Speculation: Leafs Center's Moving Fwd Post the 13-14 Season

King85Kong

Playoffs?
Nov 24, 2013
4,006
0
Toronto
I was a big fan of this quote of yours Don, but now it seems like were both eating crow

"I can't believe they re-signed [Tyler Bozak] for that, I mean, there's a classic case of overpaying a guy. Ridiculous. He's a plugger, he's playing with (Phil) Kessel and he can't get 20 goals. You could get 20 goals playing with Kessel (laugh)."

Don was right in those comments, at the time he made them. Bozak was not producing at the rate of a 1st line center in past seasons, and has improved a lot this year. I'm impressed in what I have seen of Bozak this season and hope he continues next year at this rate. But both Don and Mirtle were right in what they said in the past, and are now complimenting him, as they should. The level of play has changed, which results in change of comments, as it should.


Im really not understanding the love for Holland right now... He's cheap with some upside which is valuable but that's about it. He's not even close to being good defensively... With Bozak and Kadri as our top 2 Cs I would just prefer a veteran in that role... Id like to keep Holland around as a 4th liner (instead of a goon) a 13th forward and a guy battling it out for a 3rd liner winger role - but he's not good enough defensively to play a shut down role he turns the puck over way to much. Id would offer Stastny 5-6 million he's the type of guy if you can land you work around him to make the cap work. He's elite defensively and can play first second or third line. à


James Van Riemsdyk - Tyler Bozak - Phil Kessel
Joffery Lupul - Nazem Kadri - Nikolai Kulemin
----------- - Paul Stastny - David Clarkson
Leo Komarov - Jay Mcclement - Troy Bodie

= Best forward group in the entire eastern conference.

I understand what you're saying, however, can we afford to be paying a third line center six million a year, when we have our defense to worry about. Plus, we are going to have to give raises to some of our RFA's in the next two years. Stastny and Clarkson would make for the most expensive third line in the league. Holland/Bolland (assuming he doesn't ask for the moon) would come at a more affordable rate, and will be able to get the job done. IMO that money would be better spent on a defenseman.
 

613Leafer

Registered User
May 26, 2008
12,846
3,678
Stastny is going to be getting $6M+.... how they heck can you slot that into your 3rd line C? Especially with a 3rd line winger at $5.25M.

Doesn't make any financial sense whatsoever even if it's somehow doable.

If we could get Stastny signed.. then I would seriously consider trading Kadri+ for a big upgrade on the blueline or for a really good two-way winger. I would give it another half-season, and see if Bozak is the real deal before pulling any triggers on moving Kadri though. Hard to say if Bozak is going to be a consistent 60+ pt threat or fall back down to the 45-50 pt range. Stastny is a MAJOR upgrade on Kadri defensively, and that's where this team is the weakest.

If we were dangling a piece like Kadri, we could start conversations on young defencemen like Josi, Myers, Bogosian, Larsson, etc. with an extra piece going back one way or the other to balance it out.

The combination of swapping Stastny for Kadri in our top 6 and then using Kadri to upgrade the blueline would maintain our offence at a similar level but substantially improve this team defensively IMO. Not to mention if you added an upgrade on the blueline by trading Kadri, you could then trade one of Franson/Gardiner for picks/prospects.

If you can add a piece like Stastny in free agency, you do it. It simply ADDS VALUE to the organization, allows other valuable trade chips to become expendable. How do you think Pittsburgh got James Neal? They signed Martin/Michalek, and then Gologoski became (relatively) expendable. They couldn't have done that without the free agency additions.
 

King85Kong

Playoffs?
Nov 24, 2013
4,006
0
Toronto
If we could get Stastny signed.. then I would seriously consider trading Kadri+ for a big upgrade on the blueline or for a really good two-way winger. I would give it another half-season, and see if Bozak is the real deal before pulling any triggers on moving Kadri though. Hard to say if Bozak is going to be a consistent 60+ pt threat or fall back down to the 45-50 pt range. Stastny is a MAJOR upgrade on Kadri defensively, and that's where this team is the weakest.

If we were dangling a piece like Kadri, we could start conversations on young defencemen like Josi, Myers, Bogosian, Larsson, etc. with an extra piece going back one way or the other to balance it out.

The combination of swapping Stastny for Kadri in our top 6 and then using Kadri to upgrade the blueline would maintain our offence at a similar level but substantially improve this team defensively IMO. Not to mention if you added an upgrade on the blueline by trading Kadri, you could then trade one of Franson/Gardiner for picks/prospects.

If you can add a piece like Stastny in free agency, you do it. It simply ADDS VALUE to the organization, allows other valuable trade chips to become expendable. How do you think Pittsburgh got James Neal? They signed Martin/Michalek, and then Gologoski became (relatively) expendable. They couldn't have done that without the free agency additions.


UFA signings are so risky; usually leading to over-paying and signing players for to long 7/8 year deals. Why go through all of that signing and trading hoping it all goes to plan, when you have a capable young player in Kadri that is already producing with the team. Why not use that money and just attack the area of weakness and trade/sign a d-man?
 

Al14

Registered User
Jul 13, 2007
24,238
5,622
If we can not sign Bolland.

I would try to sign Domenic Moore to a one or 2 year deal.

Always liked his game, he could be a good #3C for this team. If Holland is ready, #4C.

Unfortunately, that ship has sailed! Can't see Moore returning to the Leafs. He's also 33 years old now.

I liked Domenic Moore when he was here, but, he priced himself out of Toronto.
 

613Leafer

Registered User
May 26, 2008
12,846
3,678
UFA signings are so risky; usually leading to over-paying and signing players for to long 7/8 year deals. Why go through all of that signing and trading hoping it all goes to plan, when you have a capable young player in Kadri that is already producing with the team. Why not use that money and just attack the area of weakness and trade/sign a d-man?

Sure, some UFA signings are super risky. The Clarkson signing was terrible, the Komi signing was terrible, etc. But those are major contracts handed out to guys that should play 3rd line minutes on a good team, or in Komi's case were coming off a terrible season.

Stastny is a very well rounded player with limited injury history and is under 30 years old. For every B. Richards/Gomez, there's a Hossa (helped Chicago win two Cups), Chara (helped Boston win a Cup), Suter/Parise, Kovalchuk (got NJ to the finals, Russia isn't a factor with Stastny), etc.

As long as it wasn't a 7M+ contract, I don't think the risk would be that bad. If we wanted to add his calibre of player via trade, it would cost us something like Kadri + Gardiner, so being able to get him for just capspace? Especially given the flexibilty we'd have in terms of moving other pieces out to upgrade the blueline. I think it could be a really good move.

Especially considering Kadri's ceiling is pretty much Stastny (probably a bit better offensively, but worse defensively). So if we could instantly get a player of that calibre, and then use Kadri to upgrade the blueline by adding a stud young dman? That's multiple upgrades to the team. For capspace, you let Bolland/Raymond walk, you move Reimer/Franson who are looking for raises, etc. You could easily make it work, upgrade the team for this upcoming season, have a foundation to be competitive for a long time, + bring in future assets by trading some of those RFAs.

And it's not like I'm suggesting signing Stastny then trading Kadri for a 30+ year old veteran. I'm talking about getting a comparable young talent that could be a fixture on the blueline for 10+ years. It's simply a way of adding a major asset up front at the cost of zero assets, and then re-organizing the distribution of asset value on the team by trading from that heavy load up front.
 

Community

44 is Rielly good
Oct 30, 2010
6,795
1,699
The Darkest Timeline
Most likely we keep it as it is (if we can re-sign Bolland): Bozak, Kadri, Bolland, McClement... If we can't, we either go after Stastny as a FA, put Holland as our #2C, or put Kulemin at C.

I would like to get Stastny, the only problem I have is which line takes the hardest minutes against the other teams top line? I also don't think putting Kadri on our 3rd line is ideal and Bozak is staying on the 1st line...

Edit: If we could roll the following:

JVR - Bozak - Kessel (~20 mins)
Lupul - Kadri - XXX (~16 mins)
Kulemin - Stastny - XXX (~16 mins)
XXX - McClement - XXX (~ 8 mins)

XXX = Clarkson, Holland, D'amigo, Leivo, Bodie, Broll, Devane, Orr, possibly a FA (Mostly in order of what I would like to see)... I think in order for this to happen we have to ditch Bolland and trade Clarkson, so it's unlikely... We'd also have to get Stastny to sign with us.

Even writing this out, I don't think there's a way we could get Stastny without trading Kadri (or converting him to wing)... we'd then need to get rid of one of Lupul/Clarkson for cap reasons (we'd have way too much money on the wing). IDK if it'd be worth it in the long-run or not. Additionally, if Stastny plays the roll of shut-down with offense, we need wingers like Kulie to help him... that creates a problem as Kulemin is the only winger we've had so far that works with the Kadri line.
 
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Puckstuff

Registered User
May 12, 2010
11,139
3,337
Milton
Don was right in those comments, at the time he made them. Bozak was not producing at the rate of a 1st line center in past seasons, and has improved a lot this year. I'm impressed in what I have seen of Bozak this season and hope he continues next year at this rate. But both Don and Mirtle were right in what they said in the past, and are now complimenting him, as they should. The level of play has changed, which results in change of comments, as it should.




I understand what you're saying, however, can we afford to be paying a third line center six million a year, when we have our defense to worry about. Plus, we are going to have to give raises to some of our RFA's in the next two years. Stastny and Clarkson would make for the most expensive third line in the league. Holland/Bolland (assuming he doesn't ask for the moon) would come at a more affordable rate, and will be able to get the job done. IMO that money would be better spent on a defenseman.

Im not concerned about the cap at all, even with a Stastny signing of 6.0-6.5 they would be comfortably under the cap. If it ever comes to a time to waive Clarkson... Leafs are so deep pocketed getting rid of Clarkson will never be an issue as they did it to Komisarek, Connolly and Liles. No reason why they wont do it to Clarkson down the road if it absolutely comes to that.
 

AustonMitchWilly

Registered User
Jul 3, 2013
2,315
1
Yeah...you're going to need to expand on both of those statements.

Like a lot lol

I think Holland will be equivalent to Kadri (Skill level) next year.

I think Holland's finesse is better suited for a second line role and I think Kadri's grittiness is more effective in a productive 3rd line role.

Is that enough for you to understand?

Oh I forgot.......


lol
 

New Liskeard

Registered User
Jul 7, 2007
10,486
334
It's really not that messy. Only real issue is the third line center spot.

Anyone who thinks Kadri is gone, is nuts. The guy is developing just fine, and we don't know what he wants, because we have him for a full season after this one at a cost controlled price of 2.9 million dollars.

How about, and here's a crazy idea, worry about Kadri's cost when it's an issue. Because right now, it's not.

Very likely Bolland isn't signed, and Holland moves to the 3C spot.

Top 3 spots figured out. Pretty simple actually

You must not have been aware or paying attention. The Leafs employ a top 6 bottom six philosophy. Holland isn't that guy, at least not yet. Must have missed when Grabo was bought out, and why he was.
 

The Winter Soldier

Registered User
Apr 4, 2011
70,823
21,053
Colorado have a lot of Centers, unless they are converting some to wingers. They may have to deal one. Can't see them signing all of them %M+ to max contracts.

Ryan O'Reilly
Mackinnon
Duchene
Landeskog
Statsny
 

frankthetank91

Registered User
Jul 30, 2011
3,782
54
Colorado have a lot of Centers, unless they are converting some to wingers. They may have to deal one. Can't see them signing all of them %M+ to max contracts.

Ryan O'Reilly
Mackinnon
Duchene
Landeskog
Statsny

ROR has been moved to LW and looked just as good. Landeskog has always been a winger. Mackinnon is playing RW right now. Duchene and Stastny are their #1 and #2. MacKinnon will probably be the #1 in the future with Duchene making a deadly 1-2 punch, or he'll play RW.

And lol to that person who has us signing Stastny to play on the 3rd line. Not only is he not going to sign here but if he did he's going to make a lot more than you want a 3rd liner to make.
 

The Caveman

We are all the goat
Jan 14, 2007
1,606
30
Montreal, PQ
Colorado have a lot of Centers, unless they are converting some to wingers. They may have to deal one. Can't see them signing all of them %M+ to max contracts.

Ryan O'Reilly
Mackinnon
Duchene
Landeskog
Statsny

I think finances more than player position will dictate if they do decide to move someone.
 

gabeliscious

Registered User
Jan 8, 2009
7,574
257
Im really not understanding the love for Holland right now... He's cheap with some upside which is valuable but that's about it. He's not even close to being good defensively... With Bozak and Kadri as our top 2 Cs I would just prefer a veteran in that role... Id like to keep Holland around as a 4th liner (instead of a goon) a 13th forward and a guy battling it out for a 3rd liner winger role - but he's not good enough defensively to play a shut down role he turns the puck over way to much. Id would offer Stastny 5-6 million he's the type of guy if you can land you work around him to make the cap work. He's elite defensively and can play first second or third line. à


James Van Riemsdyk - Tyler Bozak - Phil Kessel
Joffery Lupul - Nazem Kadri - Nikolai Kulemin
----------- - Paul Stastny - David Clarkson
Leo Komarov - Jay Mcclement - Troy Bodie

= Best forward group in the entire eastern conference.

um....stastny is "respectable" defensively but im not sure i would describe him as elite. i also cant see nonis paying $6+ million for a 3rd line center.

the leafs are in a weird center situation right now. bozak seems to work really well with jvr and kessel and kadri puts up solid offensive numbers despite needing to improve on his overall game. stastny wont sign in toronto to play on the 3rd line. nonis would sell him on toronto because he would get to play between jvr and kessel. i think stastny is too much of the same thing. we need to find a center a tier above what we have. to overpay for more 2nd/1b centers doesnt really move us forward.

holland is a waste on the 4th line. im not sure why you are so against him. he is very cheap, has somewhat proven chemistry with clarkson which is HUGE, and he could play on the 2nd line in a pinch.

wouldnt you rather let holland play on the 3rd line for ~$1 million and use the rest of the money you were allocating for stasnty on a decent top 4 defenseman?

i think we would be better off with something like;


jvr-bozak-kessel
lupul-kadri-kulemin
marlie/ufa-holland-clarkson
marlie/ufa/komorov-mclemment-bodie
orr

phanuf-bieksa (as example)
rielly-gunnarson
gardiner-gleason
 

King85Kong

Playoffs?
Nov 24, 2013
4,006
0
Toronto
Sure, some UFA signings are super risky. The Clarkson signing was terrible, the Komi signing was terrible, etc. But those are major contracts handed out to guys that should play 3rd line minutes on a good team, or in Komi's case were coming off a terrible season.

Stastny is a very well rounded player with limited injury history and is under 30 years old. For every B. Richards/Gomez, there's a Hossa (helped Chicago win two Cups), Chara (helped Boston win a Cup), Suter/Parise, Kovalchuk (got NJ to the finals, Russia isn't a factor with Stastny), etc.

As long as it wasn't a 7M+ contract, I don't think the risk would be that bad. If we wanted to add his calibre of player via trade, it would cost us something like Kadri + Gardiner, so being able to get him for just capspace? Especially given the flexibilty we'd have in terms of moving other pieces out to upgrade the blueline. I think it could be a really good move.

Especially considering Kadri's ceiling is pretty much Stastny (probably a bit better offensively, but worse defensively). So if we could instantly get a player of that calibre, and then use Kadri to upgrade the blueline by adding a stud young dman? That's multiple upgrades to the team. For capspace, you let Bolland/Raymond walk, you move Reimer/Franson who are looking for raises, etc. You could easily make it work, upgrade the team for this upcoming season, have a foundation to be competitive for a long time, + bring in future assets by trading some of those RFAs.

And it's not like I'm suggesting signing Stastny then trading Kadri for a 30+ year old veteran. I'm talking about getting a comparable young talent that could be a fixture on the blueline for 10+ years. It's simply a way of adding a major asset up front at the cost of zero assets, and then re-organizing the distribution of asset value on the team by trading from that heavy load up front.

Stastny is probably going to sign for 7/8 years at around 6-7 million. No way he comes here and plays 3c. Kadri is 23 and putting up solid numbers the last two years, and has shown he can carry a line. I'm happy to go with Bozak and Kadri, who are both having a great year. But if we're going to trade one of them, I think Stastny would be better fit to replace Bozak, who is a comparable player. Then we can trade Bozak for D help. Though I don't think we are getting Stastny, so this is probably just what ifs.
 

King85Kong

Playoffs?
Nov 24, 2013
4,006
0
Toronto
Im not concerned about the cap at all, even with a Stastny signing of 6.0-6.5 they would be comfortably under the cap. If it ever comes to a time to waive Clarkson... Leafs are so deep pocketed getting rid of Clarkson will never be an issue as they did it to Komisarek, Connolly and Liles. No reason why they wont do it to Clarkson down the road if it absolutely comes to that.

One should be concerned with the cap. We are up against it, and we need help on the d end. Plus we have RFA and UFA that need to be signed or replaced.
 

The_Chosen_One

Registered User
Jul 4, 2006
6,285
27
Melbourne, Australia
One should be concerned with the cap. We are up against it, and we need help on the d end. Plus we have RFA and UFA that need to be signed or replaced.
I don't think our D is bad as most think. The top pairing defenceman that we need will be Rielly or, possibly, Gardiner. We really don't need to go for mid-pairing defenceman who we already have in Gunnarsson, Gleasson, and possibly Ranger.
 

SprDaVE

Moderator
Sep 20, 2008
52,586
34,445
Stastny isn't going to come to Toronto to be a 3C

I have no idea why anyone would want Stastny over Kadri for the money, term and overall skill he'll bring.

Keep our homegrown talent, which is what people are crying about these days, and sign a player that we actually need. Stastny is not one of them.
 

The Winter Soldier

Registered User
Apr 4, 2011
70,823
21,053
Leafs have found their #1C this year, Tyler Bozak. All hockey metrics point to this, he is one of the NHL's best Centers and He is locked up for 5 years.

We can build around him and our #1 line.

Search is over. Leafs finally have a bonefide #1C since Sundin.
 

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