Leafs set to blow up roster

[Stats01]

Funny how so many posters that claim to favour a patient multi year rebuild, seem to lack the patience to wait a couple of weeks until the trade deadline for moves to be made.

"Hurry up and gets things going so I can start being patient"

If Franson gets hurt and we can't move him, or something happens with Winnik and Santa you're the first person I'm calling out. It's one thing to be patient it's another to risk your own players getting hurt and missing out on an opportunity to make trades. Just because the deadline is 2 weeks away doesn't mean we have to wait that long to make moves. And it also doesn't make us impatient wanting us to capitalize after one of the biggest trades in recent memory. The market is open for business, we should start seeing some movement now hopefully.

 

[sniper81]

Funny how so many posters that claim to favour a patient multi year rebuild, seem to lack the patience to wait a couple of weeks until the trade deadline for moves to be made.

"Hurry up and gets things going so I can start being patient"

Hahahaha so true. It's really sad actually. Not sure why I laughed.

 

[gamer1035]

Funny how so many posters that claim to favour a patient multi year rebuild, seem to lack the patience to wait a couple of weeks until the trade deadline for moves to be made.

"Hurry up and gets things going so I can start being patient"

my issue is that this evaluation period has already costed us McDavid/Eichel (pending a miracle). If we continue to sit around doing nothing it will cost us 3rd, 4th, maybe 5th overall. this may seem like nothing to you, but it could end up costing us years on the rebuild.

theres nothing to evaluate. this team has a rotten core. blow it the **** up. and fire the clown who got us in this ****ing hole.

 

[Al14]

What a mess of a situation. Kessel is a pouty one-dimensional winger, but it's not like management isn't to blame either.

1) They traded a premium for him when that was absolutely his reputation at the time

2) Management then did NOTHING to try and change that about him. Kessel cheats defensively, doesn't fight for loose pucks, puts in limited effort at practice, etc. Did they ever demote him before? Cut his PP time? Etc? Nope. The management of this team have CREATED the culture of entitlement that exists here, and then they complain about it to the media, talking about accountability/leadership/character without actually doing anything about it.

The Leafs should have taken this hardlined approach with Kessel when he got here. They could have spent a couple of years putting in legitimate effort to mold him into more of a responsible two-way winger, like Kovalchuk became in NJ, or Hossa has become later in his career.

If he didn't respond well to that treatment 4-5 years ago, then we could have simply traded him, and accepted our losses on the whole thing. Instead, worried about upsetting our "star" player, we've wasted 6 years. Not once trying to enforce accountability on him, and now all of a sudden they're trying to do that and are surprised that Kessel is surprised.

Now at 28 years old with 7 years remaining at 8M, he's going to be harder to move than if we'd moved him at 24/25 with a couple years remaining at 5.4M. Our management has had zero vision when it comes to assets, but also when it comes to accountability on the team and how it affects the players.

Exactly, Kessel should have been traded 2 years ago!

Now, the inmates are running the asylum! Carlyle knew it and was powerless to do anything!

The sooner Phaneuf, Kessel, Bozak, Gardiner, Franson, and Lupul, are jettisoned from the team, the better. I'd even trade JvR at this point, because he's been tainted by this bunch too.

 

[egd27]

If Franson gets hurt and we can't move him, or something happens with Winnik and Santa you're the first person I'm calling out. It's one thing to be patient it's another to risk your own players getting hurt and missing out on an opportunity to make trades. Just because the deadline is 2 weeks away doesn't mean we have to wait that long to make moves. And it also doesn't make us impatient wanting us to capitalize after one of the biggest trades in recent memory. The market is open for business, we should start seeing some movement now hopefully.

Does if you don't have a trade partner. I suppose we could try and force something, but generally that flies in the face of patience.

my issue is that this evaluation period has already costed us McDavid/Eichel (pending a miracle). If we continue to sit around doing nothing it will cost us 3rd, 4th, maybe 5th overall. this may seem like nothing to you, but it could end up costing us years on the rebuild.

theres nothing to evaluate. this team has a rotten core. blow it the **** up. and fire the clown who got us in this ****ing hole.

How will it cost us 3rd, 4th, maybe 5th overall if we continue to sit around and do nothing? This group of players has won what, 2 games in they're last 20? You figure they're going on a hot streak if we don't get Winnick and Santorelli out of here pronto?

 

[timlap]

Funny how so many posters that claim to favour a patient multi year rebuild, seem to lack the patience to wait a couple of weeks until the trade deadline for moves to be made.

"Hurry up and gets things going so I can start being patient"

Good observation.

I've noticed a similar logic, every year on these boards.

A) {insert name of Leafs GM} is terrible at trading.

B) {insert name of Leafs GM} should make a trade right now even if other GMs are not currently meeting their asking price.

 

[timlap]

If Franson gets hurt and we can't move him, or something happens with Winnik and Santa you're the first person I'm calling out. It's one thing to be patient it's another to risk your own players getting hurt and missing out on an opportunity to make trades. Just because the deadline is 2 weeks away doesn't mean we have to wait that long to make moves. And it also doesn't make us impatient wanting us to capitalize after one of the biggest trades in recent memory. The market is open for business, we should start seeing some movement now hopefully.

How do we make trades if other teams are not willing yet? Do you imagine the Leafs are sitting on firm high quality offers and all they have to do is pick up the phone and say "yes"? I would imagine other GMs are offering less than fair value in hopes they get us to panic.

I'm sure it's easy to make a trade today- keep lowering our asking price until someone is willing to make the move. Is that what you really want them to do?

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

What a mess of a situation. Kessel is a pouty one-dimensional winger, but it's not like management isn't to blame either.

1) They traded a premium for him when that was absolutely his reputation at the time

2) Management then did NOTHING to try and change that about him. Kessel cheats defensively, doesn't fight for loose pucks, puts in limited effort at practice, etc. Did they ever demote him before? Cut his PP time? Etc? Nope. The management of this team have CREATED the culture of entitlement that exists here, and then they complain about it to the media, talking about accountability/leadership/character without actually doing anything about it.

The Leafs should have taken this hardlined approach with Kessel when he got here. They could have spent a couple of years putting in legitimate effort to mold him into more of a responsible two-way winger, like Kovalchuk became in NJ, or Hossa has become later in his career.

If he didn't respond well to that treatment 4-5 years ago, then we could have simply traded him, and accepted our losses on the whole thing. Instead, worried about upsetting our "star" player, we've wasted 6 years. Not once trying to enforce accountability on him, and now all of a sudden they're trying to do that and are surprised that Kessel is surprised.

Now at 28 years old with 7 years remaining at 8M, he's going to be harder to move than if we'd moved him at 24/25 with a couple years remaining at 5.4M. Our management has had zero vision when it comes to assets, but also when it comes to accountability on the team and how it affects the players.

Spot on man. It's funny how players drafted by Toronto are given a much harder time than those who the organization has traded for/signed as free agents. How many times has Kadri been demoted, sat, had his ice time cut for poor play? Kessel?

Leafs are their own worst enemy. They couldn't bench Kessel or play hard-ball with him his first two years here because they were so desperate to get out of the basement and avoid giving Boston premium picks. It of course didn't work but that was the mind-set at the time. Leafs had no choice but to try and win games. Now Kessel gets away with everything and suffers no repercussions whatsoever.

Way to get rid of that culture of entitlement Burkie. Smells a lot like Muskoka air coming from that dressing room.

 

[egd27]

How do we make trades if other teams are not willing yet? Do you imagine the Leafs are sitting on firm high quality offers and all they have to do is pick up the phone and say "yes"? I would imagine other GMs are offering less than fair value in hopes they get us to panic.

I'm sure it's easy to make a trade today- keep lowering our asking price until someone is willing to make the move. Is that what you really want them to do?

That's how I sold my first house for 15K lower than the original list.

Had to sell it due to firming up the conditional offer on the next one. Wish I could of had the ability to wait a little longer for better offers.

 

[613Leafer]

Spot on man. It's funny how players drafted by Toronto are given a much harder time than those who the organization has traded for/signed as free agents. How many times has Kadri been demoted, sat, had his ice time cut for poor play? Kessel?

Leafs are their own worst enemy. They couldn't bench Kessel or play hard-ball with him his first two years here because they were so desperate to get out of the basement and avoid giving Boston premium picks. It of course didn't work but that was the mind-set at the time. Leafs had no choice but to try and win games. Now Kessel gets away with everything and suffers no repercussions whatsoever.

Way to get rid of that culture of entitlement Burkie. Smells a lot like Muskoka air coming from that dressing room.

At least the "Muskoka" entitlement that Burke alluded to was pretty much just that they didn't want to waive their NTCs, as opposed to them not buying into a team game. None of Sundin, Kubina, McCabe, Kaberle, or Tucker gave off their vibe that they were lazy, didn't care about defence, etc. The team had horrendous goaltending, and still generally finished higher in the standings than the present-day Leafs (only one bottom 10 finish with Sundin, vs 5/6 with Kessel/Phaneuf/Bozak).

Kessel is absolutely responsible for his lazy pouty nature, but so is management. Burke/Nonis bread a culture of entitlement worse than what had been here before. They let players bend them over backwards in contract negotiations because they were terrified of losing them for nothing and having the team take a step back (e.g. Grabovski, Lupul, Phaneuf, Clarkson, Komi, etc), and they've let Kessel, Bozak, etc get away with whatever style of play they like for years and years.

Like you said, early on probably driven by fear of giving up a high pick. And then later on driven by fear of finishing near the bottom that far into an "aggressive retool". But for all their efforts, they had zero short-term success with the team, and bread a culture that ultimately has hurt the franchise longterm.

My #1 criteria for the next GM of this team is that they're willing for this franchise to take some hits in the short-term. Prioritize a long-term philosophy instead of throwing everything we have at winning asap like we have been doing, and I'll be happy.

 

[gamer1035]

Does if you don't have a trade partner. I suppose we could try and force something, but generally that flies in the face of patience.



How will it cost us 3rd, 4th, maybe 5th overall if we continue to sit around and do nothing? This group of players has won what, 2 games in they're last 20? You figure they're going on a hot streak if we don't get Winnick and Santorelli out of here pronto?

yes I figure they will go on a hot streak soon. we've seen it for the past 4 years. Kessel wont stay this cold for long, hes bound for a hot streak. we will hit 9th if nothing happens.

 

[BrannigansLaw]

First you don't NEED your franchise players spread over Center, defense and goaltending. The Devils won without a "real" #1 center. The Penguins won without a franchise D. The Wings won with Osgood in need. The Hawks don't have a franchise centerman, the Ducks won with MacDonald as their #1 center etc... You need franchise PLAYERS, you don't need them in those positions.

And Strome is not the player the NEED. They need McDavid, Eichel or Hannifin. Strome is very good 2nd place prize. Unfortunately, this year, its not likely the Leafs ended up in a positio to get one of the franchise prospects.



To be fair he didn't like the Bruins system and coaching and culture or the money they offered. He didn't "turn his back" on the idea of playing with all-star talent.

That culture being playing your position responsibly and being willing to take a hit to make a play?

I really don't understand how he can feel good about himself making embarrassing plays just to avoid contact. You would think he would at least put in a minimal effort into improving that dimension of his game but he simply just doesn't care and that's the problem with him. He'll get angry and it'll appear he cares but once the cameras are off and the emotions die down, he's back to do nothing to improve Phil.

 

[egd27]

yes I figure they will go on a hot streak soon. we've seen it for the past 4 years. Kessel wont stay this cold for long, hes bound for a hot streak. we will hit 9th if nothing happens.

Hate to burst your bubble, but chances of Kessel being traded before the off season are slim, very slim.

IF they do go on a win streak it's unlikely to be fuelled by the guys likely to be moved between now and the trade deadline. So might as well hang tight for a couple of weeks and wait for the best offer, rather than forcing something for the sake of making a move.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

At least the "Muskoka" entitlement that Burke alluded to was pretty much just that they didn't want to waive their NTCs, as opposed to them not buying into a team game. None of Sundin, Kubina, McCabe, Kaberle, or Tucker gave off their vibe that they were lazy, didn't care about defence, etc. The team had horrendous goaltending, and still generally finished higher in the standings than the present-day Leafs (only one bottom 10 finish with Sundin, vs 5/6 with Kessel/Phaneuf/Bozak).

Kessel is absolutely responsible for his lazy pouty nature, but so is management. Burke/Nonis bread a culture of entitlement worse than what had been here before. They let players bend them over backwards in contract negotiations because they were terrified of losing them for nothing and having the team take a step back (e.g. Grabovski, Lupul, Phaneuf, Clarkson, Komi, etc), and they've let Kessel, Bozak, etc get away with whatever style of play they like for years and years.

Like you said, early on probably driven by fear of giving up a high pick. And then later on driven by fear of finishing near the bottom that far into an "aggressive retool". But for all their efforts, they had zero short-term success with the team, and bread a culture that ultimately has hurt the franchise longterm.

My #1 criteria for the next GM of this team is that they're willing for this franchise to take some hits in the short-term. Prioritize a long-term philosophy instead of throwing everything we have at winning asap like we have been doing, and I'll be happy.

Oh jeez, yeah. I shouldn't even compare the Muskoka Five of Old (Sundin, McCabe, Kaberle, Tucker, Kubina) to the Muskoka Five of new (Kessel, Phaneuf, Bozak, Clarkson, Van Riemsdyk). At least Sundin and Co. had winning years and gave us exciting playoff years. This version of the Leafs doesn't have a leg to stand on when it comes to goodwill from the fans. All they've given us is humiliation and shamed the crest on the front of their jerseys. Even in the waning days of the Sundin era they cared. This team would rather get back home to play Xbox after games. I can't believe these guys had the gall to essentially flip off the fans during salutegate. I know it was kind of overblown like everything Leafs related, but seriously who the **** do they think they are? I'm sorry, have you guys done anything worthwhile for the fans in your time here.

Long term focus is a must for the next general manager for sure. Attempts at short term gain have led to nothing but short term pain and long term pain. What a disaster.

 

[YOYOTCROSTER*]

Blaming Kessel is stupidest thing I ever read on here. Kessel is a goal scorer pure and simple. Is he ever going to be a 2 way player NO. Is he ever going to fight for pucks NO. Is he ever going to hit anyone NO. There are far too many examples of other guys like him who did the same thing like Bossy Lafleur Kane etc. What Kessel is missing is exactly what all those other scoring wingers had a centre who fed them the puck and let them do their magic. I played minor pro hockey myself and there is a guy like Kessel on every team. They are cherished guys who have the gift of scoring. This skill can not be taught. You either have it or you don't. All of them type of guys cheat. And no one cares if they are getting the goals. The BLAME here is entirely with team management for not getting Kessel a centre to feed him. The coach can't do anything so blaming Carlyle and Horachek is a complete waste of time.

Burke is a non hockey guy who played US college hockey. Yes he is a great orator. He brought Kessel without getting him a top flight left handed centre who could feed him. Nonis is another non hockey guy who does not understand how to build a team. Shanny knows this and I know Shanny so he will fix it.

Great lines need it all
Bossy scores Trots does all the back check and passing work Gilles creates room for the other 2 to work with massive hits forecheck and the occasional punch up

Shanny Larionov and Kozlov same thing everyone plays a role to make the line work great

 

[roosterman]

Funny how so many posters that claim to favour a patient multi year rebuild, seem to lack the patience to wait a couple of weeks until the trade deadline for moves to be made.

"Hurry up and gets things going so I can start being patient"

LOL... but very true....

Relax guys the trade deadline has not arrived yet and 8 times out of 10 waiting closer to the deadline will actually gain you a better return.

 

[Sonny21]

Is the timer up yet?

Let's start blowing it up soon please.

 

[Longshot]

my issue is that this evaluation period has already costed us McDavid/Eichel (pending a miracle). If we continue to sit around doing nothing it will cost us 3rd, 4th, maybe 5th overall. this may seem like nothing to you, but it could end up costing us years on the rebuild.

Pretty amazing how their patience with the current group has blown up in their faces isn't it?

 

[Stats01]

LOL... but very true....

Relax guys the trade deadline has not arrived yet and 8 times out of 10 waiting closer to the deadline will actually gain you a better return.

Of course waiting closer to the deadline will likely up the price, but you run the risk of Franson and others getting injured. Franson is dealing with a hip issue. It should be concerning to management that he may not even play tomorrow, (I would guess he'll force the issue and play) but the longer we wait the more risk of possible injury. And yeah you don't want to force anything but if I were Nonis I'd be trying to do business quickly and trying to pressure teams into what I want to get. Obviously that may not work but I'd at least try. The worse thing that can happen is Franson gets a hit to the hip and aggravates it more and he's out 2-3 weeks and we can't move him. Same goes with Winnik, Bozak, Santa. My point is it's not always the best to wait to the last minute to make a deal. MTL got Vanek on the cheap because the Islanders waited too long. Getting out front of the deadline isn't rushing or panicking it's being smart at asset management not risking damage to an asset. Will you get the price you want maybe, maybe not but you at least try and get a deal done ASAP. I don't think Nonis is doing that. If you don't get what you want then you wait it out but it's just my view that Nonis isn't the quickest and most proactive guy in the league. He's very conservative

 

[AustonMitchWilly]

I wish the bomb would just go off already

 

[Ricky Bobby]

Just read a pretty good article in the Sun from Steve Simmons. Hopefully this is a sign of things to come.

"No one will come out and say it out loud: That the tear-down of the Maple Leafs is about to begin.

That for the first time in the modern history of the club, the Leafs are headed to a bare-bones, strip-the-engine, long-term rebuild.
The expectation from inside Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment is that the Leafs will make at least five deals between now and the NHL trade deadline of March 2 and that the larger, maybe more controversial moves — in what could be a four- or five-year project — will be considered and worked through after the season has ended.
Almost every player on the roster is considered to be in play for the Leafs and the rest of the NHL. According to a variety of sources, teams in the hotly contested Western Conference are expected to be the most active at the deadline, with so much at stake come the post-season. The Leafs intend to stockpile as many young players, prospects and draft picks as possible.
The breakdown of the Leafs roster — who is likely to be dealt, when and why — follows here. The information, while speculative, comes from reliable, professional working NHL executives."


http://m.torontosun.com/2015/02/09/maple-leafs-set-to-blow-up-roster

Is the bold possible?

I refuse to even click on the article because of who it's written by and how terrible of a reporter he is. How the best hockey coverage organization in TSN gives him airtime is beyond me.

 

[BrannigansLaw]

Blaming Kessel is stupidest thing I ever read on here. Kessel is a goal scorer pure and simple. Is he ever going to be a 2 way player NO. Is he ever going to fight for pucks NO. Is he ever going to hit anyone NO. There are far too many examples of other guys like him who did the same thing like Bossy Lafleur Kane etc. What Kessel is missing is exactly what all those other scoring wingers had a centre who fed them the puck and let them do their magic. I played minor pro hockey myself and there is a guy like Kessel on every team. They are cherished guys who have the gift of scoring. This skill can not be taught. You either have it or you don't. All of them type of guys cheat. And no one cares if they are getting the goals. The BLAME here is entirely with team management for not getting Kessel a centre to feed him. The coach can't do anything so blaming Carlyle and Horachek is a complete waste of time.

Burke is a non hockey guy who played US college hockey. Yes he is a great orator. He brought Kessel without getting him a top flight left handed centre who could feed him. Nonis is another non hockey guy who does not understand how to build a team. Shanny knows this and I know Shanny so he will fix it.

Great lines need it all
Bossy scores Trots does all the back check and passing work Gilles creates room for the other 2 to work with massive hits forecheck and the occasional punch up

Shanny Larionov and Kozlov same thing everyone plays a role to make the line work great

You just don't get it.

Nobody is asking him to become a two way player. Nobody is asking him to be that guy on his line who is always in the corners fighting for pucks on the forecheck. Nobody asks him to hit anybody either, that last claim is just a joke.

All I wanted was to see him actually try to give even half a **** about his play in the defensive zone. Believe it or not, the way he plays defensively is essentially the same thing as our opponents having a PP every time his line is on the ice.

In terms of fighting for pucks, no, I never expected him to be that guy that always does the hard work. What's pathetic and inexcusable however is his willingness to completely bail on a play or give away the puck whenever it becomes obvious that he might need to be that guy on the forecheck every now and then.

Hockey has changed a lot since the days of Bossy and Lafleur. Pretty much all players coming into the league these days are expected to have some sort of defensive awareness as the game has changed and most successful teams have rosters composed of players that play a decent two-way game.

 

[Leafspoison*]

my issue is that this evaluation period has already costed us McDavid/Eichel (pending a miracle). If we continue to sit around doing nothing it will cost us 3rd, 4th, maybe 5th overall. this may seem like nothing to you, but it could end up costing us years on the rebuild.

theres nothing to evaluate. this team has a rotten core. blow it the **** up. and fire the clown who got us in this ****ing hole.

This.

great post

 

[Sonny21]

You just don't get it.

Nobody is asking him to become a two way player. Nobody is asking him to be that guy on his line who is always in the corners fighting for pucks on the forecheck. Nobody asks him to hit anybody either, that last claim is just a joke.

All I wanted was to see him actually try to give even half a **** about his play in the defensive zone. Believe it or not, the way he plays defensively is essentially the same thing as our opponents having a PP every time his line is on the ice.

In terms of fighting for pucks, no, I never expected him to be that guy that always does the hard work. What's pathetic and inexcusable however is his willingness to completely bail on a play or give away the puck whenever it becomes obvious that he might need to be that guy on the forecheck every now and then.

Hockey has changed a lot since the days of Bossy and Lafleur. Pretty much all players coming into the league these days are expected to have some sort of defensive awareness as the game has changed and most successful teams have rosters composed of players that play a decent two-way game.

Great post.

 

[pucky]

LOL... but very true....

Relax guys the trade deadline has not arrived yet and 8 times out of 10 waiting closer to the deadline will actually gain you a better return.

Possibly. A lot of that depends on luck, however. Injuries or another contender making a big deal sometimes makes another GM panic and overpay on a trade. But, it is also less time for Toronto to make a change before they have wait for the off-season. A lot can happen from the deadline til then. A lot can go wrong, too.