Leonsis comments on Caps profitability

Brent Burns Beard

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As Pepper alluded to above me, the difference is that small-market fans didn't want to be put at a massive disadvantage. .

ya, the NYR, PHI, and TOR sure proved what an advantage they had on everyone else. I mean, when you look at all their cup final appearances and compare it to how many BUF, WSH and TBY had, its clear who had the advantage.

I said it before and will say it again, the biggest winners in the lockout were not the small markets, it was the mega markets who now can pocket an extra 20million per year because they cant spend their way to mediocrity.

But at least the teachers in Ontario are richer, nothing wrong with that, teachers deserve it.
 

Brent Burns Beard

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...I don't recall any fans suggesting that either.

.

i did ... the old system was just fine. but you all go on and believe otherwise, their is no battle for me to win, the old system is gone and frankly i cant say it has affected my life one bit, other than my interest in hockey has gone down signicantly since the owners shut down the league.
 

SuperUnknown

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i did ... the old system was just fine. but you all go on and believe otherwise, their is no battle for me to win, the old system is gone and frankly i cant say it has affected my life one bit, other than my interest in hockey has gone down signicantly since the owners shut down the league.

That's only one opinion. I like the "new" NHL much better (other than the zillion penalties). All teams are more balanced which means that they're all a bit more offensive than before. Games are in general all entertaining, with a minority of games being snoozers.
 

Brent Burns Beard

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That's only one opinion. I like the "new" NHL much better (other than the zillion penalties). All teams are more balanced which means that they're all a bit more offensive than before. Games are in general all entertaining, with a minority of games being snoozers.

you are entitled to your opinion, i know mine is not popular.

i would like to add though, the flip side to "everyone has a chance to win" is that "everyone has a chance to lose".

In other words, you can have teams who just dont know how to build a team, but are forced to build the same way as the good organizations, win.

In otherwords, teams that are notorious for being a poor organization (see NYR) has just as much chance to win as teams who have always built properly (see OTT).

Under the old system, NYR and TOR had very little chance to win, as history has proven. Now they have just as much chance to win as TBY, NJD and COL. Seems fair that small markets like Tampa, East Rutherford and Denver now have to compete with New York and Toronto on the same playing field?
 

Injektilo

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http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Co...2&call_pageid=1044442959412&col=1044442957278


"While I'm not in a position to attest to the magnitude, we do believe that the new CBA has generally increased franchise values around the league, and increased them substantially," deputy commissioner Bill Daly wrote in an email response to the Star.

"We have received a renewed enthusiasm from people who want to own, invest in, and lend capital to the NHL and NHL franchises. That's not unexpected. That's what the CBA was intended to accomplish."


Bill Daly seems to know what the real reason for the lockout was.
 

hockeytown9321

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Jun 18, 2004
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I sure wasn't privy to the negotiations and I'm doubt you were either, to be making a statement like this. I feel certain that the NHLPA probably considered and proposed many alternative solutions to the NHL during negotiations.

Yes, the PA proposed many options. The NHL did not.

All you have to do is look at the NFL and the NBA as prime examples of wildly successful leagues who are profiting because of salary caps and revenue sharing.

I do look at the NFL and NBA. I even suggested a combination of their CBA's earlier in the thread. Once again, revenue sharing is the key here.

The owners are making tons of $$ on their investments

Good for them. Personally, I really don't care if Mike Ilitch or Jeremy Jacobs are worth $1 billion or $2 billion.

and each team can turn around a bad team by making the right free agent moves, and they can do it fairly quickly if they want to spend up to the cap, or they can still be competitive and build the old fashioned way, through the draft. The Caps are doing it right now.

Many teams would lose significant money by spending to the cap, since there is not adequate revenue sharing.
 

hockeytown9321

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First of all, he said most teams will lower ticket prices and that's what actually happened.

For a season. At leaset a dozen teams publically announced increases for this season.



Affordable is not the same as lowered ticket prices. Semantics but still true nonetheless.

There was much complaining from fans about player salary being responsible for high ticket prices. Many people claimed they were not affordabe. Prices are at largely the same level as before the lockout. Still unaffordable.
 

hockeytown9321

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Make it a level playing field. Thats the only fair thing. Baseball's next - you watch. I wanna play devils advocate though. Why is the old NHL better for all fans?

Baseball just renewed their CBA a month or so ago. I've yet to read any negative comments about their system from Bud Selig. Also, since MLB adotped their system in August 2002, there has only been 1 team to make the World Series more than once, and no team has won it more than once. The Yankees have yet to win under it.

The only thing I'd change in their system is that teams that receive revenue sharing money should be forced to reinvest it in their team. Owners like Pittsburgh's and Kansas City's are pocketing millions each year all the while complaining about how they can't compete.
 

me2

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ya, the NYR, PHI, and TOR sure proved what an advantage they had on everyone else. I mean, when you look at all their cup final appearances and compare it to how many BUF, WSH and TBY had, its clear who had the advantage.

Funny you leave out big spending teams if they were successful (Wings, Stars, etc) because it makes your arguments look better.

BUF (1)
WSH (1)
TBY (1)

3 appearances, 1 each over a great number of years. So conclusive.........


Let look at the p lockout finalists, have all been small market teams.

I said it before and will say it again, the biggest winners in the lockout were not the small markets, it was the mega markets who now can pocket an extra 20million per year because they cant spend their way to mediocrity.

The winners are not the mega markets. The owners of teams in megamarkets are winners, the teams and markets are not. Attempting to blur the two (owners vs teams-markets) so that it looks like small market teams are losers in this is an extremely weak argument. Money, to a fair degree, has been removed from the equation. It's much fairer from a playing perspective.

If the teachers pocketing $40m more lead to a fairer and more balanced league, well I can live with that. The bigger market owners can pocket more cash, players get their cut of it, cap maintains playing balance. Win-Win-Win.
 
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Brent Burns Beard

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Why is the old NHL better for all fans?

because under this new system, the owners promised the players a partnership whereby the players income is tied to the owners ability to generate income.

therefore, the owners are obligated to maximize every square inch of revenue, whereby before they could make decisions without any thought of their obligation to the players.

for instance, if the owners can charge $200 for a ticket, they are obligated as the revenue "partner" to do so. if the owners can sell advertisements on the jersey, they are obligated as the revenue "partner" to do so. taking it a step further, if the owners can charge the fan a step access fee of $5.00 per step to get to the nose bleeds, they are obligated as the revenue "partner" to do so.

well, obligated means if they want to be able to show up at the next CBA discussions and show the players that they did their part in the "partnership". didnt the owners say "partner with us and we will grow the game together"? isnt "growing the game" simply buzz words for increasing revenues and therefore increasing how much money the players make, the whole point of the spin on partnership and the players share of revenue.

owners being obligated by virtue of their role in the partnership to exhaust any and all streams of revenue is NOT good for the fans.
 

Brent Burns Beard

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Funny you leave out big spending teams if they were successful (ie Wings) because it makes your arguments look better..

because the Wings built their team primarly through drafting, isnt that the hallmark of "the plan".

Let's see, post lockout the finalist have all been small market teams...

true, small sampling. just proves nothing changed, simply the owners pockets got deeper. small markets made the finals just about every year before this last one too.


The winners are not the mega markets. The owners of teams in megamarkets are winners, the teams are not. Attempting to blur the two so that it looks like small market teams are losers in this is extremely weak. Money, to a fair degree, has been removed from the equation. It's much fairer from a playing perspective. If the teachers pocketing $40m more lead to a fairer and more balanced league, well I can live with that.

i say the biggest winners are hte owners in the big markets. the fans won nothing, but if you like to believe it, so be it. i know my opinion isnt popular.

i think its actualy an unfair league now. teams like OTT (as an example) have as much chance to lose as do teams like NYR. the cap leveled the playing field so that NYR has as much chance as OTT to win, and I dont believe they should have that right by virtue of one locked out season. NYR spending never hurt anyone but themselves.
 

Weary

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Doh, this shouldn't be so hard.

One group wanted an equal playing field, the other group wanted their teams to keep huge advantage over other teams.

Now which group was being selfish?

It isn't so hard. Each wishes to limit the success of the other in order to enhance their own chances for success. Both are selfish. Q.E.D.
 

Pepper

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It isn't so hard. Each wishes to limit the success of the other in order to enhance their own chances for success. Both are selfish. Q.E.D.

Well you have obviously made up your mind so I won't bother pointing the holes in your logic.
 

Pepper

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because under this new system, the owners promised the players a partnership whereby the players income is tied to the owners ability to generate income.

therefore, the owners are obligated to maximize every square inch of revenue, whereby before they could make decisions without any thought of their obligation to the players.

for instance, if the owners can charge $200 for a ticket, they are obligated as the revenue "partner" to do so. if the owners can sell advertisements on the jersey, they are obligated as the revenue "partner" to do so. taking it a step further, if the owners can charge the fan a step access fee of $5.00 per step to get to the nose bleeds, they are obligated as the revenue "partner" to do so.

well, obligated means if they want to be able to show up at the next CBA discussions and show the players that they did their part in the "partnership". didnt the owners say "partner with us and we will grow the game together"? isnt "growing the game" simply buzz words for increasing revenues and therefore increasing how much money the players make, the whole point of the spin on partnership and the players share of revenue.

owners being obligated by virtue of their role in the partnership to exhaust any and all streams of revenue is NOT good for the fans.

Wow, just wow. I think you should read the new CBA again.
 

Chimaera

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Like I said, and like I explained in detail here 2 years ago, a soft cap which allows teams a Larry Bird like exception, an extremely stiff luxury tax, and a 54 or 55 or whatever pecent the league wanted celing on player salary league wide. This addresses my concern about teams being torn apart, provides much more revenue sharing money for the small markets, and provides cost certainty.


Ok. Lets start from the top. You can't have a "soft" cap, with a very stiff luxury tax. That basically makes it a hard cap. If the luxury tax is prohibitive to spending over the limit (say an exorbitantly high fee, or a steep penalty of picks) then that would limit just how soft the cap is. Either way, a soft cap (or one with any penalties) still allows teams who can make significantly higher profits pay over that range, and drive up the market for players. The difference in some of the top earning franchises and the bottom 10 or so is still wide enough where agreeing to any sort of soft cap at all would be very unlikely. When you have franchises who are losing money, they are not going to agree to allow other teams to spend like they have in the past. Even with penalties. Look at MLB. A few top teams still drive others out of profitability (with response to being able to field a competitive team). And hockey probably makes less in tv/tickets/etc in a lot of similar markets.

As far as a Larry Bird type rule, the Players association would've fought that tooth and nail. While on one point they might want to see their stars get paid, it does not help the rank and file member by limiting the salaries being able to be spread around. Similarly, the problems it would cause with players being stuck in a market they would not desire to be in would limit the effectiveness. Not to mention, those types of clauses are franchise killers more often they being helpful.


My other solution was that every cent generated by every team goes into a community account. At the end of the year, they divide it equally 30 ways. That would hurt my team more than most. But I'm the selfish one.

The problem is, no team would agree to this. You can't measure the funds of the franchises. If you look at the teams, they aren't a collective unit. They're basically individual companies that are paying a membership fee. To count their own revenue directly, and have to pool it would basically be impossible to get many owners to agree to. the only way you can realistically get something like this done, is pooling TV revenue, or advertising revenue. That runs into the problem that is at the base of much of this current CBA, there are no dollars for TV money (well, next to none). If the league had high revenue's to split for TV, they would worry less about who out earns someone else in their own markets.

Who knows what the PA would've accepted. The NHL never offered them anything but a hard cap. Yeah the PA handled the negotiations terribly too. Neither side should be absolved for their refusal consider anything different. To the PA's credit, they never once proposed to keep the old system. I don't recall any fans suggesting that either.

My problem with the cap is it has not, and will not, accomplish what we were told it would without meaningful revenue sharing. I don't blame the cap for the disparities, I blame the league for not addressing them.


the problem is, a hard cap was what the owners wanted. Anything else would just be playing into the pocket of the many.

Cost certainty and competitiveness is what will help keep the NHL around long term. If there is any avenue to allowing teams to just drive up the player contracts to amounts where everyone isn't on an even playing field, the sport will be hurt.
 

Weary

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Well you have obviously made up your mind so I won't bother pointing the holes in your logic.

Please feel free to. I would be quite interested to discover how looking out for one's own interests is not selfishness. I am under the impression that that is the very definition of selfishness.
 

Pepper

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Please feel free to. I would be quite interested to discover how looking out for one's own interests is not selfishness. I am under the impression that that is the very definition of selfishness.

Wanting equal basis for operation and the good of the league is not selfish, wanting your own favorite team to have a financial advantage over others while hurting the league is selfish.

It's all semantics anyway, here's the definition of Merriam-Webster:

1 : concerned excessively or exclusively with oneself : seeking or concentrating on one's own advantage, pleasure, or well-being without regard for others
2 : arising from concern with one's own welfare or advantage in disregard of others <a selfish act>


Small market fans don't want an advantage for themselves, they don't want well-being WITHOUT regard for others.

Some big market fans do.

So there you go.
 

Pepper

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i think you should as well ... what part of my post was contrary to the new CBA? more precisely, the spirit of the CBA.

The whole post. Owners' job is to maximize the revenues, they do it regardless of what kind of CBA they have but they don't HAVE to do it because of the new CBA.

So if you see ads on jerseys, it has nothing to do with CBA and everything to do with owners wanting extra revenues in general, not because they have some obligation to PA to place ads on jerseys to bring extra revenues.
 

Brent Burns Beard

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The whole post. Owners' job is to maximize the revenues, they do it regardless of what kind of CBA they have but they don't HAVE to do it because of the new CBA.

So if you see ads on jerseys, it has nothing to do with CBA and everything to do with owners wanting extra revenues in general, not because they have some obligation to PA to place ads on jerseys to bring extra revenues.

you are wrong.

the owners claimed this CBA was pioneering a new type of partnership between league and players. clearly the owners role in the partnership is to provide the mechanisms of revenue growth. they sold the players on this, claiming help us grow the game and will share 54% of all that with you.

in the end this means, the owners are obligated to the players to squeeze every red cent from our pockets.
 

Royalwings

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Small market fans don't want an advantage for themselves, they don't want well-being WITHOUT regard for others.

Some big market fans do.

Somehow I'm skeptical that EDM fans were just as worried about the Fames and Canucks ability to compete as they were about the Oilers.

I want my team to have the greatest advantage possible. I don't plan on apologizing for that. I'm passionate about my team and want them to win every game.

Most people think...
Big payroll = 3 Cups for Detroit
More Accurately...
2 Cups for Detroit = Big payroll
The Wings paid to keep the winning players they had. The new CBA makes sure no one will be able to do that anymore. So the Oilers still won't be able to keep all of their young talent but fans will feel better because the Wings won't be able to either.
 

Chimaera

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I disagree. Teams who do well can still keep their talent.

They just can't go overboard.

There has to be choices made, and a restocking of the system. A team that drafts well, and can find cheap replacements for mid range players will be rewarded in this type of system.


Look at the NFL. Good teams that want to can keep their top talent for a # of years. In the NHL that will be the same situation. however at some point, secondary talent will be at a crossroads in most organizations. Does a team pay the raise that a 3rd or 4th defenseman might find on the open market? Or do they try to replace that hole from within? Those are the decisions that will make or break franchises and their ability to be competitive.


Teams will be able to keep their stars and their top talents if they draft smart and sign solid contracts. they just need to have solid talent evaluators, so they lock into the right players. A dead weight contract will mean the loss of talent. Think of it this way, those Red Wings teams probably would have still had most of their players. They just might have missed out on a Draper or a Holmstrom and had a cheaper, younger replacement. Would that have made the team worse? A tad bit. But not to the point of where they wouldn't have been competitive.
 

hockeytown9321

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Ok. Lets start from the top. You can't have a "soft" cap, with a very stiff luxury tax.

Sure you can. The NBA has proven this concept is possible.

As far as a Larry Bird type rule, the Players association would've fought that tooth and nail. While on one point they might want to see their stars get paid, it does not help the rank and file member by limiting the salaries being able to be spread around. Similarly, the problems it would cause with players being stuck in a market they would not desire to be in would limit the effectiveness. Not to mention, those types of clauses are franchise killers more often they being helpful.

Again, I really don't care how much money the players or owners make. My suggestions are for fans and for the stability of the league as a whole.




The problem is, no team would agree to this. You can't measure the funds of the franchises. If you look at the teams, they aren't a collective unit.

I know they wouldn't agree to it. That doesn't mean it wouldn't stabilize small market teams. More hypocrisy from the NHL.



the problem is, a hard cap was what the owners wanted.

Yes, that was the problem. Its too bad they didn't want a system that would really address all the issues.
 

hockeytown9321

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Think of it this way, those Red Wings teams probably would have still had most of their players. They just might have missed out on a Draper or a Holmstrom and had a cheaper, younger replacement. Would that have made the team worse? A tad bit. But not to the point of where they wouldn't have been competitive.

The Red Wings strength was their depth. Yes they had Yzerman, Fedorov, Shanahan and Lidstrom as superstars. But it was guys like Doug Brown, Kozlov, Draper, McCarty, Larry Murphy who were the reason they won. And those are the type of players who teams will lose becuase of the cap. There will always be teams willing to overpay for those types of players, much like what happened when Lapointe was signed by Boston.
 

hockeytown9321

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Most people think...
Big payroll = 3 Cups for Detroit
More Accurately...
2 Cups for Detroit = Big payroll

Exactly, really only the 2002 had a huge payroll. And even then, they only had 2 major free agents on that team: Hull and Robitaille who both took less money to come to Detroit.
 

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