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Lemieux/Jagr vs Gretzky/Messier

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The Winter Soldier

The Winter Soldier

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jj cale said:
crazy with some people thinking messier is the weak link here and overrated.

He is the guy who pushes that duo over the top in a head to head matchup with Mario and Jagr. Messier was a far tougher match playoff player then Jagr ever was and would do what was ncessary to win this match up.

Underrated player on these boards. one of the best centers and players I ever saw and a real winner.
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Agree 100%. People who think Messier was overrated I can only surmise did not see him play. He was a great Center himself. And he could play wing, as he did with Mario and 99 in the Canada Cup to form a memorable line.

I recall he was voted #12 all time best player by the Hockey News voted by former players and coaches. To me he is one of the top 10 players to ever play. Could do it all. Beat you with skill, muscle, meanness, and leadership. Simply a great player. In some ways he was more complete than Gretzky was.
 

bobholly39

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The Winter Soldier said:
Agree 100%. People who think Messier was overrated I can only surmise did not see him play. He was a great Center himself. And he could play wing, as he did with Mario and 99 in the Canada Cup to form a memorable line.

I recall he was voted #12 all time best player by the Hockey News voted by former players and coaches. To me he is one of the top 10 players to ever play. Could do it all. Beat you with skill, muscle, meanness, and leadership. Simply a great player. In some ways he was more complete than Gretzky was.
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Messier is great and all but you're underselling Jagr here.

And Patrice Bergeron is a more complete player than Gretzky ever was. Doesn't make him better.

I like the tools Messier brings to a team that already has Gretzky, more than those Jagr brings.

But if it was just Jagr vs Messier, I pick Jagr very easily. Jagr is one of the most talented players of all time. And one of the only players in history who can probably top Messier in terms of career longevity.
 
Crease Master

Crease Master

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This is actually a tough call, I really had to think about it. I've always felt that Gretzky was a better player than Lemieux, but I also think Jagr is better than Messier which would tighten things up. In the end the pair with the best player gets the nod from me.
 
jj cale

jj cale

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The Winter Soldier said:
Agree 100%. People who think Messier was overrated I can only surmise did not see him play. He was a great Center himself. And he could play wing, as he did with Mario and 99 in the Canada Cup to form a memorable line.

I recall he was voted #12 all time best player by the Hockey News voted by former players and coaches. To me he is one of the top 10 players to ever play. Could do it all. Beat you with skill, muscle, meanness, and leadership. Simply a great player. In some ways he was more complete than Gretzky was.
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I could not agree with your description here more, top ten all time player for me also.


Guy was a bad ass with tons of skill, what a combination.
 
MessierII

MessierII

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bobholly39 said:
Messier is great and all but you're underselling Jagr here.

And Patrice Bergeron is a more complete player than Gretzky ever was. Doesn't make him better.

I like the tools Messier brings to a team that already has Gretzky, more than those Jagr brings.

But if it was just Jagr vs Messier, I pick Jagr very easily. Jagr is one of the most talented players of all time. And one of the only players in history who can probably top Messier in terms of career longevity.
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Jagr is probably a more talented offensive player than Messier but that's it. In every other facet on the game messier is substantially better and the offensive gap isn't enough to make up for it. Messier > Jagr.
 

shazariahl

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Apr 7, 2009
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Messier is the worst of the bunch offensively, but brings plenty of everything else. I'll take the greatest player of all time combined with Messier's win at all costs play, especially in the post season.
 

psycat

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Oct 25, 2016
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jj cale said:
crazy with some people thinking messier is the weak link here and overrated.

He is the guy who pushes that duo over the top in a head to head matchup with Mario and Jagr. Messier was a far tougher match playoff player then Jagr ever was and would do what was ncessary to win this match up.

Underrated player on these boards. one of the best centers and players I ever saw and a real winner.
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He is the weak link in this scenario though. Simply because Jagr > Messier by a healthy margin and neither is close to Gretz/Lemieux obviously.

Still picking Gretz+Mess though.
 

bambamcam4ever

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Feb 16, 2012
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Cursed Lemon said:
Messier > Jagr in the playoffs decidedly, so there's that.
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Messier's playoff performance is massively overrated. There was a post on the history board not long ago showing that he was regularly outscored by lesser teammates in the postseason. Great example of a great player who played in the perfect situation for 15+ years.
 
Cursed Lemon

Cursed Lemon

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bambamcam4ever said:
Messier's playoff performance is massively overrated. There was a post on the history board not long ago showing that he was regularly outscored by lesser teammates in the postseason.
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1983 - Gretzky, Kurri
1984 - Gretzky, Kurri
1985 - Gretzky, Kurri, Coffey, Anderson
1987 - Gretzky
1988 - Gretzky
1990 - Tied for 1st with Simpson
1994 - Leetch

Gretzky? No.

Kurri and Coffey? Roughly equal but you can take that to the poll board.

Anderson, Simpson, and Leetch? The absolute best playoff performances of each player.

And even then, an overrated Messier is still better than Jagr in the playoffs.
 
jj cale

jj cale

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psycat said:
He is the weak link in this scenario though. Simply because Jagr > Messier by a healthy margin and neither is close to Gretz/Lemieux obviously.

Still picking Gretz+Mess though.
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He is most certainly not the weak link in this scenario at all.

Man is that guy criminally underrated around here, I think some of it is just never having watched him through his career and some of is is just that they hated the guys guts.

He was a freakin bad ass with skill and will who meant business come must win time.

And no it is not jagr> Messier. Jagr was a better offensive talent(and Mess was no slouch there) and that is it.But there is a lot more to the game then that which i am going to assume you know.

Watched them both play through their careers.

It's actually mess and what he brings to the table that wins it here IMO. I mean, in a high stakes must win scenario playoff battle for the cup with all these guys in their prime Mess would eat Jagr alive.

He might not make it through the series with mess after his ass.

Lemieux-Forsberg against Messier-Gretzky in a playoff series would be the matchup that would be the real barnburner for me, now we are talking!! I wish someone would do a poll on that scenario.
 
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The Winter Soldier

The Winter Soldier

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psycat said:
He is the weak link in this scenario though. Simply because Jagr > Messier by a healthy margin and neither is close to Gretz/Lemieux obviously.

Still picking Gretz+Mess though.
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If you saw Messier play in his prime, and even towards the end when he led the Rangers to their only cup in decades. Messier's 6th cup, 4 with 99 on Edmonton, 1 without 99 in Edmonton, and one in NY a totally different team where he was a key player for all of those teams. I don't think you would say this. By throwing in Jagr by a healthy margin. I know you didn't then. Because Jagr was not better than Messier when you take all the sum of the parts of a player. Messier was.
 
Felidae

Felidae

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Ok, so im bored and decided to compare Jaromir Jagr and Mark Messier's playoff stats. I was going to compare their scoring placements overall, but considering Messier advanced further to the playoffs than Jagr ever did, I think it'd be more accurate to compare their team scoring finishes. In that way, I don't punish either of them for how far their teams did or didn't advance throughout the playoffs.

Let's see what we find..



Jaromir Jagr.

1990-91, 8th in scoring, 31 points behind 1st (Lemieux), 21 points behind 2nd

1991-92, 4th in scoring, 10 points behind 1st (Lemieux), 4 points behind 2nd

1992-93. 6th in scoring, 9 points behind 1st (Lemieux), 7 points behind 2nd

1993-84, 2nd in scoring, 1 point behind Lemieux, 1 point above 3rd

1994-95, 2nd in scoring, 4 points behind Francis, tied with 3rd

1995-96, 2nd in scoring, 4 points behind Lemieux, 3 points above 3rd.

1996-97, 1st in scoring, 2 points ahead 2nd

1997-98, 1st in scoring, 3 points ahead 2nd

1998-99, 2nd in scoring, 3 points behind 1st

1999-00, 1st in scoring, 4 points ahead 2nd

2000-00, 3rd in scoring, 5 points behind 1st

2002-03, 1st in scoring, 1 point ahead 2nd

2005-06, 6th in scoring, a point behind 1st

2006-07. 2nd in scoring, 2 points behind 1st

2007-08. 1st in scoring, 4 points ahead 2nd.

2011-12, 6th in scoring, 9 points behind 1st

2012-13, 7th in scoring, 16 points behind 1st

2015-16, 9th in scoring, 7 points behind 1st


1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3 (two 2nd point finishes behind Lemieux)



Mark Messier

1979-80, 2nd in scoring, tied with Gretzky

1980-81, 6th in scoring, 14 points behind 1st (Gretzky)

1981- 82, 8th in scoring, 9 points behind 1st (Gretzky)

1982-83, 3rd in scoring, 17 points behind Gretzky, 2 points behind 2nd

1983-84, 3rd in scoring, 9 points behind Gretzky, 2 behind 2nd

1984-85, 5th in scoring, 22 points behind Gretzky, 12 points behind 2nd

1985-86, 4th in scoring, 9 points behind Gretzky, 2 points behind 2nd

1986-87, 2nd in scoring, 6 points behind Gretzky, 1 point ahead of 3rd.

1987-88, 2nd in scoring, 9 points behind Gretzky, 3 points ahead of 3rd

1988-89, 1st in scoring, 4 points ahead 2nd

1989-90, 2nd in scoring, tied with 1st,

1990-91, 3rd in scoring, 5 points behind 1st

1991-92, 3rd in scoring, 2 points behind 1st

1993-94, 2nd in scoring, 4 points behind 1st

1994-95, 2nd in scoring, 1 point behind 1st

1995-96, 1st in scoring, 2 points ahead 2nd

1996-97, 3rd in scoring, 8 points behind 1st.


1, 1, ,2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, ( two 2nd point finishes behind Gretzky)



Jagr was by no means an underwhelming playoff performer, it seems like he did what he could with what he had.

IMO They're certainly closer comparing playoffs as opposed to regular season, and it's difficult not to give Messier the edge when he achieved what he did with more games played and the intangible factor. But either way I think it's much closer than some think regarding their playoffs.
 
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