Last Cup winner without a top three pick on the roster
- Thread starter NYCFlyer
- Start date
I've talked about this in the past about how a common thread with teams winning the Cup is a long stretch of losing and having high draft picks. I do think you can win without it, but it certainly helps to have a team with that type of talent somewhere on the roster.
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skoods
Registered User
Detroit I think is one exception. Stuart isn't the type of "top 3 pick" that you're talking about in this discussion. The Red Wings, however, did have a team full of Hall of Famers which kind of negates the need for a top three pick. The Bruins might be an exception too. They had Seguin but he wasn't really the Seguin we know and love today.
skoods
Registered User
Pantokrator
Who's the clown?
You could also argue though that a lot of teams with top 3 picks have not won the cup. Just because we trade into the top three does not guarantee cup success. I think of the Islanders with Tavares, Colorado with Erik Johnson and MacKinnon, the Caps and Ovechkin for example.
I think it becomes increasingly difficult to do this because when you stink for a while and get high picks, you need to win on their ELC. Once that team begins to have success, those salary cap hits render the team shallow with regard to depth.
You either need a GM with savvy moves (like Bowman in Chicago), or a team that lucks into its depth (I put the Penguins in this mold - they have super high end talent and they finally have depth, but that depth seems to be a chemistry not predicted when they were signed and drafted - I could be wrong, it just seems like their depth has finally jelled after years of weakness).
I think the best way to have a lasting impact is to have depth with few top salaries. Teams have a habit of making big signings and then they are limited in their depth. For the Flyers, I think having players like Simmonds and Couturier who are solid contributors with decent cap hits is the way to go.
If the Flyers got, for example, Auston Matthews in this draft, they would have to win in the next three year before all of our depth would have to be jettisoned in order to resign him. This is what the Lightning are going through now. They can’t afford to sign Stamkos without killing their depth in players like Killorn, Kucherov, and Johnson.
So my solution is to go for depth in the team rather than a few top end guys and no depth. I hope the Flyers sign no UFAs this year. We need to sign Schenn and Gudas to reasonable contracts and just go from there. What UFA can the Flyers bring in without overpaying who will put us over the top? We have to get our young d-men to pan out before we can think of winning a Cup.
Patience is the key.
I think it becomes increasingly difficult to do this because when you stink for a while and get high picks, you need to win on their ELC. Once that team begins to have success, those salary cap hits render the team shallow with regard to depth.
You either need a GM with savvy moves (like Bowman in Chicago), or a team that lucks into its depth (I put the Penguins in this mold - they have super high end talent and they finally have depth, but that depth seems to be a chemistry not predicted when they were signed and drafted - I could be wrong, it just seems like their depth has finally jelled after years of weakness).
I think the best way to have a lasting impact is to have depth with few top salaries. Teams have a habit of making big signings and then they are limited in their depth. For the Flyers, I think having players like Simmonds and Couturier who are solid contributors with decent cap hits is the way to go.
If the Flyers got, for example, Auston Matthews in this draft, they would have to win in the next three year before all of our depth would have to be jettisoned in order to resign him. This is what the Lightning are going through now. They can’t afford to sign Stamkos without killing their depth in players like Killorn, Kucherov, and Johnson.
So my solution is to go for depth in the team rather than a few top end guys and no depth. I hope the Flyers sign no UFAs this year. We need to sign Schenn and Gudas to reasonable contracts and just go from there. What UFA can the Flyers bring in without overpaying who will put us over the top? We have to get our young d-men to pan out before we can think of winning a Cup.
Patience is the key.
- Sep 28, 2014
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Kind of irrelevant.
Giroux would likely go 2nd overall in a 2006 re-draft behind only Toews
Voracek would likely go top 7 in a 2007 re-draft
Simmonds would likely go top 5-10 in a 2007 re-draft
Schenn would likely go top 5-10 in a 2009 re-draft
Couturier stays in the top 5-10 in a 2011 re-draft
Gostisbehere would jump into the top 10 in a 2012 re-draft
We have gotten great value out of our draft picks and trades that have us positioned better than a lot of teams that have had actual 1st overall or a top 3 picks, like Colorado for instance.
Giroux would likely go 2nd overall in a 2006 re-draft behind only Toews
Voracek would likely go top 7 in a 2007 re-draft
Simmonds would likely go top 5-10 in a 2007 re-draft
Schenn would likely go top 5-10 in a 2009 re-draft
Couturier stays in the top 5-10 in a 2011 re-draft
Gostisbehere would jump into the top 10 in a 2012 re-draft
We have gotten great value out of our draft picks and trades that have us positioned better than a lot of teams that have had actual 1st overall or a top 3 picks, like Colorado for instance.
Well Detroit is and isn't an exception. Yzerman was a cornerstone piece drafted 4th overall (1 pick out of the top 3). They also drafted Keith Primeau 3rd overall and moved him for Brendan Shanahan, another important piece of their dynasty. Do they get Shanahan without a high pick talent like Primeau to move much like LA using 5th overall B.Schenn to get a key piece in Richards?
But Detroit's dynasty was created by being ahead of the rest of the NHL in scouting at first Russia and then Scandinavia. It can't really be replicated though. The home run picks of Datsyuk and Zetterberg that were instrumental in the 2008 cup run were picked before the league had 30 teams. More teams means more scouts. Is it a coincidence that they haven't drafted a superstar player late since the league went to 30 teams? Also with the advent of the Internet and professional and amateur scouting communities, it is harder for guys to slip thru the cracks. Add to it that there aren't any untapped markets to exploit any more.
That doesn't mean there aren't still areas for the Flyers to exploit such as Russia and the USHL where prospects tend to fall thru the cracks or are underrated. However replicating Detroit's run would be near impossible as it was built with multiple hall of famers drafted in the 3rd round or later.
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It was the AVs in 2001. Last 14 years every team had one and this year 7 of the 8 teams that are left have one. (Neither Nashville or Anaheim have one). Although a couple of top 3's on cup winners were secondary role players I can't believe it is merely coincidence. Its is about having top shelf difference makers that can dominate a game. Our best player in the Washington series was Nuevirth he was our only difference maker.
CodyTheHuman
Registered User
This.
Giroux is our top 3 pick. Sure, he wasn't actually picked there, but he plays as well or better than most people picked in those situations. Then you add in our other players and we have the core to win a cup, just need to shed the dead weight.
CodyTheHuman
Registered User
He;s not a difference maker? Take Giroux out of the series and it's over in 4 games. He may not have scored much, but he helped stop the Caps top 6 from scoring. You guys expect one player to carry the team constantly, it's not enough he carried the team through the regular season, now he needs to do it all by himself in the playoffs too. Let's not consider the fact that he was the only defensively capable center after Couturier went down, or the fact that there was no secondary scoring threats to help take some of the defensive coverage off of or, or even the fact that he is likely playing hurt. He must do everything by himself. If he isn't scoring at a PPG pace constantly he's a bum. You guys are so god damn predictable.
TCTC
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There's a reason why Backstrom was as unnoticeable as Giroux (except scoring the series winning goal obviously...). They cancelled each other out.
The Caps won that series because of their depth, not because of their top line.
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He has 62 points in 63 playoff games while preventing other teams top players from lighting it up.
Bye bye.
Magua
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I don't think for whatever reason he has been the same player "over the last two years". Do you? And what's with the "Bye bye"?? That's the kind of response I'd expect from some 15 year old Penguin fan. Cmon really?
Magua - Yea that's exactly what I was thinking to get us over the top.
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Saying Giroux "isnt a difference maker" doesnt deserve a respectful response. Its such a bogus comment. He literally does everything for this team. The guy just finished leading the NHL in points over a 5 year span, plays D, kills penalties, runs the PP, is elite at faceoffs, etc etc. Saying he isnt a difference maker is the type of comment id expect to see from a 15 year old casual fan on facebook.
The last 2 seasons the Flyers have not had the depth on O or D as they had in previous seasons. This makes it more difficult for the entire team, top to bottom, to score. Girouxs offensive production dipped a bit but his defensive play has improved substantially at the same time.
CodyTheHuman
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JXC
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JXC
#ThisAintXbox #ThisAintMightyDucks #FireHakstol
- Dec 28, 2005
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JXC
#ThisAintXbox #ThisAintMightyDucks #FireHakstol
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It's probably not strictly accurate to say Giroux isn't a difference maker, but I think it is reasonable to say that he's not on par with the Top 3 selections who have led their teams to recent Cups.
Doughty.
Crosby.
Kane.
They have come up biggest when their teams needed them at the ultimate crunch time.
Still, it's no disgrace to be a level below the best.
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