategy this year in terms of viability, and whether you can get enough secondary scoring, support and contribution from the bottom end of the roster, on nights where your top 4 F are held in check or played at par by the opposition.

What will be the key here however is the ability to overcome injuries which are inevitable, because the depth replacements beyond the current roster will be even below the league minimum players in skill level.
Absolutely not true. Thats the narrative you would like to promote and in doing so you are taking the tack of Simmons and Feschuk by going with that. The team is going to top 6 bottom 6 style. Thats it. This all offense didn’t work so now it changes. Pretty funny you could be that far off actually. It’s not like you aren’t on here much and are a casual fan.
Bad take my man, bad take
 

Wafflewhipper

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Jan 18, 2014
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What's most concerning to me is Dubas has gutted basically all non 'core' salary and is still against the ceiling. The Leafs have their big 4, a handful of essential guys who are signed to value/slightly below value (Brodie, Rielly, Andersen, Muzzin), then the bargain squad.

In terms of dumping salary without moving stars he only has Kerfoot left. After that there is basically no wiggle room aside from trading core players and/or crossing fingers on $1 million guys every year.
You say that like it’s uncommon. It’s not. Lots of teams much worse off. Being against the roof is always difficult but soon as you are good you are against it. It’s solid the way it worked out for us. If by gutted you mean Kappy and Johnsson, they didn’t produce to their pay grade and we got decent value back with the salary cap space alone. Thats not gutting actually for me. Regrouping more like it. We are better than previously with the depth so likelyhood is more successful for it.
 

Wafflewhipper

Registered User
Jan 18, 2014
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Tampa might fall off slightly, if not back. Boston could be battling injuries to start. Will the divisions remain as we know them though? Could there be something to having an all Canadian division? Guess we'll find out.
Haha this article says we are a lesser team now with projected adv stats. I don’t know about these things anymore. I think we are better and deeper after keeping everyone we wanted and expected to. https://thehockeywriters.com/maple-leafs-proposed-canadian-division-domination-2021/
 
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Menzinger

Kessel4LadyByng
Apr 24, 2014
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To be fair, Tampa Bay just won the Stanley Cup with their #1C Stamkos missing almost the entire playoffs. :)

Sure. Theyre probably the only one I could think of that could handle that.

Tampa is the best team in the league, the Leafs arent that.
 

Wafflewhipper

Registered User
Jan 18, 2014
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Sure. Theyre probably the only one I could think of that could handle that.

Tampa is the best team in the league, the Leafs arent that.
They weren’t very good last year out in four games to Columbus. Then they added grit and what do you know eh, they win a cup. Now they have to subtract after winning a cup. They just happen to not win and it’s a different take I’d bet

Edit: thats to take nothing away from T bay. Good on them but thats the way it goes when you are that good of a team. Thats a trade off i would take for our leafs if it meant a cup. Congratulations tbay. We have the same scenario building with the same limited window to win it all. We have Freddy and Hyman next year. Rielly the following year etc. It’s a thin margin with a cap.
 
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Wafflewhipper

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Jan 18, 2014
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I don’t think better or worse, more of a sideways move.
I think more adaptive as a group with likely not much if any scoring lost. Defensemen are deeper looking. Things point to better defensively for me after evaluating the adds and subtracts. Bottom six will look more gritty also.
I really like the moves
 

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