Speculation: Let's face the truth, this is not a good team.

[sandysan]

They were better than that last season and in this craptastic conference there's no reason whatsoever they can't do better than the bubble this year.

we backed into it last year. We were lucky that they played well for a while because it was clear, the last 10 regular season games or so the habs were awful and we only won the division because the bruins were somehow, worse.

And I'm tired with this " we won the division", this team is simply not built to be able to beat the vast majority of teams in the east unless we get OUTSTANDING goaltending in a 7 game series.

I fear that we are going to get exactly the same as we have been getting, exceed expectations in the regular season to be jettisioned the exact same way in the playoffs and then we will head the same thing " well we finished well in the division". Its like the same refrain that we dont need to get bigger becuase we did well in the regular season, and that if the playoffs were to start tomorrow, we would do okay against boston because we beat them the last 4 rs games.

I guess it boils down to that doing well in the RS is not the salve it appears to be for some when the teams deficiciencies only ever get addressed peripherally.

 

[Domenic]

This is what has disappointed me the most. Moreover, it's kind of worrying that Bergevin keeps showing signs that he isn't properly able to assess the talent of his team and players. When he came in, he under-sold his team, thinking they were a bottom feeder. He under-sold PK Subban and Eller's potential. And this summer he was unable to see that this team needed only a couple of pieces to compete, at least in the weak east.

It's frustrating to think about, especially when he made a move that should have been last or even off his list of priorities, i.e., sign Daniel Briere.

Ya he did none of these things.

What he did say was that he was looking to build a perennial winner, not just a team that could compete here and there. He also said that a perennial winner is built through the draft, and not via free agency or the trade market.

Not once did he say the Habs were a few players away from contending. Rightfully so, because they aren't.

 

[Kriss E]

Some great discussions going on here. I miss this. Reminds me of the good ol'days. Thanks Lshap, Lafeurs Guy, MathMan, KrissE, Smoky Thompson. I was glued to my screen these past couple of pages.



This is what has disappointed me the most. Moreover, it's kind of worrying that Bergevin keeps showing signs that he isn't properly able to assess the talent of his team and players. When he came in, he under-sold his team, thinking they were a bottom feeder. He under-sold PK Subban and Eller's potential. And this summer he was unable to see that this team needed only a couple of pieces to compete, at least in the weak east.

It's frustrating to think about, especially when he made a move that should have been last or even off his list of priorities, i.e., sign Daniel Briere.

Ya, many of Bergevin's moves have been odd. MathMan says it's from the Cole trade, but I'll include the PK negotiation too. I certainly hope he rights the ship. I don't want to lose faith in our GM, but I just don't understand the assessments this organization has made..

 

[LePoche69]

We've lost 2 in a row. The sky is falling!! The sky is falling!!

Stop that. This thread was going on even during the winning streak. It's mainly a healthy discussion about assessing the real value of this team, with its positive and negative, and what could/should or couldn't/shouldn't been done.

 

[Habsterix*]

Inasmuch as Bergevin has a plan... I think that was his plan. Character. Grit. Toughness. I think he genuinely thought those moves would help the club. They all predictably flopped, but I think he thought they were good.

I don't think Bergevin ever planned a full-rebuild-from-scratch. That would've been silly to do to a team in Montreal's position anyway. Given that the club had real talent already at all positions, was going to add a high draft pick, and is sitting on a practically unlimited budget, he could've all but sat on his hands and gotten credit for a turnaround. His early moves weren't too bad, but pretty much everything he's done since that Cole-Ryder trade...

You're right, it's not working. They've just gone from worst in the Eastern Conference to one of the top teams in the last two years, while filling the prospect pool with big guys so they can develop them instead of paying through the nose to get them! Oh yeah, I forgot, they're over-performing.

 

[WeThreeKings]

Stop that. This thread was going on even during the winning streak. It's mainly a healthy discussion about assessing the real value of this team, with its positive and negative, and what could/should or couldn't/shouldn't been done.

It's just a matter of identifying the issues with this team..

DD, Gionta, Briere need to go.

Bourque-Plekanec-XXXX
Pacioretty-Galchenyuk-Gallagher
Bournival-Eller-XXXX
Prust-White-Moen

Markov-Subban
Emelin-????
Diaz-Gorges

We can see we need to get some scoring RWs with size, Galchenyuk needs to move to center and a we need a legitimate 4th defenseman.

 

[Andy]

You're right, it's not working. They've just gone from worst in the Eastern Conference to one of the top teams in the last two years, while filling the prospect pool with big guys so they can develop them instead of paying through the nose to get them! Oh yeah, I forgot, they're over-performing.

Outside of Prust and Galchenyuk, the team made the jump back to the top of the conference with players assembled mostly by Gauthier. Bergevin has done about as little as you could in the last year and a half. It's funny because MathMan predicted this exact scenario months before Montreal hired a new GM. The core Begrevin inherited was a good one and he's been about as laissez-faire as you can get. That the team is where it is says something more about the core that transitioned between two GMs than it does about the GM.

Thus far Bergevin has not been able to identify, assess the true potential of his team which is why he makes dumb moves like signing Daniel Briere.

Oh and....

 

[Smokey Thompson]

You're right, it's not working. They've just gone from worst in the Eastern Conference to one of the top teams in the last two years, while filling the prospect pool with big guys so they can develop them instead of paying through the nose to get them! Oh yeah, I forgot, they're over-performing.

That's because we have a world class goalie, a great first pairing on the back end, and some key players up front. We have way too many passengers and players on the decline to pose a threat to teams like the Bruins or the Pens in the East.

Some different moves would have potentially put us on par with the Bruins and Pens, or atleast closer than we are now.

 

[Galchenioretty]

As long as we keep getting .935 goaltending we'll be fiiiiine.

 

[otto bond]

You're right, it's not working. They've just gone from worst in the Eastern Conference to one of the top teams in the last two years, while filling the prospect pool with big guys so they can develop them instead of paying through the nose to get them! Oh yeah, I forgot, they're over-performing.

TBH, the year we finished almost last, JM was fired and then the **** hit the fan. JM was not doing that bad aside from a rocky start add to this the injury bug. Last year, new management, few new players and a healthy line-up(Markov) and things changes.
In all honesty, I have no problem developing prospect but at the same time, all the teams who have built trou the draft have all made significant trades to looped to the top. Hawks with Hossa, LA with Richard and Carter. Pittsburgh with Hossa, even if they didn't win, they did the next year. Anaheim with Pronger could be a HM.
Nothing is guarantied for sure, look at NYI, CLB and others have all tried this but nothing to show for.

 

[otto bond]

Outside of Prust and Galchenyuk, the team made the jump back to the top of the conference with players assembled mostly by Gauthier. Bergevin has done about as little as you could in the last year and a half. It's funny because MathMan predicted this exact scenario months before Montreal hired a new GM. The core Begrevin inherited was a good one and he's been about as laissez-faire as you can get. That the team is where it is says something more about the core that transitioned between two GMs than it does about the GM.

Thus far Bergevin has not been able to identify, assess the true potential of his team which is why he makes dumb moves like signing Daniel Briere.

Oh and....

Have you seen allllllllll of his assitant. Thank goodness that mangement doesn't count on the cap.

 

[Andy]

Have you seen allllllllll of his assitant. Thank goodness that mangement doesn't count on the cap.

I didn't realize all of his assistants actually suit-up for games. Sure he might have changed culture and the management team, but the personnel on the ice is largely the same. Outside of Murray, the defense is the same D that finished the season Habs finished last.

Prust and Galchenyuk have been the only real significant additions to the forward group. Even Bournival was acquired by Gauthier and Gallagher was cut on the last day of camp under Martin. If all it took was a 3rd liner and a prospect who is currently playing like a top 6 forward (though he clearly has the potential to be a star), then the team wasn't as bad as it was that year. Bergevin inherited a good core. MathMan predicted exactly what is happening months before the Habs even hired a new GM.

 

[68*]

The Habs are a good regular season team and a good power play team. They might beat teams like Ottawa in the playoffs but against big, disciplined teams with skill, they're gonna get destroyed.

Desharnais, Diaz, Bouillon, Gionta, Briere need to go. Gallagher is the only midget I would keep.

 

[LePoche69]

It's just a matter of identifying the issues with this team..

DD, Gionta, Briere need to go.

Bourque-Plekanec-XXXX
Pacioretty-Galchenyuk-Gallagher
Bournival-Eller-XXXX
Prust-White-Moen

Markov-Subban
Emelin-????
Diaz-Gorges

We can see we need to get some scoring RWs with size, Galchenyuk needs to move to center and a we need a legitimate 4th defenseman.

I mainly agree with you here.

Just my 2 cents:

• I think Emelin is a #4. Habs need a #3. Hamrlik-like.
• I agree with the holes you're pointing at. Since no prospect are developping to be able to fill them before 2-4 years, I would be willing to deal Plek to fill one of these holes with something substential. It would hurt short term, but given the pace at which the young core is developping, with the right piece, it could turn around pretty fast.

 

[otto bond]

I didn't realize all of his assistants actually suit-up for games. Sure he might have changed culture and the management team, but the personnel on the ice is largely the same. Outside of Murray, the defense is the same D then finished the season Habs finished last.

Prust and Galchenyuk have been the only real significant additions to the forward group. Even Bournival was acquired by Gauthier and Gallagher was cut on the last of camp under Martin. If all it took was a 3rd liner and a prospect who is currently playing like a top 6 forward (though he clearly has the potential to be a star), then the team wasn't as bad as it was that year. Bergevin inherited a good core. MathMan predicted exactly what is happening months before the Habs even hired a new GM.

forgot this part:

 

[Andy]

forgot this part:

Ahh, now it makes sense

 

[Sorinth]

26 - 74 are consistently trapped in their zone. If they can't get the puck out (without icing it) how will the forwards be able to maintain any pressure in the offensive zone?

I don't understand why Emelin is the one playing RD on that pairing. Emelin's the better passer of the two and so would benefit from playing his proper side much more than Gorges does and it's not like Gorges doesn't have any experience playing RD.

But I think it's time to end the Markov/Subban pairing so we can have an proper PMD on each pairing.

 

[Smokey Thompson]

I don't understand why Emelin is the one playing RD on that pairing. Emelin's the better passer of the two and so would benefit from playing his proper side much more than Gorges does and it's not like Gorges doesn't have any experience playing RD.

But I think it's time to end the Markov/Subban pairing so we can have an proper PMD on each pairing.

That might work. We'd have two good pairings. Subban has shown that he can carry Gorges, and Markov-Emelin was decent last season.

The problem arises when we need to shutdown lines like the Pens power line, or Ovie-Backstrom, etc. Markov Subban have been relied on to shutdown these lines. I don't know if either of Gorges-Subban or Markov-Emelin can shut them down. Also if we keep using Markov-Subban on the PP, it'll mess things up after every powerplay as one or the other will be forced to double shift.

 

[Habs]

Hey, we are a good team against small teams... looks like that's all that matters to the braintrust.

 

[habsrock76]

Wasn't it also about the 30 game mark last year when this team hit a wall and never really recovered (Emelin injury aside).

It should be interesting to see if this losing spell continues and the same thing happens again.

What MB does under real pressure for the first time mid-season will give us an indication of what he's made of...

 

[JLP]

Hey, we are a good team against small teams... looks like that's all that matters to the braintrust.

Beating small and weak opponents will get us into the playoffs most years. For some that's enough.

 

[MathMan]

Wasn't it also about the 30 game mark last year when this team hit a wall and never really recovered (Emelin injury aside).

Very different issue. That year the goaltending abruptly went to pot and the possession and scoring chances stayed more or less okay.

This year the goaltending's mostly keeping up but the possession has been nosediving for 15 games.

 

[Sorinth]

That might work. We'd have two good pairings. Subban has shown that he can carry Gorges, and Markov-Emelin was decent last season.

The problem arises when we need to shutdown lines like the Pens power line, or Ovie-Backstrom, etc. Markov Subban have been relied on to shutdown these lines. I don't know if either of Gorges-Subban or Markov-Emelin can shut them down. Also if we keep using Markov-Subban on the PP, it'll mess things up after every powerplay as one or the other will be forced to double shift.

Even against the Pens right now we send out Markov - Subban against Crosby which is great but that leaves Gorges - Emelin to go up against Malkin. That doesn't exactly inspire confidence. If a team has only 1 offensive line, then sure Markov/Subban makes some sense but chances are they are not that good of a team to begin with if they only have one productive line.

 

[Smokey Thompson]

Even against the Pens right now we send out Markov - Subban against Crosby which is great but that leaves Gorges - Emelin to go up against Malkin. That doesn't exactly inspire confidence. If a team has only 1 offensive line, then sure Markov/Subban makes some sense but chances are they are not that good of a team to begin with if they only have one productive line.

Yea you're right it could work. At the very least it'll spread out the talent and make our top4 more balanced.

 

[dutchy29]

It's just a matter of identifying the issues with this team..

DD, Gionta, Briere need to go.

Bourque-Plekanec-XXXX
Pacioretty-Galchenyuk-Gallagher
Bournival-Eller-XXXX
Prust-White-Moen

Markov-Subban
Emelin-????
Diaz-Gorges

We can see we need to get some scoring RWs with size, Galchenyuk needs to move to center and a we need a legitimate 4th defenseman.

\
I like this breakdown, Im concerned though that time/money may not permit, Like a lot of people have mentioned the DD signing was a mistake as was the Briere signing and by the time we can off load them players like Markov, Pleks, Gorges are going to be to far past their prime to give everything they have shown this season.
If DD stays hot and we could package him and Briere for an honest return ex. like you mentioned a big scoring winger, i'd be all for it. but i think its a tough sale. It has "lets unload our smurfs written all over it" Bergevin may have missed his window for a cup run, but for the sake of all Hab fans lets hope he hasn't. Till then i'm cheering for the team that is currently here and I believe they can have success.