Post-Game Talk: leafs 3 vgk... forget about it

francis246

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Nov 16, 2007
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So we trade Nylander or Marner to address holes, let pending FA’s walk for nothing?

I'm open to moving JVR but it's a tough decision. It's based on three things. 1. Can the leafs make a push and do something in the playoffs this year? If so then you don't move JVR.

2. If you decide that you want to move on from him, what is he realistically gonna be traded for? I'm not sure he would get anything more than a first a B-Level prospect (i could be wrong). But we have a ton of those right now, not everyone will make the leafs.

3. Do you want to bring him back (idk I think it's 50/50) there's not much better out there right now: maybe James Neal but he might stay in vegas.

I think you have to be realistic when it comes to the leafs situation. They will eventually have to move one of Nylander, Marner or Brown to get a defenseman. Drouin for Sergachev situation
 

CabanaBoy5

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Feb 17, 2013
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I’d rather they move Marner for that young dman. Although he has great vision and is going to be a very good player, he’s rather smallish and very unstable on his skates(a lot like Kadri used to be). His shot needs a lot of work as well. Nylander, once he figures out how to get his shot off quicker, is going to score a ton.
 

ShaneFalco

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Jul 15, 2012
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I don’t see them as a deep playoff team at all. Not as currently constructed. And I don’t think you let guys walk for nothing based on a long-shot. There’s holes on D, at C, and this team would get pushed round a bit in the playoffs I think.

I can see them keeping JVR to re-sign him, but I hope that doesn’t happen, unless it’s a very good contract (for the Leafs), which is a pipe-dream I think.

I also hope the likes of Brown, Marner and Nylander are kept. Find another way to get a d-man (ie the picks they could get for pending UFA’s....moving someone like Gardiner etc
 

francis246

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Nov 16, 2007
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I don’t see them as a deep playoff team at all. Not as currently constructed. And I don’t think you let guys walk for nothing based on a long-shot. There’s holes on D, at C, and this team would get pushed round a bit in the playoffs I think.

I can see them keeping JVR to re-sign him, but I hope that doesn’t happen, unless it’s a very good contract (for the Leafs), which is a pipe-dream I think.

I also hope the likes of Brown, Marner and Nylander are kept. Find another way to get a d-man (ie the picks they could get for pending UFA’s....moving someone like Gardiner etc

You aren't getting a top tier dman unless you draft one or trade for one. To sign one through UFA you have a 1 in 31 chance (those odds blow). Doughty already said he doesn't want to play here, I can't see Karlsson coming to Toronto. So it's gonna have to be a trade for one to get a young guy like Trouba or one of the CBJ guys( that will come at a price). Everyone not named Andersen or Matthews should be available in the right deal
 

ULF_55

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Leafs trouble is Hainsey is the reliable guy, Rielly is still learning, Gardiner isn't someone you shelter a newbie with.

Polak, Carrick, Marincin are at best bottom pairing guys.

Rielly - 1st. pairing someone (not in system)
Gardiner - Hainsey / Zaitsev
Borgman - Zaitsev / Hainsey

I don't think getting a 1st. pairing defender is going to happen.
I believe it is possible to get a 2nd. pairing defender, and it could be at a reasonable price. Likely to be someone on the downside of their career.

If they could get the reliable 2nd. pairing defender, who is under contract for a couple seasons, it would let the system cook the kids.
In the meantime they have to shuffle someone into the 1st. pairing, which likely means Hainsey stays with Rielly, and the acquired 2nd. pairing defender covers up the mistakes that we know a youngster like Borgman will make for the next while.

Leafs miss Kadri, even if he wasn't producing points recently, he at least provided a viable threat in the middle of the line-up.
 

Bullseye

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Leafs trouble is Hainsey is the reliable guy, Rielly is still learning, Gardiner isn't someone you shelter a newbie with.

Polak, Carrick, Marincin are at best bottom pairing guys.

Rielly - 1st. pairing someone (not in system)
Gardiner - Hainsey / Zaitsev
Borgman - Zaitsev / Hainsey

I don't think getting a 1st. pairing defender is going to happen.
I believe it is possible to get a 2nd. pairing defender, and it could be at a reasonable price. Likely to be someone on the downside of their career.

If they could get the reliable 2nd. pairing defender, who is under contract for a couple seasons, it would let the system cook the kids.
In the meantime they have to shuffle someone into the 1st. pairing, which likely means Hainsey stays with Rielly, and the acquired 2nd. pairing defender covers up the mistakes that we know a youngster like Borgman will make for the next while.

Leafs miss Kadri, even if he wasn't producing points recently, he at least provided a viable threat in the middle of the line-up.

Nailed it Ulf. The job of making this team a strong contender isn't nearly done. We got Matthews which jumped everything forward somewhat artificially. We still need to create a strong deep solid defence without selling off our young talented forward future. Tall order if you draft poorly. We need to draft extremely well at defence going forward. Trading JVR only helps this because we are not a legit contender for the Cup with or without him.
 

Daisy Jane

everything is gonna be okay!
Jul 2, 2009
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The season likely ends the way last season ended but with a longer 1st round exit or an early 2nd rnd. exit. If we go beyond that it's on the back of a superstar performance from Matthews or Freddy or both. We all know we have warts that make-up can't cover anymore. Hainsey is gonna get tired at some point. JVR, Bozak will likely walk, Kommy getting dealt to the west at TTD.

With that type of speculated outcome what would your thoughts be?

Pure speculation on my part. Sorry to butt in to the conversation.

meh more the merrier.
I personally believe, unlke some here, that regardless of luxury - all the travel builds up, and we had the heaviest road schedule, heaviest playing schedule, and heaviest clump of game schedule in the league. so I think the "warts" you speak of (not diminishing them, just saying i don't 'feel' it's as bad as some make it out - will ease once we get more rest, more practice (remember we are young) and more ACC/last change, is the better we will be. we got better as the season got on last year and I don't see why this will change this year.

I honestly don't think the Leafs will 'falter' as much as people do either. despite the schedule a lot of our players (even when injured) aren't playing over 18 minutes. that will kick in for the playoffs. for me it doesn't matter if we have an early second round exit, because that's another 4 games in another round (at least), for a young team which is good for them. people gave the Leafs zero hope vs. washington and they were in every single game (and I think they learned how to close out a series). same as this time.

if we go deeper, I don't think it's just because Matthews/Andersen went out of worldly - they're expected to do well, i think it's because collectively as a team we're not leaning on them( NOW). and they've cut back on a lot of minutes on the PK.

but even if it works out exactly the way you said i'm fine with it
2nd year young team, 2nd playoff performance (or a gutzy game seven loss) is fine. learn and grow.
byebye to those players and we can go shopping in July.
 

Bullseye

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I guess my thoughts are about Kapanen as much as about JVR. I remember how Rielly took off when Phaneuf was traded. He was ready to become the guy. JVR has value to get something we need - draft depth. I think we will not score as much without JVR but it's the future anyway why not get it started now. We're not winning the Cup as much as I would love to have egg all over my face at a Young Street parade - it's not happening this year and simply getting p/o experience isn't worth the cost of giving up building the future - the future comes quickly and I 'd prefer it to be a deep and strong future rather than a thin one because we were hoping something this year. I know this is somewhat pollyanna.
 
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Minus Mitch

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Hainsey will be 37 before this season is over. No way you should be relying on him to be a top pairing defensemen. The defensive woes of this team are more closely tied to a team focused on offense. A really easy team to counter against. Especially when Bozaks line is on. The opposition breaks out so easy because there is zero forcheck pressure.
 

firstemperor

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May 25, 2011
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Having slept on the game last night, while I do think the Leafs were a no-show, it's made me think there are fundamental issues with the system we're playing right now.

1) Hyman and Martin consistently leak out too far for the stretch pass and it's a personnel and systemic issue. Personnel- They aren't capable of that type of usage nor should they be put in that position. That type of stretch pass is a dead play when your passing it to them. Why are two of our most offensively incapable players leaking out for the stretch pass the most?

Systemic- Why are they always the first to leak out and exit the zone.

I always bought into the Martin "least of all evils" argument that what he provides is a necessity (and still can accept it), but he's been a fundamentally terrible player offensively and defensively. His awareness in terms of reading plays in our own end or even covering the points is on a plane similar to JVR. Except he's the only player on the ice that I consistently see taking too long of a shift- which I've noticed we often let slide because of how little he actually plays, nonetheless.

2) We could use a defender like McNabb. And I never though I'd say this, but even a guy like Engelland- because the gap between what Babcock perceives Polak can/or is- between the former two is massive. And I'm only speaking from the framework of "we need a big guy down the line in our back-end if we want to peak in the playoffs"

Polak has one of the worst sticks for a bigger defender I've ever seen and that takes away actual positives he can provide on the ice (I mean, geniuinely, watching other teams- big defenders with a long stick tend to be massive disruptions in passing/shooting lanes, or even on the entry- save Polak)- given he provides nothing offensively in terms of driving the play already.

3) I don't know what to say about Gardiner at this point. He's decided to stop being a PMD completely. He has no will to skate with the puck anymore. Without any idea of what's going on behind the scenes, it's impossible to know exactly why but on the rare occasion, you see him rush the puck up ice, sometimes with his deceptive 3-5'o clock skating style while picking up speed. It's a shame because those flashes have been far and few between. He's not a prospect anymore. And if it hasn't been made abundantly clear with Zaits gone, there is now no question that Gardiner- at the very least, was sinking that pairing on his part.

I haven't seen a game this year (Leaf games that is, Tampa is another ridiculously good transition team) and this is a testament to Gallant and Vegas where a team consistently made such nice, smooth short transition passes entering our end of the ice. Skating it in with a lot of speed, short quick passes and if they were cut off- dumping it in and entering the fore-check with even more speed. Not only did we get out-worked tonight, it looked like Gallant has been severely out-coaching Babcock all year with the system he's been running......and we got skate to the ground last night. Vegas was easily the more faster team.
 

Jozay

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Jul 9, 2012
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We need more than one reliable pair.

Hopefully Lou can get a dman in here, to pair up with Zaitsev.
 

Bullseye

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Having slept on the game last night, while I do think the Leafs were a no-show, it's made me think there are fundamental issues with the system we're playing right now.

3) I don't know what to say about Gardiner at this point. He's decided to stop being a PMD completely.

I disagree that they were a no-show. They prepared and knew what they were in for and it happened anyway - they couldn't stop it. I agree with the Gardiner comments - I've noticed this penchant for the long cross-ice pass that gets intercepted so often. He's in his bi-annual down year - next year will be better ;)
 

firstemperor

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May 25, 2011
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I disagree that they were a no-show. They prepared and knew what they were in for and it happened anyway - they couldn't stop it. I agree with the Gardiner comments - I've noticed this penchant for the long cross-ice pass that gets intercepted so often. He's in his bi-annual down year - next year will be better ;)

Unfortunately I have to concede that was one of my biggest worries and I might have been a bit optimistic when I said that. Especially because we looked good on the first-shift of the game. I think Vegas just looked like the better built team and a lot of that has to do with the habits they built over the year...and the bad habits our team has fostered.
 
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Minus Mitch

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Oct 17, 2017
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Looks like Gallant has "out coached" everyone this season. He has a team full of players willing to play a winning style. Babcock is envious as indicated by his pre game. Leafs have way to many offense only players lining up.
 

Minus Mitch

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Oct 17, 2017
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I disagree that they were a no-show. They prepared and knew what they were in for and it happened anyway - they couldn't stop it. I agree with the Gardiner comments - I've noticed this penchant for the long cross-ice pass that gets intercepted so often. He's in his bi-annual down year - next year will be better ;)
Gardiner has always been brain dead and has always been terrible. In this NHL defensemen don't rush pucks they move it. He just makes continual bad decisions. Even when he rushed the puck 9 times out of 10 it resulted in nothing. Doing big circles around the outside of the offensive zone is such a waste.
 

Muston Atthews

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Jul 2, 2009
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Having slept on the game last night, while I do think the Leafs were a no-show, it's made me think there are fundamental issues with the system we're playing right now.

1) Hyman and Martin consistently leak out too far for the stretch pass and it's a personnel and systemic issue. Personnel- They aren't capable of that type of usage nor should they be put in that position. That type of stretch pass is a dead play when your passing it to them. Why are two of our most offensively incapable players leaking out for the stretch pass the most?

Systemic- Why are they always the first to leak out and exit the zone.

I always bought into the Martin "least of all evils" argument that what he provides is a necessity (and still can accept it), but he's been a fundamentally terrible player offensively and defensively. His awareness in terms of reading plays in our own end or even covering the points is on a plane similar to JVR. Except he's the only player on the ice that I consistently see taking too long of a shift- which I've noticed we often let slide because of how little he actually plays, nonetheless.

2) We could use a defender like McNabb. And I never though I'd say this, but even a guy like Engelland- because the gap between what Babcock perceives Polak can/or is- between the former two is massive. And I'm only speaking from the framework of "we need a big guy down the line in our back-end if we want to peak in the playoffs"

Polak has one of the worst sticks for a bigger defender I've ever seen and that takes away actual positives he can provide on the ice (I mean, geniuinely, watching other teams- big defenders with a long stick tend to be massive disruptions in passing/shooting lanes, or even on the entry- save Polak)- given he provides nothing offensively in terms of driving the play already.

3) I don't know what to say about Gardiner at this point. He's decided to stop being a PMD completely. He has no will to skate with the puck anymore. Without any idea of what's going on behind the scenes, it's impossible to know exactly why but on the rare occasion, you see him rush the puck up ice, sometimes with his deceptive 3-5'o clock skating style while picking up speed. It's a shame because those flashes have been far and few between. He's not a prospect anymore. And if it hasn't been made abundantly clear with Zaits gone, there is now no question that Gardiner- at the very least, was sinking that pairing on his part.

I haven't seen a game this year (Leaf games that is, Tampa is another ridiculously good transition team) and this is a testament to Gallant and Vegas where a team consistently made such nice, smooth short transition passes entering our end of the ice. Skating it in with a lot of speed, short quick passes and if they were cut off- dumping it in and entering the fore-check with even more speed. Not only did we get out-worked tonight, it looked like Gallant has been severely out-coaching Babcock all year with the system he's been running......and we got skate to the ground last night. Vegas was easily the more faster team.

Nice post. Wouldn’t be surprised if we get Gudbranson.
 

Bullseye

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Jun 14, 2012
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Our defensive system is not working with the current personnel. We have an AHL defence beyond our top 2 guys plus Polak and Gards. The younger guys are learning and aren't consistent. It's normal. We are lacking veteran competency in Polak and Gardiner. Where they should be reliable they are not right now. A trade for a depth veteran might stabilize things. Pitt is looking for the same thing right now. I like Gudas and Engelland type guys to replace some of our faulty players but not sure what Lou will come up with in-season or if they have some UFA's domestic or foreign in mind off-season.
 
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CabanaBoy5

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Gardiner has always been brain dead and has always been terrible. In this NHL defensemen don't rush pucks they move it. He just makes continual bad decisions. Even when he rushed the puck 9 times out of 10 it resulted in nothing. Doing big circles around the outside of the offensive zone is such a waste.
I wish this was his only problem. I have concerns with his rather lackadaisical approach to moving the puck, especially when he beats the forward to the puck, only to be outmuscled or outwitted for the puck.
 

Paradoc

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Mar 13, 2013
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I’d rather they move Marner for that young dman. Although he has great vision and is going to be a very good player, he’s rather smallish and very unstable on his skates(a lot like Kadri used to be). His shot needs a lot of work as well. Nylander, once he figures out how to get his shot off quicker, is going to score a ton.
You can say the same for Marner. Once he fills out his frame, his shot becomes heavier and he becomes more stable on his feet. Not to mention, this is his second professional season and he is already second in points for team.
 

CabanaBoy5

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You can say the same for Marner. Once he fills out his frame, his shot becomes heavier and he becomes more stable on his feet. Not to mention, this is his second professional season and he is already second in points for team.
I agree with you, but we gotta give up something to get something and if it's gotta be one of our big 3 then I'd rather it be Marner. But if there is another way to get that No. 1 or 2 defenceman, I'm not adverse to keeping Marner, he's going to be good.
 

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