Friedman: Leafs trying to keep Gardiner?

[The Podium]

We will agree to disagree.

But I am glad you conceded that a GM can sign a better D man in De Haan for lesser money and without giving up assets as a UFA for a overpaid Journey man D man like Zaitsev. And that was my point.

BTW you actually think Zaitsev is better than Ian Cole for the Avs at 4.25 x 3 years? Really. You know he is playing on the 2nd pairing with Barrie on a very good Avs team. Really now....

Zaitsev is playing on the 2nd pairing on a very good Toronto team

Cole is producing marginally better offensively, has a 54% dZS% vs. Zaitsevs 59.8%, similar CF% despite easier usage, GA/60 of 2.9 vs. Zaitsevs 2.7

So yes, they are producing similar but Zaitsev is playing heavier defensive minutes. I dont know what is so hard to comprehend.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Zaitsev is playing on the 2nd pairing on a very good Toronto team

Cole is producing marginally better offensively, has a 54% dZS% vs. Zaitsevs 59.8%, similar CF% despite easier usage, GA/60 of 2.9 vs. Zaitsevs 2.7

So yes, they are producing similar but Zaitsev is playing heavier defensive minutes. I dont know what is so hard to comprehend.

Cole is a proven D man on a stanley cup winning team. Zaitsev is not. Infact Zaitsev has been exposed in the playoffs regularly. Yet he is somehow better? Cole is also signed to less money and term, while being the better and more proven D man despite the small samples you cite. Why have you not factored this in? Not hard to comprehend at all to most.

 

[TheDoldrums]

Zaitsev is not a top 2 pairing D man on a contender. He has little offensive ability and is average defensively. Not worth 4.5M locked into a long term deal. He has little trade value. If he did have value, his name would not come up as one the Leafs are willing to let go.

The broken clock has stumbled onto a good point here. The contract Lou gave Zaitsev is problematic and I'm sure Dubas is trying to find a sucker so he can move it. Will be very tough though.

 

[The Podium]

Cole is a proven D man on a stanley cup winning team. Zaitsev is not. Infact Zaitsev has been exposed in the playoffs regularly. Yet he is somehow better? Cole is also signed to less money and term, while being the better and more proven D man despite the small samples you cite. Why have you not factored this in? Not hard to comprehend at all to most.

Hainsey is a proven D man on a stanley cup winning team? Does that mean he is good?

Cole is also older than Zaitsev and not a RHD.

We can argue Cole vs. Zaitsev all day, but all I said is Zaitsev is performing admirably for his pay and as a RHD (which is rare) will have value around the league if Toronto wishes to explore that option.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

The broken clock has stumbled onto a good point here. The contract Lou gave Zaitsev is problematic and I'm sure Dubas is trying to find a sucker so he can move it. Will be very tough though.

This quote was probably for @The Podium

I will correct your inaccurate misquote.

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

Good luck keeping Gardiner he'll probably command at least 7 x 6 on the open market. Without moving bodies can't see the Leafs retaining him in the least.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Hainsey is a proven D man on a stanley cup winning team? Does that mean he is good?

Cole is also older than Zaitsev and not a RHD.

We can argue Cole vs. Zaitsev all day, but all I said is Zaitsev is performing admirably for his pay and as a RHD (which is rare) will have value around the league if Toronto wishes to explore that option.

Yeah Cole is 29, Zaitsev is 27. You got me there. But his contract ends when he is 31. Zaitsev's when he is 32 and at .25M more for a much less proven player, especially in the playoffs.

You are wasting your time trying to convince me what most people know. Zaitsev has little trade value when a Cole or De Haan can be signed for often less and for free in the summer. You are not pulling the wool over people here.

 

[TheDoldrums]

This quote was probably for @The Podium

I will correct your inaccurate misquote.

I quoted the correct post as intended.

 

[The Podium]

Yeah Cole is 29, Zaitsev is 27. You got me there. But his contract ends when he is 31. Zaitsev's when he is 32 and at .25M more as a less dependable player, especially in the playoffs.

You are wasting your time trying to convince me what most people know. Zaitsev has little trade value when a Cole or De Haan can be signed for often less and for free in the summer.

Doesnt matter how much trade value he has, the original post was an argument against the "how much are you going to sweeten the pot for a GM to take that contract off your hands". Yes, Zaitsev isnt worth a 1st+, but I can see him returning a mid round pick with no salary coming back which is what Toronto would need to do if they wanted to explore ways of saving on the cap.

Your UFA comparables are proof of market value and a teams willingness to pay for what Zaitsev brings.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

I quoted the correct post as intended.

A broken clock like you agreed with me then. Score another point.

 

[Holymakinaw]

Good luck keeping Gardiner he'll probably command at least 7 x 6 on the open market. Without moving bodies can't see the Leafs retaining him in the least.

Oh for sure Gardiner is gone. There is ZERO chance the Leafs will be able to afford him.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Doesnt matter how much trade value he has, the original post was an argument against the "how much are you going to sweeten the pot for a GM to take that contract off your hands". Yes, Zaitsev isnt worth a 1st+, but I can see him returning a mid round pick with no salary coming back which is what Toronto would need to do if they wanted to explore ways of saving on the cap.

Your UFA comparables are proof of market value and a teams willingness to pay for what Zaitsev brings.

Trade value can also be a negative value.

Again, keep dodging and weaving this question all day if you like. But how does Zaitsev have a positive trade value when a GM can sign a better D man to a shorter term at a similar cap hit or better in the summer?

As I said, GM's know this, they know the Leafs cap crunch coming up. You think they are in the charity business of doing team's favours? In this case making room to re-sign Gardiner. Which is not likely doing the math unless Dubus finds any takers. I find this hard to see unless he sweetens the pot as McPhee did in the expansion draft of acquiring picks for Zaitsev type of contracts.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

Oh sorry about that, I must have completely misread your post.

No worries mate.

 

[The Podium]

Trade value can also be a negative value.

Again, keep dodging and weaving this question all day if you like. But how does Zaitsev have a positive trade value when a GM can sign a better D man to a shorter term at a similar cap hit or better in the summer?

As I said, GM's know this, they know the Leafs cap crunch coming up. You think they are in the charity business of doing team's favours? In this case making room to re-sign Gardiner. Which is not likely doing the math unless Dubus finds any takers. I find this hard to see unless he sweetens the pot as McPhee did in the expansion draft of acquiring picks for Zaitsev type of contracts.

Youre the one dodging, so far youve pretty much agreed with me on all fronts and I have agreed with you.

Yes, there are D available in the FA markets of similar value to Zaitsev.

No those D are not the same age and are (for the most part) not RHD.

Yes Zaitsev is paid at market value according to your comparables.

No Zaitsev's contract wont be considered a 7 year deal since there will only be 5 years left

No Zaitsev's deal doesnt hold substantial value.

Yes, a team may throw a mid pick to get a D locked up at market value that is RH vs. sign a FA.

 

[chethejet]

Pens winning the cup in 2107 with a Ok defense sans Letang was an anomaly. Leafs will not win a cup with the D as presently constructed. Now if you have a world class goalie than maybe. But I am not sold on the leafs goalie here as a SC shut down goalie. No question the forwards can cover for some back end weakness but you never know in the playoffs. Leafs will need to trade a forward contract to add a top D man.

 

[alg363636]

This means they are going to ask him to take a huge pay cut in exchange for a NMC and 8 years.

He will (probably) say no and he will walk.

 

[Kamiccolo]

Good luck keeping Gardiner he'll probably command at least 7 x 6 on the open market. Without moving bodies can't see the Leafs retaining him in the least.

I thought he was terrible though? Why would any GM give him 7? The way people talk on here, 4M max is his worth. Leafs will be fine.

 

[Kamiccolo]

Pens winning the cup in 2107 with a Ok defense sans Letang was an anomaly. Leafs will not win a cup with the D as presently constructed. Now if you have a world class goalie than maybe. But I am not sold on the leafs goalie here as a SC shut down goalie. No question the forwards can cover for some back end weakness but you never know in the playoffs. Leafs will need to trade a forward contract to add a top D man.

No one can explain how the Leafs goalies AND defense sucks yet they are never near the bottom of the league in GA.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Youre the one dodging, so far youve pretty much agreed with me on all fronts and I have agreed with you.

Yes, there are D available in the FA markets of similar value to Zaitsev.

No those D are not the same age and are (for the most part) not RHD.

Yes Zaitsev is paid at market value according to your comparables.

No Zaitsev's contract wont be considered a 7 year deal since there will only be 5 years left

No Zaitsev's deal doesnt hold substantial value.

Yes, a team may throw a mid pick to get a D locked up at market value that is RH vs. sign a FA.

Not sure what you are going on about now. You are the one to claim Zaitsev had positive value as a trade prospect so the Leafs could make room to sign Gardiner.

I don't agree with this fantasy thinking of yours that teams will be knocking down on Dubas' door to acquire him.

Not when GM's can sign better D men at better contracts in the summer for free and they know the Leafs desperately would like to increase their cap space with so many more players to be signed.

It isn't that hard to understand is it?

 

[Znith]

There's just no way to keep Nylander, Gardiner, Kapanen and Johnsson

If you keep Gardiner, Kapanen+Johnsson won't fit into the salary structure

It's possible to keep Gardiner if he takes term but less AAV, but it will mean Kapanen ($4m) and Johnsson ($2m) will have to go.
Or, Nylander will have to go, but apparently he has a promise from Dubas not to be traded.

I'd rather see Dermott get that 2nd pairing time on an ELC tbh, and keep Kapanen and Johnsson

Butttt....aslo Kappy and Johnsson could fetch pretty good returns in trades...ah I dunno

 

[Jozay]

Leafs would probably have to give him 8 years 40 million. Would not be worth it imo.

 

[ryno23]

Good luck keeping Gardiner he'll probably command at least 7 x 6 on the open market. Without moving bodies can't see the Leafs retaining him in the least.

He probably could command that. He could also say " Hey If I take a bit less I can stay here in Toronto with a very good team and have a chance at a cup" He can take the money and go play for a mediocre team or rebuilding losing team.

Yes players can command certain dollars but they don't always go chasing the money ask Tavares.

 

[HABSFTW]

I think when TO signed Nylander, and if no cap dump trades can be make, they made their choice between him and Gardiner.

 

[sheed36]

He probably could command that. He could also say " Hey If I take a bit less I can stay here in Toronto with a very good team and have a chance at a cup" He can take the money and go play for a mediocre team or rebuilding losing team.

Yes players can command certain dollars but they don't always go chasing the money ask Tavares.

I guess it would depend on how much less per year that would be for him to stay a Leaf. Gardiner likely would love to remain a Leaf and the Leafs would love to have him back but this is also likely his last chance to cash in with him being a UFA in his prime.

If I were Gardiner I'd at least wait until UFA to see how other teams value him and see what type of money and term are out there from other teams first and then decide if what the Leafs can offer is acceptable.

For sure players want to win and be on good teams but they also want to be paid fair value (which is around 6m for Gardiner this summer IMO) and I'm not sure the Leafs can offer him that right now but we'll see.

 

[Syckle78]

I thought he was terrible though? Why would any GM give him 7? The way people talk on here, 4M max is his worth. Leafs will be fine.

Because gms in free agency are dumb as hell. Shitty players makes bank all the time see lucic Milan or Clarkson, David. Nice try,though.