Value of: Leon Draisaitl

[Viqsi]

GMs don't care. This isn't trading Pokemon cards during Recess. If you have assets that another team feels will improve their team, do you really believe they're going to say no just because you improved your team massively? I mean, I can speak from my experience as an Oilers fan and tell you that Kevin Lowe had no problem making trades even after acquiring Chris Pronger for the hockey equivalent of pocket lint back in 2006. In fact, it probably made it easier, since players wanted to play on a team with Chris Pronger. GMs certainly didn't collude to shut him out of the trade market.

When you deliberately create holes on your team, GMs demand high prices to fill those holes, because they know you're desperate. This is not rocket science.

Not me. Or are you not reading what I'm saying?

Don't you try that gaslighting bullshit with me. This little talk began with this comment of yours:

We've already seen what it looks like when the shoe is on the other foot, and it's Columbus fans demanding nothing less than a PLD clone (or more) for PLD. I don't see how in good conscience they can then turn around and claim Dubois + spare parts for Draisaitl is at all fair.

And I pointed out that no Jackets fan had said that. And you countered by attempting to read something into my words that wasn't there, and this went back and forth for a little while. And now suddenly you're claiming you were never complaining about that in the first place? Hell no.

Well no, I don't take it as a "blood insult", whatever that is. And I'm not talking about "every possible consideration about team building"- I'm talking about one specific player at one specific position. The Jackets go from PLD-Domi-Texier down the middle

Texier is actually the #1C right now, since PLD is dogging it. So you've already failed at trying to tell me about my own team. It is not your place to tell other team's fans what is good for their team or not. We know the players involved. We know how good Draisaitl is. While some guesses are inevitable, and indeed in this case some suggestions were made based on that, in the end none of us presumed to triple down and inflexibly dogmatically dictate what is or is not good for Edmonton, and it'd be a little nice if y'all could extend us the same basic courtesy.

But it starts with a superstar more often than not. There's a reason Kucherov/Hedman/Stamkos, Ovechkin, Crosby/Malkin all have their name on the Cup- it's because they're f***ing awesome at hockey.

Gosh, I really "appreciate" the supposition that we don't actually have anybody of sufficient quality on the Blue Jackets already.

And before you try to make some snide comment about how much winning the Jackets have done with said players, I would opine something about glass housing residence and the concurrent wisdom of throwing rocks.

 

[DropTheGloves]

When you deliberately create holes on your team, GMs demand high prices to fill those holes, because they know you're desperate. This is not rocket science.

But again, that doesn't really happen. Going back to the Pronger example, Lowe was able to fill his biggest need- goaltending- by trading a 1st for Dwayne Roloson, which is pretty standard deadline fare. The Wild didn't hold out and demand they throw in the rest of our picks plus whoever our top prospect was at the time. Why? Because GMs value the relationships they have with one another. Being petty only burns bridges, in business and life.

Don't you try that gaslighting bullshit with me. This little talk began with this comment of yours:

And I pointed out that no Jackets fan had said that. And you countered by attempting to read something into my words that wasn't there, and this went back and forth for a little while. And now suddenly you're claiming you were never complaining about that in the first place? Hell no.

I didn't take it as a grave insult, no. I was pointing out, and still maintain, that you are being unreasonable. There's no gaslighting there.

Texier is actually the #1C right now, since PLD is dogging it. So you've already failed at trying to tell me about my own team. It is not your place to tell other team's fans what is good for their team or not.

I mean, it kind of is? This is a public forum where people can publicly debate things. If you make a silly comment, don't be surprised when someone tells you it's silly.

Gosh, I really "appreciate" the supposition that we don't actually have anybody of sufficient quality on the Blue Jackets already.

And before you try to make some snide comment about how much winning the Jackets have done with said players, I would opine something about glass housing residence and the concurrent wisdom of throwing rocks.

For being so upset about people apparently putting words into your mouth you're dangerously close to doing that here. No, I actually think the Jackets have more or less done a job building a team that could be another St. Louis- a deep, if not sexy team that can win it all if the conditions are right. But a player like Draisaitl would immensely improve them, just like he'd improve pretty much any other team. There's nothing remotely controversial about that, I don't think?

 

[majormajor]

I can't tell what is being debated here.

It seems like we are in agreement.

Oilers fan says that Texier isn't a worthwhile add in a Draisaitl deal.

Viqsi doesn't want to trade Texier.

So we agree not to involve Texier in a deal. Happy everyone?

 

[Viqsi]

I can't tell what is being debated here.

It seems like we are in agreement.

Oilers fan says that Texier isn't a worthwhile add in a Draisaitl deal.

Viqsi doesn't want to trade Texier.

So we agree not to involve Texier in a deal. Happy everyone?

So far as I can tell the thing being debated is how that second point (my not wanting to trade Texier) is somehow irrational and unreasonable and that I should be jumping for joy at the possibility.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

Seth jones is imo a superstar #1 Defender u can play 30 min a night.
PLD is a young star #1 Center

No way Leon gets that, Edmonton would be so much better

PLD definitely isn't a star #1 center.

 

[Double Dion]

PLD definitely isn't a star #1 center.

Agreed. Jones is a star #1 defenseman, but this narrative that PLD is a #1 center is just false. He had one good year feeding off Panarin (see the centers for NYR both having career years playing with him). He's not a good faceoff guy and is average defensively.

 

[Viqsi]

Agreed. Jones is a star #1 defenseman, but this narrative that PLD is a #1 center is just false. He had one good year feeding off Panarin (see the centers for NYR both having career years playing with him). He's not a good faceoff guy and is average defensively.

He then proceeded to equal that season (in points per game) the year after Panarin left, so that particular tired narrative can go away now.

 

[TFHockey]

I'd compare PLD with RNH. I see PLD as a borderline 1C, and perhaps too good for a 2c.

 

[Double Dion]

He then proceeded to equal that season (in points per game) the year after Panarin left, so that particular tired narrative can go away now.

No he didn't equal his PPG output, it was slightly behind. But his overall performance wasn't close at all. He scored less goals, was a worse possession player and his +/- dropped 18.

 

[Viqsi]

No he didn't equal his PPG output, it was slightly behind. But his overall performance wasn't close at all. He scored less goals, was a worse possession player and his +/- dropped 18.

...playing alongside a rotating cast of AHLers because of the sheer number of injuries the Jackets went through that year.

 

[TFHockey]

No he didn't equal his PPG output, it was slightly behind. But his overall performance wasn't close at all. He scored less goals, was a worse possession player and his +/- dropped 18.

I see +/- as a team stat, not really fair to a single player. But point taken.

 

[Double Dion]

...playing alongside a rotating cast of AHLers because of the sheer number of injuries the Jackets went through that year.

His 4 most frequent linemates were Atkinson. Bjorkstrand, Nyquist and Foligno. Which of those players are AHLers? I love how you just make stuff up to fit your narrative.

 

[Viqsi]

His 4 most frequent linemates were Atkinson. Bjorkstrand, Nyquist and Foligno. Which of those players are AHLers? I love how you just make stuff up to fit your narrative.

Look up how often those guys were injured and then get back to me.

 

[Double Dion]

I see +/- as a team stat, not really fair to a single player. But point taken.

It's an individual stat. Team +/- is a team stat. It's especially notable when a player is a minus player despite their team 5 on 5 play being positive as a whole. As an example, being a minus player for Detroit is to be expected and doesn't reflect as poorly on individual players. Being a minus player for Tampa reflects much more poorly on the individual.

 

[Double Dion]

Look up how often those guys were injured and then get back to me.

I'm saying when Atkinson was out he played with Foligno instead. Not a random AHLer. He played with Bemstrom for instance 4% of the time. In other words almost nothing. Gaudreau played 4% of his shifts with Lucic, but his regular linemates were much higher quality.

 

[Viqsi]

I'm saying when Atkinson was out he played with Foligno instead. Not a random AHLer. He played with Bemstrom for instance 4% of the time. In other words almost nothing. Gaudreau played 4% of his shifts with Lucic, but his regular linemates were much higher quality.

Okay. Pardon my hyperbole. The point being, he was not in a stable situation.

 

[GOilers88]

He then proceeded to equal that season (in points per game) the year after Panarin left, so that particular tired narrative can go away now.

It's a general narrative that needs to get the hell off of these forums.

So tired of the pathetically weak "leeching" or "product of" bullshit that gets thrown around everywhere.

Good players produce and they produce even more with other good players. Good god damn.

 

[Viqsi]

It's a general narrative that needs to get the hell off of these forums.

So tired of the pathetically weak "leeching" or "product of" bullshit that gets thrown around everywhere.

Good players produce and they produce even more with other good players. Good god damn.

I think in some very specific cases one can say that certain players' biggest skill is the ability to support other stars under the right circumstances (see: Strome brothers). But yeah, it's massively overused - and I can easily see why Oilers fans in particular would be sick of abuse of that particular thought-killing cliche. (RNH is a product of Draisaitl is a product of McDavid is a product of Draisaitl is a product of RNH is a product of...)

 

[Stealth1616]

If a thread ever needed to be closed, this is it

 

[Spilot23]

Draisaitl+ for Nichushkin, as per that QAnon-level-of-delusion advanced stats guy on twitter.

Sorry but Nichushkin is untouchable something around Mcdavid would probably get it done though.

 

[majormajor]

Agreed. Jones is a star #1 defenseman, but this narrative that PLD is a #1 center is just false. He had one good year feeding off Panarin (see the centers for NYR both having career years playing with him). He's not a good faceoff guy and is average defensively.

I wouldn't say PLD was a top 20 center, which is what a lot of people call #1C around here, and obviously his point totals with Panarin were boosted by said Panarin. But you responded with another false narrative of your own. He is a developing kid that has all the tools that would lead you to believe he is going to get much better still and work his way into that 10th-20th echelon of centers. He would be considered a classic big-man late-bloomer if not for the Panarin bump.

In the playoffs he had 10 pts in 10 games, 56% on the dot, +3, and Button just mentioned on TSN that he was 2nd among league forwards in loose puck battles won. I think just about every GM is looking at him and expecting him to become a very strong two-way player and a #1C caliber player overall.

 

[majormajor]

I'd compare PLD with RNH. I see PLD as a borderline 1C, and perhaps too good for a 2c.

At 5v5 PLD is already a better center than RNH ever was. RNH's 5v5 scoring rates at center were rarely good even when he had great linemates. RNH has shown to be better on the PP and obviously what he has done as a complementary winger is outstanding and well-deserved.

 

[McSuper]

Surprise this thread is still open . The Oilers aren’t trying to trade Draisaitl . If you want Draisaitl you have to convince the Oilers to trade if and that is going to hurt .

I am also an Oiler fan that would consider moving anyone on the team . Having said that if you want one of our elite centre it going to cost you a 2C + 1D +1G . We can send Klefbom back to help with the lost of your 1D but he is a big question mark . If Klefbom returns to his top form you’ll end up with a solid 2/3 D

 

[TFHockey]

At 5v5 PLD is already a better center than RNH ever was. RNH's 5v5 scoring rates at center were rarely good even when he had great linemates. RNH has shown to be better on the PP and obviously what he has done as a complementary winger is outstanding and well-deserved.

RNH is a two way center. He isn't a PP specialist.

 

[majormajor]

RNH is a two way center. He isn't a PP specialist.

I didn't call him a PP specialist and he is certainly good defensively at 5v5. But the scoring rate stats are what they are. His 5v5 rates at center were like a 2C even with good linemates and he usually scored very well on the PP.