Leafs to treat player progression similar to MLB.

[Mess]

I guess 50 contracts limits putting any effort into long term development also. Certainly a variable in choosing skill over size again.

50 pro contracts is the reason that this idea id flawed.

If you factor 25 players for your NHL team and ~20 for you AHL then mathematically it only leaves 5-6 of your weakest prospects under contract to head to the ECHL.

5 to 6 players on a team with 15-20 others brought in by the Solar Bears that have no connection to the Leafs all competing for TOI/g in the ECHL without Leafs having much if any say except hope their guys get quality ice time against players often much older and more experienced in Orlando.

What would make this unique if the Leafs demoted a top 10 prospect like say Freddy Gauthier to the ECHL while leaving lower ranked prospects like Carter Verhaeghe instead with the Marlies to practice with the team. Hard to imagine the team you have complete control over where Dubas is the GM of the Marlies that you would believe this was better for your top prospects development. When injuries hit you would be playing lesser players in the AHL than the ones you have in the ECHL.

I think this strategy works best with goalies because there is only 1 net and limited roster spots. So having a goalie prospect in CHL and one perhaps in Euro and then 1 in the ECHL and 2 X on the Marlies is how you would space out development of the system.

 

[IBeL34f]

Players on AHL contracts can play in the AHL or ECHL. They'll either play in Orlando themselves, or allow some of our 50 pro contracts to move down.

The contract limit should not be an issue.

And when injuries hit, you'll see players recalled from the ECHL to step in for the Marlies.

I've used Gauthier as an example myself, but really, the truth of the matter is that coaches absolutely love utilizing this kid. I have a hard time seeing him not playing a fairly large role with the Marlies right off the bat, though I won't be disappointed if they decide he can gain more confidence in his offensive game with Orlando and send him there for part of the season.

 

[Mess]

I wonder if any of Leafs recent "free wallet" undrafted UFA signings will end up in Orlando as in Nikita Soshnikov, Zach Hyman or Casey Bailey?

I'm curious if part of their condition to signing with Toronto was they get an opportunity to make the Leafs and if not guaranteed to play in the AHL at worst.

Do Leafs have some obligation here, and what would be future consequences if undrafted players picking Toronto knowing they could be ECHL bound?.

 

[IBeL34f]

I wonder if any of Leafs recent "free wallet" undrafted UFA signings will end up in Orlando as in Nikita Soshnikov, Zach Hyman or Casey Bailey?

I'm curious if part of their condition to signing with Toronto was they get an opportunity to make the Leafs and if not guaranteed to play in the AHL at worst.

Do Leafs have some obligation here, and what would be future consequences if undrafted players picking Toronto knowing they could be ECHL bound?.

I've never been too too concerned about scorning players. A lot of people used to say that signing a player long-term and trading them a year or two later would come back to haunt an organization, and yet I've never seen any real evidence of that. Most players are mature enough to know that you have to earn the time and opportunities you receive, and I don't think previous, unrelated circumstances would keep players from signing with a team that demoted guys who didn't earn that time.

Having said that, being good, honest people is a big part of what being a Leaf means to this management team, which I really do love. If there was any sort of agreement (which seems a little unlikely to me, though not impossible), you never know. These guys put hard work and effort above all else. Those who display that will be rewarded, and those who don't will see their opportunities slipping away.

A guy like Soshnikov would most likely just go back to the KHL if he was unhappy with the situation, but I don't know what we'd see with Hyman or Bailey. My guess is that if they put up too much of a stink, especially if management doesn't believe they've put in th work necessary to earn their AHL/NHL spot, they don't have the character that we were hoping for anyway. You could see those guys benched, or perhaps traded out to a team with less minor-league depth.

An interesting discussion point, nonetheless.

 

[egd27]

That's a fair point, and I can say comfortably that the Marlies team won't be run that way. But there are only so many minutes to go around, and my point with a guy like Gauthier is that if his minutes get bumped up just by playing the PK and being put out on defensive draws, that goes against what management has said about pigeonholing players based on early projections.

As for your second point, it doesn't need to be this major thing right off the bat. It's just about the intention, and the beginning of the shift. You're right, we probably have just the right amount of young prospects to comfortably fill out the Marlies lineup right now that it might not seem like anything earth-shattering. But we've also brought a bunch of guys in on AHL contracts who will have to play somewhere, guys who project to take a little longer to develop, or who just need some opportunities, which this affords for them. If they can get lots of ice-time in the ECHL, or take a 4th-line AHL spot in order to allow some higher-profile guys to go down to Orlando to get major minutes, that's a good thing. Plus, we've got at least 11 draft picks already for 2016, with who knows how many more coming at the trade deadline, or for 2017. This is again a long-term plan that will take time to bear fruit. But when we are almost literally overflowing with prospects, people will be happy that we have somewhere for them to play.

To have any skepticism at all towards a move like this just seems incredibly strange, since there is literally zero downside, zero risk.

No scepticism about the plan, my point was, as you stated, it's a longer term initiative and perhaps those that believe the Marlies are so stacked currently are getting ahead of themselves.

 

[Leafs87]

I guess it could be a confidence building league

 

[Drew75]

50 pro contracts is the reason that this idea id flawed.

If you factor 25 players for your NHL team and ~20 for you AHL then mathematically it only leaves 5-6 of your weakest prospects under contract to head to the ECHL.

5 to 6 players on a team with 15-20 others brought in by the Solar Bears that have no connection to the Leafs all competing for TOI/g in the ECHL without Leafs having much if any say except hope their guys get quality ice time against players often much older and more experienced in Orlando.

What would make this unique if the Leafs demoted a top 10 prospect like say Freddy Gauthier to the ECHL while leaving lower ranked prospects like Carter Verhaeghe instead with the Marlies to practice with the team. Hard to imagine the team you have complete control over where Dubas is the GM of the Marlies that you would believe this was better for your top prospects development. When injuries hit you would be playing lesser players in the AHL than the ones you have in the ECHL.

I think this strategy works best with goalies because there is only 1 net and limited roster spots. So having a goalie prospect in CHL and one perhaps in Euro and then 1 in the ECHL and 2 X on the Marlies is how you would space out development of the system.

From what we've seen though - it looks like the Leafs are changing the thinking on this.

The key difference is that you are referring to the traditional approach of sending your 5 weakest prospects to the ECHL - whereas I believe the Leafs will not approach it that way.

• Guys who are prime time ready for AHL duty like the guys who played there last year (Nylander, Brown, Kapanen, Leipsic, etc) will be with the Marlies.
• The rest of the roster will be made up of AHL contracts - but with the change that instead of signing AHL vets, they are signing young guys who are trying to earn a full pro contract (a one year audition - like they did with Froese last year).
• Graduation players like Verhaeghe, Gauthier and Valiev will be assessed in camp - if they can TAKE a spot from one of the established Marlies, it's theirs. If not, they will start with Orlando.
• The big change - the Leafs now apparently have an expanded working relationship (and more control) over the Solar Bears. I believe they influenced the coaching decision there, the coach there will be working with Babs and Keefe, and if I'm not mistaken, the Orlando coach is AT the prospect camp this week.

If Verheaghe or Gauthier (although, I think the Goat will EARN a job with the Marlies) end up in Orlando, they will be playing top minutes and under the control of the Leafs organization. Book it.

 

[IBeL34f]

I guess it could be a confidence building league

Confidence building and ice-time, basically. If eventually this model becomes more of a trend, then you see the competitiveness and quality of the league rise, and then it becomes something more. But for now, yeah, just guarantee that everyone is playing hockey.

 

[IBeL34f]

From what we've seen though - it looks like the Leafs are changing the thinking on this.

The key difference is that you are referring to the traditional approach of sending your 5 weakest prospects to the ECHL - whereas I believe the Leafs will not approach it that way.

• Guys who are prime time ready for AHL duty like the guys who played there last year (Nylander, Brown, Kapanen, Leipsic, etc) will be with the Marlies.
• The rest of the roster will be made up of AHL contracts - but with the change that instead of signing AHL vets, they are signing young guys who are trying to earn a full pro contract (a one year audition - like they did with Froese last year).
• Graduation players like Verhaeghe, Gauthier and Valiev will be assessed in camp - if they can TAKE a spot from one of the established Marlies, it's theirs. If not, they will start with Orlando.
• The big change - the Leafs now apparently have an expanded working relationship (and more control) over the Solar Bears. I believe they influenced the coaching decision there, the coach there will be working with Babs and Keefe, and if I'm not mistaken, the Orlando coach is AT the prospect camp this week.

If Verheaghe or Gauthier (although, I think the Goat will EARN a job with the Marlies) end up in Orlando, they will be playing top minutes and under the control of the Leafs organization. Book it.

The bolded point there is awesome, I wasn't aware of that. I figured we had some control, but that's fantastic to hear, and makes this an even more viable opportunity.

 

[Mess]

I guess it could be a confidence building league

That is essentially what it is..

Your younger players often don't get as much playing time and sometimes even are healthy scratches from long periods of the time.

So an AHL team loans them to the ECHL for a 5-10 game stint to allow them to get some playing time, confidence and even conditioning and timing issues and then return to the Marlies.

Last year Matt Finn was a perfect example.. He was overwhelmed by the AHL and its speed turning pro from his junior days. So after being a healthy scratch as a Marlie the Leafs sent him for 8 game stint to Orlando to see if he could gain confidence and his game and then recalled him.

However while this is used by an AHL team as a resource, one can see how this would be disruptive for a ECHL team continuity when random players are loaned to the team at various times and then recalled. Your ECHL team dressing different rosters and not having much time to integrated a new player into a new system and then he is gone again.

 

[diceman934]

Having a lot of Vets in the AHL is counter to development. You want your players playing in the best development League that they can. Good drafting will see your AHL team be very competitive without the need to fill it with Career AHL players who are never going to be part of the Leafs. Players need ice time to develop and wasting years of development while playing behind an Old Vet is not a great plan.

There are rules that prevent an NHL team from loading its AHL roster with Vets....If I recall correctly at least 13 players must be development players who have played less then around 250 games in the AHL/NHL and I belief the European elite leagues as well. (This is from memory and may not be current or 100% correct.)

I still see the ECHL as a league for players who are not good enough for the AHL.

For the status quo to change the NHL would need to change the 50 contract limit...so that NHL teams would have the need for more roster spots for their players.

Right now a player on a AHL contract is a free agent once their contract expires, why would we have more then a few players on a AHL contract and spend time developing them when they could walk away after their contract expires?

 

[Drew75]

That is essentially what it is..

Your younger players often don't get as much playing time and sometimes even are healthy scratches from long periods of the time.

So an AHL team loans them to the ECHL for a 5-10 game stint to allow them to get some playing time, confidence and even conditioning and timing issues and then return to the Marlies.

Last year Matt Finn was a perfect example.. He was overwhelmed by the AHL and its speed turning pro from his junior days. So after being a healthy scratch as a Marlie the Leafs sent him for 8 game stint to Orlando to see if he could gain confidence and his game and then recalled him.

However while this is used by an AHL team as a resource, one can see how this would be disruptive for a ECHL team continuity when random players are loaned to the team at various times and then recalled. Your ECHL team dressing different rosters and not having much time to integrated a new player into a new system and then he is gone again.

This is where the change comes in, and I for one think it's a great change.

If the same situation that Finn went through last happens this year to say (only as an example) Valiev - now, rather than an 8 game stint and riding pine with the Marlies, it'll be 'go to Orlando, and when you're ready to play a regular role with the Marlies, you'll come back for good". Valiev has a great year with Orlando, comes back bigger, stronger, more confident, and further developed - ready to step up to the Marlies and have an impact.

See, they realize having a D or Forward playing top minutes for Orlando in all situation is way better for their development than riding pine with the Marlies. Don't get me wrong, there is benefit for a kid to practice up a few levels, but that is for situations like Valiev after his season last year - practicing with the Marlies, seeing what the next level is like so he knows how hard to prepare in the summer.

The AHL is a BIG step up from Junior. All they are doing here is adding a smaller step in between (a 'booster seat ) so the kids not quite ready to take the big step can continue their development with a smaller, more comfortable step.

 

[Drew75]

Having a lot of Vets in the AHL is counter to development. You want your players playing in the best development League that they can. Good drafting will see your AHL team be very competitive without the need to fill it with Career AHL players who are never going to be part of the Leafs. Players need ice time to develop and wasting years of development while playing behind an Old Vet is not a great plan.

There are rules that prevent an NHL team from loading its AHL roster with Vets....If I recall correctly at least 13 players must be development players who have played less then around 250 games in the AHL/NHL and I belief the European elite leagues as well. (This is from memory and may not be current or 100% correct.)

I still see the ECHL as a league for players who are not good enough for the AHL.

For the status quo to change the NHL would need to change the 50 contract limit...so that NHL teams would have the need for more roster spots for their players.

Right now a player on a AHL contract is a free agent once their contract expires, why would we have more then a few players on a AHL contract and spend time developing them when they could walk away after their contract expires?

This is what people aren't seeing ... they ARE NOT signing AHL vets - other than 27 year old Andrew Campbell - all the guys they signed are 21 - 24 year old late bloomers who are going on a one year try-out without counting against the contract limit.

If they don't make the Marlies right away, they can play in Orlando - but it's a ZERO risk, high reward approach that adds depth to the organization as a whole. It also acts to push our drafted prospects to be better rather than guaranteeing them spots with the Marlies if they are not totally ready to take that step.

 

[Drew75]

The bolded point there is awesome, I wasn't aware of that. I figured we had some control, but that's fantastic to hear, and makes this an even more viable opportunity.

I can't find it right now - but there was a great article (I think on SportsNet mobile) about the approach for the Leafs prospect camp. They broke the kids into a bunch of small groups, rotating and working on specific skills - and they mentioned that Anthony Noreen (the new Solar Bears coach) was running one of the groups.

 

[diceman934]

This is what people aren't seeing ... they ARE NOT signing AHL vets - other than 27 year old Andrew Campbell - all the guys they signed are 21 - 24 year old late bloomers who are going on a one year try-out without counting against the contract limit.

If they don't make the Marlies right away, they can play in Orlando - but it's a ZERO risk, high reward approach that adds depth to the organization as a whole. It also acts to push our drafted prospects to be better rather than guaranteeing them spots with the Marlies if they are not totally ready to take that step.

Like I said above.....you do not own the players NHL rights you sign to an AHL contract, they are free to sign with any NHL team, so developing a lot of these types of players is a risk as you are putting in time and money to develop a player that is not a controllable asset, and possible taking away development time of an asset that you do control.

 

[Daisy Jane]

hmm.

So basically what they are doing if I can get this right.

the Leafs have 50 contracts. but that is. the Leafs" so big club + prospects and rights.
but the Marlies can have x amount of contracts, correct? I like Drew's analogy, they are going to use the ECHL as a booster-seat. some players can handle the jump. others can't (and instead of putting them in Europe where they can't control the development - put them in the ECHL).. and as others pointed out if it catches on it can change how the ECHL is used

I truly never understand people who keep going "why are you trying to reinvent the wheel.". I do believe it was Mr. Jobs who coined the phrase "think different." ? this could not work. but it also COULD work. i truthfully don't see the problem of at least trying, and seeing what it would do. what's the worst that could happen? it's not like they are saying they are going to stick Marner down there and we'll see him when he's 26. It sounds like to me it's those kids who would struggle to make the Marlies - but the leafs want to make sure they develop the way they want/need them to.

 

[Grant]

Having a lot of Vets in the AHL is counter to development. You want your players playing in the best development League that they can. Good drafting will see your AHL team be very competitive without the need to fill it with Career AHL players who are never going to be part of the Leafs. Players need ice time to develop and wasting years of development while playing behind an Old Vet is not a great plan.

There are rules that prevent an NHL team from loading its AHL roster with Vets....If I recall correctly at least 13 players must be development players who have played less then around 250 games in the AHL/NHL and I belief the European elite leagues as well. (This is from memory and may not be current or 100% correct.)

I still see the ECHL as a league for players who are not good enough for the AHL.

For the status quo to change the NHL would need to change the 50 contract limit...so that NHL teams would have the need for more roster spots for their players.

Right now a player on a AHL contract is a free agent once their contract expires, why would we have more then a few players on a AHL contract and spend time developing them when they could walk away after their contract expires?

http://www.uticacomets.com/constructing-an-ahl-roster/

The most important rule that factors in to creating an AHL roster is the veteran rule. First, lets define what a veteran is because there are two classifications: Veterans (V) and Veteran Exempts (VE). A Veteran Exempt is any player that has played 261-320 professional games in the AHL, NHL or any of the elite leagues in Europe (note that ECHL games do not count against this number). A Veteran is any player that has played in 321 or more professional games in those same leagues.

Each player’s veteran number is calculated once before the season begins. So if a player finished the 2013-14 season with 260 games played he will not be a VE at all during the 2014-15 season.

Technically there is no limit on how many Veterans or Veteran Exempts a team can carry on their roster. But there are restrictions to how many of them can dress in each game. The limit of combined Veterans and VE’s that can dress in each game is six. At least one of those skaters HAS to be a VE. So you cannot dress six veterans in a game, but you can dress six VE’s in a game.

Veteran rules have no effect on goaltenders.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

50 pro contracts is the reason that this idea id flawed.

If you factor 25 players for your NHL team and ~20 for you AHL then mathematically it only leaves 5-6 of your weakest prospects under contract to head to the ECHL.

5 to 6 players on a team with 15-20 others brought in by the Solar Bears that have no connection to the Leafs all competing for TOI/g in the ECHL without Leafs having much if any say except hope their guys get quality ice time against players often much older and more experienced in Orlando.

What would make this unique if the Leafs demoted a top 10 prospect like say Freddy Gauthier to the ECHL while leaving lower ranked prospects like Carter Verhaeghe instead with the Marlies to practice with the team. Hard to imagine the team you have complete control over where Dubas is the GM of the Marlies that you would believe this was better for your top prospects development. When injuries hit you would be playing lesser players in the AHL than the ones you have in the ECHL.

I think this strategy works best with goalies because there is only 1 net and limited roster spots. So having a goalie prospect in CHL and one perhaps in Euro and then 1 in the ECHL and 2 X on the Marlies is how you would space out development of the system.

If the five or six players sent to the echl are getting the top ice time its beneficial. Double sided sword depending on the depth of your prospects. A prospect playing 4th line marlies minures could possibly get first line echl minutes. Builds skill, confidence and composure. Thats a positive developmental situation. Call ups would then be in a better frame of mind.

I think it could work.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

From what we've seen though - it looks like the Leafs are changing the thinking on this.

The key difference is that you are referring to the traditional approach of sending your 5 weakest prospects to the ECHL - whereas I believe the Leafs will not approach it that way.

• Guys who are prime time ready for AHL duty like the guys who played there last year (Nylander, Brown, Kapanen, Leipsic, etc) will be with the Marlies.
• The rest of the roster will be made up of AHL contracts - but with the change that instead of signing AHL vets, they are signing young guys who are trying to earn a full pro contract (a one year audition - like they did with Froese last year).
• Graduation players like Verhaeghe, Gauthier and Valiev will be assessed in camp - if they can TAKE a spot from one of the established Marlies, it's theirs. If not, they will start with Orlando.
• The big change - the Leafs now apparently have an expanded working relationship (and more control) over the Solar Bears. I believe they influenced the coaching decision there, the coach there will be working with Babs and Keefe, and if I'm not mistaken, the Orlando coach is AT the prospect camp this week.

If Verheaghe or Gauthier (although, I think the Goat will EARN a job with the Marlies) end up in Orlando, they will be playing top minutes and under the control of the Leafs organization. Book it.

That all true. I agree. I thought everyone was aware of that too. I was wondering why all the dispute to the effectiveness of this structure.

 

[Drew75]

Like I said above.....you do not own the players NHL rights you sign to an AHL contract, they are free to sign with any NHL team, so developing a lot of these types of players is a risk as you are putting in time and money to develop a player that is not a controllable asset, and possible taking away development time of an asset that you do control.

These aren't necessarily going to be your top prospects - but rather improved depth. If they sign with another team, so be it - at least you got a year out of them for pushing / protecting your prospects.

However - there is a long standing tradition that when you build a relationship with these guys, provide them the opportunity they seek, 9.5 times out of 10 they will give the Leafs the 'right of first refusal' - or at least present the team with a chance to match any offers.

See Byron Froese as an example of it working.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

That is essentially what it is..

Your younger players often don't get as much playing time and sometimes even are healthy scratches from long periods of the time.

So an AHL team loans them to the ECHL for a 5-10 game stint to allow them to get some playing time, confidence and even conditioning and timing issues and then return to the Marlies.

Last year Matt Finn was a perfect example.. He was overwhelmed by the AHL and its speed turning pro from his junior days. So after being a healthy scratch as a Marlie the Leafs sent him for 8 game stint to Orlando to see if he could gain confidence and his game and then recalled him.

However while this is used by an AHL team as a resource, one can see how this would be disruptive for a ECHL team continuity when random players are loaned to the team at various times and then recalled. Your ECHL team dressing different rosters and not having much time to integrated a new player into a new system and then he is gone again.

Its no more disruptive than calling players up to the leafs from the marlies is it. Developmental leagues are consistently disrupted as part of the everyday operation.