Confirmed with Link: Leafs fire goaltending coach Steve Briere

[zeke]

Team quit on Babcock obviously a different voice and a maturing team is going to improve.
Pretty funny the constant bashing of Babcock and Lou Lam to pump Keefe and Dubas. They’ve all had just as much success.

It's adorable that every time someone brings up Lou/Babs specifically to try and put down Dubas/Keefe, you lie and say the opposite happened.

Why do you keep doing that, I wonder?

 

[zeke]

Difference in management styles.

Lou Lam and Babcock brought discipline and structure to a young group and the players revolted wanting more freedom. A parent and child relationship where its expected leadership/guidance to come from above,

Dubas and Keefe manage as if they're the players best friends, their equals, and age wise there isn't much difference, giving them the freedom without rules and guidelines, allowing the inmates to run the asylum. A best friend relationship, but unable to direct and guide and put a team over the top because their voice has no impact.

Clearly when Lou Lam drafted Matthews a 19 year old kid scoring 34 goals and winning the Calder vs Washington in playoffs, vs a now 23 year old mature 60 goal Rocket Richard and Hart finalist is going to provide a bigger impact on the team results.

That maturation of the 3 Amigo's from 19/20 year old not now 6 years in the league, entering their primes should increase team expectations beyond what was already achieved when they were still young and inexperienced.

Lou had the three amigos PLUS an extra $25m in capspace and still iced a much worse team than Keefe. Pretty amazing, dontcha think?

And team organization and defense improved massively as soon as your "disciplined" Babs was fired. Weird!

I kind of feel bad that you aren't able to use your "franchise record points, downhill ever since" line anymore in these screeds, tho.

 

[egd27]

Couldn’t even get 40 words in before spewing bs eh? They were not “heavy favourites” against Columbus. They were statistically tied in pts% after 70/82 games.
YOU might’ve considered them heavy favourites, and Vegas always leans towards the big draw (just look at nba and nhl championship futures, it skews to big markets to get dollars in) so they were the betting favourite but not by a “big” margin and most of the hockey pundits I remember were pretty split in their picks.

80 point pace through a quarter of the season (USA thanksgiving is the marker teams go by to see if they’re good or not). His firing was completely because of performance.
He was the same onerous dickhead he has always been, he just stopped producing results for the group, and then he was gone.

So they were a much, much better team after Keefe took over, but still no better than Columbus ?

 

[Enga Olly]

So what you are saying is, this is better than Burke, Nonis, but we are 0-55.
When we had great players like Salming, Turnbull, Sittler, Williams, the problem was management and coaching.
So now AM, MM, WN, MR, and we keep our coach and GM. Sounds like you should hate Dubis and Keefe in a few years when we are 0-60.

perhaps I will come to hate Dubas and Keefe. Being a true Leaf fan is a long game - a very long game. I loved those 70's teams, loved Roger Neilson, I hated Ballard. In my lifetime only the 90's really had a good team/management going at the same time. Time will tell whether the Shanahan/Dubas/Keefe combo is good/really good/just OK or terrible. I don't love every move by Keefe or Dubas but it's a far cry from the Nonis or Ferguson days.

 

[ShaneFalco]

So they were a much, much better team after Keefe took over, but still no better than Columbus ?

#goalied

 

[JKG33]

I went back through that thread and copied what you said so others can save some time digging. What you say aligns with what either Bernier or Reimer said in private to a friend of mine who pseudo works at MLSE. He said that Briere wanted to tinker with EVERYTHING about a goalie to make him like he thought they should be without giving a thought to the fact they are all slightly different. He said Briere kept telling him to "unlearn" some of the stuff he had been taught. He also said Briere is an idiot and he was thrilled to get away from him. Anyways...here is what you wrote:

For sure. I had him as a goalie coach when I was in my early teens, and after a few sessions I knew he was a quack. He spent way too much time on the mental aspect and not enough on actual skills. Dumb shit like packing/unpacking your bag a certain way, visualize success and all those new age mental buzzwords. On the ice he was more concerned with turning guys into perfect little robot clones of his ideal goaltender. He didn't understand that different goalies have different styles/weaknesses.

I moved on to GDI, now called Rink Hockey Academy. They're the best in the business here (They trained Chris Dreidger, as well as just about every goalie in the WHL and NCAA that's from Winnipeg and surrounding area). My coach there tailored my game based on my strengths/weaknesses and adapted his coaching to teach me a style that was best for me. He didn't have some cookie cutter coaching for every goalie. When I needed help on the mental side he fixed me up there too, again with a more personal approach. He told me how and why things work (or don't) for me, as opposed to Briere's "do this cause I said so" style.

Now if you don't believe me that's fine, I wouldn't blame you. I'm just some dickhead on a message board. But one thing I'll never understand is how Briere jumped from being a Jr. A goalie coach in the NAHL, with his own private coaching business on the side, straight to the NHL. Don't get me wrong, the NAHL is a great league if you're trying to go play NCAA. But they aren't known for producing NHLers. So how does this nobody move up from there to the Leafs of all teams? And even more so, how does he stay around this long when in his entire tenure in Toronto he hasn't actually produced a single NHL goalie? Literally all he's done is make Andersen worse, and churn out a revolving cast of backups. No prospect has turned out in his 5+ years. That to me is the most telling of all

Appreciate it. Funny how I, some guy who played a couple years of jr a, is saying the same thing as legitimate NHL goalies Bernier and Reimer. Yet it takes boywonder Dubas 5 years to realize Briere isn't worth the paper his contract is printed on. And Briere wasn't even a Dubas guy.

It took them how many years to figure out this guy was a quack?

Exactly. Anyone could see it, except Dubas apparently

 

[zeke]

So they were a much, much better team after Keefe took over, but still no better than Columbus ?

Interesting thing would be that while the Leafs were obvious greatly improved immediately after Keefe was hired, it's also true that starting from that same day, Columbus was the #1 defensive team in hockey the rest of the way.

Leafs were obviously a better team, but Columbus was far from chopped liver, and coming off that long break into a bubble playoffs that must have felt like a rusty preseason, playing a top defensive team was a bit annoying at least.

Still a big choke though, no doubt.

 

[Nylanderthal]

So they were a much, much better team after Keefe took over, but still no better than Columbus ?

Correct

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Appreciate it. Funny how I, some guy who played a couple years of jr a, is saying the same thing as legitimate NHL goalies Bernier and Reimer. Yet it takes boywonder Dubas 5 years to realize Briere isn't worth the paper his contract is printed on. And Briere wasn't even a Dubas guy.



Exactly. Anyone could see it, except Dubas apparently

It seems like Briere, from what I have gleaned, is one of those guys that is big on the theory of goaltending and not so much the repetition of said theories on the ice. I saw a few videos this year of the goalies "working" on stuff with Briere and the pace was SOOOO lazy and slow I found it comical. They were taking shots from difficult angles and the coaches were half heartedly shooting pucks at them in a way that I thought they were just showing them what they were going to do...but nope...that was the whole process.

I have never witnessed a goalie clinic or a full practice to know....but they can't all be like this can they? Taking slow muffin shots from angles they telegraph to the goalies. What is the point if they know what you're going to do and if you do it slowly. How in the world does that do anything?

I think Dubas might have bought into the whole "it's all between the ears" schtick that Briere was pushing until he saw Fred and Mrazek swap places and goaltending coaches.

 

[Niagara Bill]

perhaps I will come to hate Dubas and Keefe. Being a true Leaf fan is a long game - a very long game. I loved those 70's teams, loved Roger Neilson, I hated Ballard. In my lifetime only the 90's really had a good team/management going at the same time. Time will tell whether the Shanahan/Dubas/Keefe combo is good/really good/just OK or terrible. I don't love every move by Keefe or Dubas but it's a far cry from the Nonis or Ferguson days.

All so true, but the best of them all was Punch and King Clancy. Some players hated him, some loved him. But cannot beat 4 cups.

 

[Nylanderthal]

All so true, but the best of them all was Punch and King Clancy. Some players hated him, some loved him. But cannot beat 4 cups.

Six team house league.

 

[JKG33]

It seems like Briere, from what I have gleaned, is one of those guys that is big on the theory of goaltending and not so much the repetition of said theories on the ice. I saw a few videos this year of the goalies "working" on stuff with Briere and the pace was SOOOO lazy and slow I found it comical. They were taking shots from difficult angles and the coaches were half heartedly shooting pucks at them in a way that I thought they were just showing them what they were going to do...but nope...that was the whole process.

I have never witnessed a goalie clinic or a full practice to know....but they can't all be like this can they? Taking slow muffin shots from angles they telegraph to the goalies. What is the point if they know what you're going to do and if you do it slowly. How in the world does that do anything?

I think Dubas might have bought into the whole "it's all between the ears" schtick that Briere was pushing until he saw Fred and Mrazek swap places and goaltending coaches.

You're pretty much right. I haven't seen any Leafs practices but typically you'd do those soft shots in the beginning while your work on the positioning and movement portion of the drill/lesson, and then after a few soft reps you ramp up to game speed. Those drills are basically just to develop muscle memory, so that when you're out of the isolated drill and into scrimmages/games you do the correct movement and positioning automatically when in that given situation.

This past season I worked for my old goalie coach doing 1 on 1 lessons with goalies ranging from 8-20 years old, and starting at around the 14 AAA level the kids are getting very similar drills and shots to what they would as an adult playing pro. By no means am I an NHL level expert, but I've got a pretty good idea of what these guys are supposed to be doing.

 

[kb]

Six team house league.

Yup - bang on. Not to belittle the point, but it's not like winning a Cup in a six team league was a real accomplishment like some on here are pushing.

You make it into the second round and you are in the finals. And it wasn't like the best players in the world were all playing in the NHL either.

 

[Niagara Bill]

Six team house league.

BS. Pure bullpoop.
So the Green Bay Packers of 67 and 68 were not real Champs. That the Yankees of the 50 60s were not good teams, that Rocket Richard played inferior talent, and Bobby Orr was good only because of when he played and Brazil only won world cups because of 16 team tournament. Poor Pele. If he only knew how bad his championships were!

In 67, only 132 jobs in NHL existed. So it was easier? Haha

 

[kb]

BS. Pure bullpoop.
So the Green Bay Packers of 67 and 68 were not real Champs. That the Yankees of the 50 60s were not good teams, that Rocket Richard played inferior talent, and Bobby Orr was good only because of when he played and Brazil only won world cups because of 16 team tournament. Poor Pele. If he only knew how bad his championships were!

In 67, only 132 jobs in NHL existed. So it was easier? Haha

Did any of them play in a 6 team league for nearly 4 decades? Did they play with all the best players from all over the world, or was it 95+% Canadians?

2nd round of the NHL playoffs was the finals.

Yes, it means far less.

 

[Lightsol]

And team organization and defense improved massively as soon as your "disciplined" Babs was fired. Weird!

Yeah, I have to admit, seeing people call Babs' teams "disciplined" just makes me laugh. From a defensive standpoint, Babcock's teams were among the most undisciplined teams I'd ever seen. Half the D-men would have no idea what they were doing, which is why they had to rely on Andersen to bail them out so often.

Appreciate it. Funny how I, some guy who played a couple years of jr a, is saying the same thing as legitimate NHL goalies Bernier and Reimer. Yet it takes boywonder Dubas 5 years to realize Briere isn't worth the paper his contract is printed on. And Briere wasn't even a Dubas guy.

Three years of Lou, four years of Dubas. And if Briere was this bad, shoudln't an experienced GM like Lou have seen it?

 

[Nylanderthal]

BS. Pure bullpoop.
So the Green Bay Packers of 67 and 68 were not real Champs. That the Yankees of the 50 60s were not good teams, that Rocket Richard played inferior talent, and Bobby Orr was good only because of when he played and Brazil only won world cups because of 16 team tournament. Poor Pele. If he only knew how bad his championships were!

In 67, only 132 jobs in NHL existed. So it was easier? Haha

The packers are champs, just like the leafs were, that doesn’t make it something to be held on par with current day success and championships.
You’re halfway right that rocket and Orr benefitted from being elite while playing against guys who spent their summers paving roads or working the farm.
The games all have changed tremendously since those eras

 

[keonsbitterness]

Yup - bang on. Not to belittle the point, but it's not like winning a Cup in a six team league was a real accomplishment like some on here are pushing.

You make it into the second round and you are in the finals. And it wasn't like the best players in the world were all playing in the NHL either.

They pretty much were.

And not calling it a real accomplishment is an incredibly ignorant comment.

 

[kb]

They pretty much were.

And not calling it a real accomplishment is an incredibly ignorant comment.

No, there were almost no players from other countries. So no, you weren't best on best.

Today a team has to win 4 rounds, as there are 32 teams and players from dozens of countries.

So no, winning 2 rounds in a 6 team league with no cap, and not all the best players is not the same winning 4 rounds in a 32 team league.

Nor is it an "incredible ignorant comment". In fact....calling that fact ignorant is ignorant.

 

[Nylanderthal]

They pretty much were.

And not calling it a real accomplishment is an incredibly ignorant comment.

I mean, it’s an accomplishment but it’s not at the level of modern championships. Neither Canada or the USA had a lot of success on the world stage in ice hockey for decades, yet some want to definitively say that the nhl had all the best players? I’m sure there were dozens of European players capable of playing in the nhl had the world been one where that was a true option.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Difference in management styles.
Lou Lam and Babcock brought discipline and structure to a young group and the players revolted wanting more freedom. A parent and child relationship where its expected leadership/guidance to come from above,
Dubas and Keefe manage as if they're the players best friends, their equals, and age wise there isn't much difference, giving them the freedom without rules and guidelines, allowing the inmates to run the asylum.

This is a wildly inaccurate description of their "management styles", and everything that happened. Just because a GM doesn't make meaningless rules about facial hair, and just because a coach isn't abusive to their players, it doesn't mean they treat them like they're their "best friends", or let them "run the asylum". There's been zero indication of anything close to that.

You can have mutual respect and still be strict, and have the structure and guidance we have now - which is way more than anything we had under Lou and Babcock.

 

[Gallagbi]

That maturation of the 3 Amigo's from 19/20 year old not now 6 years in the league, entering their primes should increase team expectations beyond what was already achieved when they were still young and inexperienced.

This contradicts years of your posts and how teams couldn't win without great value ELCs. You wouldn't be changing that opinion simply to bait and troll, would you?

 

[kb]

I mean, it’s an accomplishment but it’s not at the level of modern championships. Neither Canada or the USA had a lot of success on the world stage in ice hockey for decades, yet some want to definitively say that the nhl had all the best players? I’m sure there were dozens of European players capable of playing in the nhl had the world been one where that was a true option.

And this is exactly it. It's rather presumptuous to think that the NHL had all the good players in the 6 team era.

One playoff round win puts a team in the finals. And 1 vs 4 was usually a beatdown.

 

[Maple Leaf]

should hire danny briere

 

[keonsbitterness]

No, there were almost no players from other countries. So no, you weren't best on best.

Today a team has to win 4 rounds, as there are 32 teams and players from dozens of countries.

So no, winning 2 rounds in a 6 team league with no cap, and not all the best players is not the same winning 4 rounds in a 32 team league.

Nor is it an "incredible ignorant comment". In fact....calling that fact ignorant is ignorant.

Good point -- I should have said it was an incredibly ignorant comment. And a massive insult to old-time players.

Since Iron Curtain players couldn't come here in numbers until the early 90s, you have also rendered the NHL useless when there were 12, 14, 16, 18, and 21 teams, all with three or four rounds of playoffs.

Suppose there are 64 teams decades from now and genetically modified women or aliens from Uranus are in the league. Using your logic, I must be watching a sub-standard NHL right now.

I mean, it’s an accomplishment but it’s not at the level of modern championships. Neither Canada or the USA had a lot of success on the world stage in ice hockey for decades, yet some want to definitively say that the nhl had all the best players? I’m sure there were dozens of European players capable of playing in the nhl had the world been one where that was a true option.

I'll definitively say that the NHL had all the best professional players. Not my problem that Eastern Europe banned professionalism. We can only deal with the way the world is. One could also make the case that there are many players playing professionally in Europe right now capable of playing in the NHL ability. Does that cheapen the current NHL?

The US had limited amateur hockey infrastructure until the 70s and developed very few NHL players. Then the Bobby Orr phenomena took hold, and their system started producing NHL players in numbers by the 80s.

There was no significant world hockey stage pre-72 Summit Series. That made it a thing. Canada sent senior pro or amateur teams to the Olympics and World Championships, and for some tournaments did not send a team at all.