Player Discussion Lars Eller

[Jags]

Eller has allowed fewer goals against on the PK consistently through-out his career.

That's all there is to your argument, Hive, and it's objectively false.

Now you want to backpedal to qualify it from yet another flawed perspective.

The bottom line is that you said Eller has allowed fewer goals throughout his career than Beagle on the PK, and it's not true.

Your larger argument -- simply that Eller is clearly and objectively the superior penalty killer -- is also not nearly as clear-cut as you make it out to be. My only, very simple point is that it's arguable. Very arguable. Easily arguable. And I've made it clear why.

That Eller is superior in this capacity is just your opinion, and it's easy to argue otherwise.

The bottom line for me is that if I had to choose one of these guys to kill a penalty with my life on the line, yes, I want the guy that'll win the faceoffs. I want the guy who's better in pursuit and on the forecheck. I want the guy with the bigger motor and higher compete level. I want the guy that's having a stellar season over the one who very clearly isn't. I want the guy who has no glaring weaknesses in his PK game over the one who is a liability or secondary option in certain situations.

I want Beagle every time. Your mileage may vary. You're entitled to that, but let's not confuse your subjective opinions with objective truths anymore. Your opinions are obviously well-considered and thoughtful, regardless of whether or not they're universally 100% correct. If you can't eke out even the piddly amount of humility it would take to admit that you overstated this one point, then there's just no point in debating things with you.

They're both great PKers. It's absolutely arguable who might be better; but it's just not productive to argue it with you...

 

[Hivemind]

So basically your entire rant is coming down to me using the word "consistently" in that one sentence? Really? For me, consistent doesn't mean 100%, it means more often than not. It means low variance. Eller has had been the lower variance player of the two when it comes to limiting goals against while shorthanded. To you, consistently apparently means each and every season. I guess we've been arguing semantics this whole time.

 

[Jags]

So basically your entire rant is coming down to me using the word "consistently" in that one sentence? Really?

No. "Consistently" is only the half of it. The other half is "throughout his career."

Throughout means "all the way through." Not part of the time or some of the time or times that you cherry-pick to suit your argument. All the way through.

Throughout his career, Eller has NOT been better. Throughout his career, according to the metric you chose, Eller was objectively, factually worse. See, that's the opposite of what you said.

You were wrong, in other words. But let's not stop there...

For me, consistent doesn't mean 100%, it means more often than not.

That's not how words work, Hive. You don't get to have your own personal definitions.

"Consistent" doesn't mean "most of the time." It means accordant, unchanging; a pattern of thought or behavior. Again, not some of the time or most of the time. Statistically, they've both had ups and downs, some of which are on them and some are owed to the people/systems around them.

Another doozy was "the objective truth" when what you really meant was "my personal, subjective opinion."

So yeah, I guess I can see how it's frustrating to you that this came down to semantics. Your fundamental misunderstanding of what important words mean makes this whole thing seem pretty silly. Your steadfast refusal to demonstrate even a modicum of humility, on the other hand, remains unsolved.

Seriously, though... I appreciate the discussion. Having just come over from the official forums, it's nice to talk hockey with more folks that know what they're talking about, even (and sometimes especially) when we don't agree.

 

[Hivemind]

The irony of condemning someone for not displaying humility while writing out targeted rants against that person's semantic choices is overwhelming. emoticon or not.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Personally I enjoy seeing Jags "fight the arrogance" in a lot of these posts....entertaining.

 

[Mr Jackpot]

what do you guys think of the 2x 2nd round pick you gave for Larry?

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

what do you guys think of the 2x 2nd round pick you gave for Larry?

They're not useful in our pursuit of the Stanley Cup with the current core so

 

[Hivemind]

what do you guys think of the 2x 2nd round pick you gave for Larry?

While they could be useful as trade currency or as part of a future rebuild, the real issue is whether or not Eller lives up to his salary cap hit. Fortunately there have been some positive signs regarding his offensive game recently.

 

[twabby]

He and Vrana just need more ice-time at this point. They've been dominant and hopefully it carries into the second half of the season and postseason.

 

[Mr Jackpot]

They're not useful in our pursuit of the Stanley Cup with the current core so

They could've been useful to get a better player than Eller, that's the point.

I'm still in shock that someone gave 2x 2nd round pick for Eller, what's going on here.

 

[Stewie G]

They could've been useful to get a better player than Eller, that's the point.

I'm still in shock that someone gave 2x 2nd round pick for Eller, what's going on here.

You're probably right. I bet GMBM had better players he could have picked up for that price but chose Eller instead, just because.

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

They could've been useful to get a better player than Eller, that's the point.

I'm still in shock that someone gave 2x 2nd round pick for Eller, what's going on here.

There weren't many options on the market.

What's more shocking to you, giving two 2nds for Eller or giving two 2nds and signing a plug like Andrew Shaw to a 6 year, $23.4M contract?

 

[Hivemind]

The only better center that moved via trade was Brassard, and he cost Zibanejad + 2nd. The quality UFA centers signed for much higher cap hits, and largely on teams where they could play a larger role than 3C.

 

[AlexBrovechkin8]

He's been real solid the last 10-12 games. Sizable upgrade over previous 3Cs if he continues this level of play.

 

[SpinningEdge]

There weren't many options on the market.

What's more shocking to you, giving two 2nds for Eller or giving two 2nds and signing a plug like Andrew Shaw to a 6 year, $23.4M contract?

The better option would be to wait until deadline to add a missing piece - not trade two second rd picks for a bad contract just because GMBM freaked out and thought we needed four lines of talented depth for start of season and spend every penny they have.

If they waited - I can almost assure you we see better players traded at deadline for two high round draft picks for Eller - especially with the expansion, etc,

There will be teams getting much better for the playoff push in a buyers market - but caps won't be attending that sale because their pockets will be empty.

Caps front office needs to stop worrying about being most complete in October... but start worrying about being most complete and at their best end of season. Cups aren't won for best first half of seasons. If that were the case we'd be a dynasty.

It was a dumb move spending so much and having no cap relief for the entire season. It puts caps at a disadvantage as selling teams want to add prospects or cut cash owed to players. Caps have to now trade equal salary for any move and that's just not the smartest way to get better as a team. This is a team who won the Presidents Trophy last year returning their entire top 6 and defense - and the vezina winning goalie - yet still overreacted by making a dumb trade for eller just to be "a more complete and deep team" on game #1. Caps should be trying to be more complete and deep deeper into the season.

If Caps had Ellers cap and instead had Sanford or Connolly playing each night - caps would have had enough cap room to trade for ANY player in NHL at deadline because no player would be owed 3.5 the last part of the season. It would of been a good option to have at least -but instead Caps can't even add a ice girl because they have no cap.

 

[twabby]

Prices for trades at the deadline are typically much steeper from what I recall. Also TDL acquisitions have less time to gel with the team than offseason acquisitions. I'd rather upgrade in the offseason because 3C was a clear need and everyone knew it. Whether or not Eller is the right solution remains to be seen. Recent results are positive.

 

[SpinningEdge]

Prices for trades at the deadline are typically much steeper from what I recall. Also TDL acquisitions have less time to gel with the team than offseason acquisitions.

Look at past cup winners and the players they've traded for mid season or at/around deadline. Tons of big moves.

Yes, it is usually a sellers market at deadline - but this year with expansion, etc and a lot of bad teams and a lot of good teams (years past up to 20-25 teams were still in playoff hunt) it will probably be a huge buyers market this deadline.

 

[twabby]

They should still look to add at the TDL this year, but going 75% of the year without a clear solution at 3C just to see what is available at the TDL doesn't seem wise either.

 

[Revelation]

They should still look to add at the TDL this year, but going 75% of the year without a clear solution at 3C just to see what is available at the TDL doesn't seem wise either.

Beagle would have been a clear upgrade over their 3C from last year when they were far and away best team in the league

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

The better option would be to wait until deadline to add a missing piece - not trade two second rd picks for a bad contract just because GMBM freaked out and thought we needed four lines of talented depth for start of season and spend every penny they have.

If they waited - I can almost assure you we see better players traded at deadline for two high round draft picks for Eller - especially with the expansion, etc,

There will be teams getting much better for the playoff push in a buyers market - but caps won't be attending that sale because their pockets will be empty.

Caps front office needs to stop worrying about being most complete in October... but start worrying about being most complete and at their best end of season. Cups aren't won for best first half of seasons. If that were the case we'd be a dynasty.

It was a dumb move spending so much and having no cap relief for the entire season. It puts caps at a disadvantage as selling teams want to add prospects or cut cash owed to players. Caps have to now trade equal salary for any move and that's just not the smartest way to get better as a team. This is a team who won the Presidents Trophy last year returning their entire top 6 and defense - and the vezina winning goalie - yet still overreacted by making a dumb trade for eller just to be "a more complete and deep team" on game #1. Caps should be trying to be more complete and deep deeper into the season.

If Caps had Ellers cap and instead had Sanford or Connolly playing each night - caps would have had enough cap room to trade for ANY player in NHL at deadline because no player would be owed 3.5 the last part of the season. It would of been a good option to have at least -but instead Caps can't even add a ice girl because they have no cap.

The prices are even more inflated at the TDL because the playoff teams are already 95% identified by that time. What did GMBM add in the previous seasons at the TDL? Tim Gleason and Mike Weber?

You seize opportunities to improve your team when they present themselves, whether it is during the summer or at the TDL. I bet a player like Eller would've fetched an even higher price at the TDL, considering how coveted centre depth is in this league.

 

[SpinningEdge]

The prices are even more inflated at the TDL because the playoff teams are already 95% identified by that time. What did GMBM add in the previous seasons at the TDL? Tim Gleason and Mike Weber?

You seize opportunities to improve your team when they present themselves, whether it is during the summer or at the TDL. I bet a player like Eller would've fetched an even higher price at the TDL, considering how coveted centre depth is in this league.

We won't know until this deadline - but I think this deadline is shaping up to be one of the best times in recent memory to be a buyer.

 

[twabby]

Eller picked up his first two point game of the season last night and his line was absolutely dominant. Eller for the year is the Capitals top shot-attempt player at 60% (technically he's behind Vrana who is at 61.38%, but Vrana has only played 10 games).

The bottom 6 is doing their job right now and a lot of that has to do with Eller being responsible when he is in his own zone, but otherwise completely dominating the puck in the offensive zone. The first 20 games or so lacked much creativity in the offensive zone but the past 10 have been great. It seems like the problem is now the top 6 not clicking.

 

[RandyHolt]

Good stuff SpinningEdge. Indeed we have largely forgone using young players in the cup run era. This year we finally see the recognition that it has not helped at all, and it stifles the pipe. Of course, one could argue we had nothing in the pipe noteworthy, but fact remains we rarely had a roster spot, cap room, nor significant injuries in the forward ranks over the past 5 years or so.

Maybe it's likely just expansion that is making GMBM look at younger players this year, but its long overdue. #CopyCatPitt

 

[Hivemind]

We won't know until this deadline - but I think this deadline is shaping up to be one of the best times in recent memory to be a buyer.

What makes you think that?

 

[Hivemind]

I made the comparison between Eller and Joel Ward previously, and I think the recent results are beginning to bear that out. Eller has been doing the little things, and the points are going to start to come. Especially now that he's playing with wingers that can snipe a corner.