Leafs to treat player progression similar to MLB.

[Ho Borvat]

Vancouver has a player who is following a development curve.

Alex Grenier
Drafted 90th Overall in 2011
Played his 1st pro season in the Austrian League (4 games @ AHL)
Over to the ECHL for a season
Played the last 2 years in the AHL

Lots of people think he could earn an NHL spot next year, and Canucks management have been high on him as of late.

My concern: The ECHL is full of guys riding the bus/long shots to make the NHL. I think you would need to have a good leadership group in place with your ECHL affiliate to help groom these players into professionals, and help groom them for the AHL essentially.

 

[BertCorbeau]

Use of the ECHL effectively would mean the Leafs would have more AHL contracts (with the ability to be sent down to the ECHL) of career minor leaguers that would battle for roster spots on the Marlies but not count against the 50 contract limit.

The Leafs could leverage their financial situation by paying these career AHLers to large contracts, knowing that these guys can't be called up to the NHL they'll need compensation for it.

I think it could be effective it more and more teams got in on the idea .. It'll be tough for the Leafs to do this alone but it's a creative move to develop players

 

[wulfio*]

So now you need to convince prospects to play for $500 a week or whatever instead of making a few $100k over in Europe.

 

[Mess]

Last year Dubas sent these guys to the Orlando.

SOLAR BEARS RECEIVE SIX FROM TORONTO MARLIES

Biggs, Kessel, Knodel, Ross, Rupert, Sparks to Orlando

Orlando, FL - The Orlando Solar Bears, proud affiliate of the NHL's Toronto Maple Leafs and AHL's Toronto Marlies, announced today that F Tyler Biggs, D Blake Kessel, D Eric Knodel, F Brad Ross, F Ryan Rupert, and G Garret Sparks have been assigned to Orlando from the Toronto Marlies.

http://orlandosolarbearshockey.com/news/101214-sixfrommarlies.php

How is their development going?

Looks like Leafs have traded and/or cut most lose after 1 year of ECHL development.

Wonder which lucky 5 or 6 guys are headed there this year?

 

[Drew75]

Playing in ECHL you are not facing tougher opponents / competition and under those circumstances your progress is stalled - I am not a fan of this league

ECHL is slightly greater competition than CHL (bigger, stronger, professional players). It's better for a kid like Verhaeghe to play top 6 minutes for Orlando than ride pine for the Marlies. As he develops, he can earn his way into the Marlie roster.

 

[ACC1224]

I dislike the contract limitation of 50. It's just another way that the NHL CBA cripples the rich franchises from using their financial clout for any sort of competitive advantage. You'd think the NHLPA wouldn't care if the Toronto Maple Leafs had 10 more players under contract so I imagine it's the rest of the NHL who rake in that sweet transfer money their market didn't earn who won't even allow wealthier franchise even this modest advantage.

I don't get it either.

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

Dubas certainly knows more than I do, but I don't think any club has been fortunate enough to have so many players in the AHL (e.g., players that are now too old for CHL, and have come over from Europe) that are still projected for the NHL.

If they're looking to simply have such a volume of prospects that it does become the case, it explains a lot of the trading down they did during the draft. I don't mind favouring quantity over quality in the late 1st and beyond pick range as they tend to be so hit and miss, but would that realistically overflow CHL, Europe and AHL development capacity?

 

[Turk Broda]

Dubas certainly knows more than I do, but I don't think any club has been fortunate enough to have so many players in the AHL (e.g., players that are now too old for CHL, and have come over from Europe) that are still projected for the NHL.

If they're looking to simply have such a volume of prospects that it does become the case, it explains a lot of the trading down they did during the draft. I don't mind favouring quantity over quality in the late 1st and beyond pick range as they tend to be so hit and miss, but would that realistically overflow CHL, Europe and AHL development capacity?

Is the plan to move some players that do not make the top 6 group of forwards to the ECHL to get them top 6 minutes? Perhaps the thought is that a player's development is hindered if they aren't getting much playing time in the AHL, so its better that they play a more prominent role in the ECHL? I believe that is what a few posters have suggested, just want to clarify.

 

[Stephen]

Couldn't hurt but I am wondering if it's just being clever for the sake of being clever. Might be useful for goalies, but if a kid graduates from the CHL and doesn't have an NHL contract and is your 16th defenseman on the org. chart, signs with the Marlies and is demoted to the ECHL, I don't know if there's enough developmental time to make him talented enough to rise up through the AHL and then NHL.

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

Is the plan to move some players that do not make the top 6 group of forwards to the ECHL to get them top 6 minutes? Perhaps the thought is that a player's development is hindered if they aren't getting much playing time in the AHL, so its better that they play a more prominent role in the ECHL? I believe that is what a few posters have suggested, just want to clarify.

I'm not sure what the plan is, but I hadn't considered the split on minutes, which makes a bit more sense to me.

I still wonder though if teams don't basically already do this, but it's exceedingly rare that a player is too old for the CHL, not good enough to get good minutes in european leagues, not good enough to get good minutes in the AHL, and still be projected for the NHL. Maybe it's a matter of the ECHL development program needing to become more comparable to European programs.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

More power to them. I don't know why anyone is skeptical. It can't hurt and I'd hope the Leafs are trying to get any advantage they can get. Just because it hasn't been done before doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

 

[SprDaVE]

Could be useful for lower end prospects and depth purposes but most 20-23 year olds develop just fine in the AHL.

 

[egd27]

So one draft where pretty much everyone goes back to the CHL and we're so deep in prospects that our AHL affiliate is overflowing?

This new management team really does walk on water.

 

[IBeL34f]

Is the plan to move some players that do not make the top 6 group of forwards to the ECHL to get them top 6 minutes? Perhaps the thought is that a player's development is hindered if they aren't getting much playing time in the AHL, so its better that they play a more prominent role in the ECHL? I believe that is what a few posters have suggested, just want to clarify.

This would be the exact kind of scenario where it makes sense.

So one draft where pretty much everyone goes back to the CHL and we're so deep in prospects that our AHL affiliate is overflowing?

This new management team really does walk on water.

It goes way beyond this one draft, Dubas has been talking about this for a while.

If you look at the Center position on the Marlies alone, you've got Nylander, Froese, Gauthier, Verhaeghe, Rupert, potentially Carrick if he doesn't crack the roster... What do you want to do with graduating guys like Gauthier and Verhaeghe who have good potential, but need ice-time in order to continue developing and honing that skill to improve? They either play 3rd- or 4th-line minutes, and have limitations placed on them almost automatically in terms of their role, or they can go play in Orlando and see top-6 minutes and be given every opportunity to get ice-time, put up numbers, and gain confidence.

The skepticism and snarkiness towards this kind of thing is completely baffling, I really don't understand it. No one's saying it's a great league where all of a sudden prospects are going to blossom necessarily, but seriously, it's so much better than the alternative of not playing much, or at all. It's just a different way to look at things, a new tool for management to make sure that every player coming through their system is afforded the one thing they need to do most in order to develop: actually playing hockey.

 

[LeafGm]

Last year Dubas sent these guys to the Orlando.

Biggs, Kessel, Knodel, Ross, Rupert, Sparks to Orlando

How is their development going?

Looks like Leafs have traded and/or cut most lose after 1 year of ECHL development.

Wonder which lucky 5 or 6 guys are headed there this year?

First, if we're going to talk about the fate of Leaf prospects who were sent to the ECHL in the past, I think we can safely remove Blake Kessel from that list. He'd spent the vast majority of the previous two seasons playing for the ECHL affiliates of other organizations. So, it's pretty obvious he was only given a shot here as a sop to his brother Phil.

So, out of the remaining five legit Leaf prospects, two out of the five are still with the Leaf organization. After his ECHL stint, Ryan Rupert became a regular for the Marlies, and the organization liked him enough that they decided they'd like two of him, and signed his identical twin brother Matt.

As for Sparks---it remains to be seen what'll happen with him. He put up great numbers in the ECHL and only allowed one goal in two games of spot duty in the AHL. Presumably, he'll be fighting with Bibeau to determine who will back up Chris Gibson on the Marlies. It's also worth noting that Gibson himself played 20 games in the ECHL in 2013/14, before getting the opportunity to beat out Bibeau for the starter's job with the Marlies last year.

So, even with older, obvious busts like Ross & Biggs included in the dicussion, demotion to the ECHL has hardly proven to be a death sentence for our prospects. And the ratio of prospects who get sent to the ECHL and progress through the organization rather than out of it afterwards should improve with more young prospects like Rupert getting sent there for a first taste of pro hockey, and fewer older prospects like Ross, Biggs & Knodel getting sent there to be put out to pasture.

 

[jcfogerty]

The ECHL is not a great developmental league, at all. I wish that they would just try and improve the roster by making HOCKEY trades instead of trying to reinvent the wheel.

I think the point is for us to have a "great developmental team" based in the ECHL.
Makes sense to me. Create competition, advance up the ranks. I think it's great to see us think like this. Way to go Kyle, Walt's your uncle.

 

[thewave]

New positive spin on the ECHL. It's not a graveyard I swear it!

 

[Grant]

Between the leafs, marlies, europe leagues, ncaa, chl, I don't think the echl will ever play a significant role in developing prospects. Maybe one here or there will make the NHL and his echl development will be noted, but that happens already. I don't see what Dubas is saying as being anything new, nor do I see it as being anything revolutionary.

 

[egd27]

This would be the exact kind of scenario where it makes sense.



It goes way beyond this one draft, Dubas has been talking about this for a while.

If you look at the Center position on the Marlies alone, you've got Nylander, Froese, Gauthier, Verhaeghe, Rupert, potentially Carrick if he doesn't crack the roster... What do you want to do with graduating guys like Gauthier and Verhaeghe who have good potential, but need ice-time in order to continue developing and honing that skill to improve? They either play 3rd- or 4th-line minutes, and have limitations placed on them almost automatically in terms of their role, or they can go play in Orlando and see top-6 minutes and be given every opportunity to get ice-time, put up numbers, and gain confidence.

The skepticism and snarkiness towards this kind of thing is completely baffling, I really don't understand it. No one's saying it's a great league where all of a sudden prospects are going to blossom necessarily, but seriously, it's so much better than the alternative of not playing much, or at all. It's just a different way to look at things, a new tool for management to make sure that every player coming through their system is afforded the one thing they need to do most in order to develop: actually playing hockey.

Only if you assume your developmental league team (Marlies) has to follow the same old Top 6 - Bottom 6 mentality. Maybe our bold new management group can come up with a few out of the box solutions on development strategies.

Look, I'm not suggesting that using the Solar Bears is wrong, or the ECHL is inherently bad, I just don't believe the organization is suddenly so deep that the Marlies are overflowing with the talent some are suggesting.

 

[Mess]

New positive spin on the ECHL. It's not a graveyard I swear it!

Dubas is one of the youngest NHL execs so he believes he is "thinking outside the box here" but experienced NHL GMs have been here and tried that and know it only works in the theory.

A team only sends 5-6 players so they have little control through affiliation on how this players are treated but most importantly your best prospect you keep in the AHL under your direct development control and its the weakest players you ship out. If they make it back great, if not no big loss.

The problem is if 85% of the teams see it as a graveyard and simply an overflow for your AHL team and Leafs want to use it as new wave development tool then quality of competition will always be the biggest factor.

 

[Super Mega]

Interesting - ECHL has always been valuable for goaltenders - no reason it cant extend to forwards/D

 

[Mess]

Dubas used a couple of players on PTO last year demoting them to Orlando and then giving them AHL contracts again this year.


Findlay, 22, is returning to the Toronto Marlies after spending parts of last season with the team. The Echo Bay, Ontario native played 15 games for the Marlies while also playing 45 games with the Marlies ECHL affiliate the Orlando Solar Bears. Findlay, a 60 forward, enjoyed two seasons with the Sault Ste. Marie Greyhounds (OHL) before ending his junior career with the Peterborough Petes (OHL).

Watling, 21, also returns to Toronto after splitting time last season between the Marlies and Orlando Solar Bears. In 15 games with the Marlies, the 60 forward scored one goal and added three assists while also contributing 41 points in 45 games for the Solar Bears. The Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario native played parts of three seasons with the Guelph Storm (OHL) before finishing his career with the his home town Greyhounds.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

The ECHL is not a great developmental league, at all. I wish that they would just try and improve the roster by making HOCKEY trades instead of trying to reinvent the wheel.

Its not a great development league yet. If we have our players redeveloping there and possibly winning there i like it alot. It would bring attention to the league and is good business also for the ECHL.

Nothing wrong with that bud.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Last year Dubas sent these guys to the Orlando.



How is their development going?

Looks like Leafs have traded and/or cut most lose after 1 year of ECHL development.

Wonder which lucky 5 or 6 guys are headed there this year?

I guess 50 contracts limits putting any effort into long term development also. Certainly a variable in choosing skill over size again.

 

[IBeL34f]

Only if you assume your developmental league team (Marlies) has to follow the same old Top 6 - Bottom 6 mentality. Maybe our bold new management group can come up with a few out of the box solutions on development strategies.

Look, I'm not suggesting that using the Solar Bears is wrong, or the ECHL is inherently bad, I just don't believe the organization is suddenly so deep that the Marlies are overflowing with the talent some are suggesting.

That's a fair point, and I can say comfortably that the Marlies team won't be run that way. But there are only so many minutes to go around, and my point with a guy like Gauthier is that if his minutes get bumped up just by playing the PK and being put out on defensive draws, that goes against what management has said about pigeonholing players based on early projections.

As for your second point, it doesn't need to be this major thing right off the bat. It's just about the intention, and the beginning of the shift. You're right, we probably have just the right amount of young prospects to comfortably fill out the Marlies lineup right now that it might not seem like anything earth-shattering. But we've also brought a bunch of guys in on AHL contracts who will have to play somewhere, guys who project to take a little longer to develop, or who just need some opportunities, which this affords for them. If they can get lots of ice-time in the ECHL, or take a 4th-line AHL spot in order to allow some higher-profile guys to go down to Orlando to get major minutes, that's a good thing. Plus, we've got at least 11 draft picks already for 2016, with who knows how many more coming at the trade deadline, or for 2017. This is again a long-term plan that will take time to bear fruit. But when we are almost literally overflowing with prospects, people will be happy that we have somewhere for them to play.

To have any skepticism at all towards a move like this just seems incredibly strange, since there is literally zero downside, zero risk.