Eh, he can be overrated at times, but there's a bunch of people who try to overcorrect the other way and go too far. He was a top 10 player for a large portion of his time in Colorado and arguably the best for a short window, which is roughly where Kucherov has slotted the past few years. It's not like this is a bad comparison for him to be winning.
Kucherov vs Peter Forsberg
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Eh, he can be overrated at times, but there's a bunch of people who try to overcorrect the other way and go too far. He was a top 10 player for a large portion of his time in Colorado and arguably the best for a short window, which is roughly where Kucherov has slotted the past few years. It's not like this is a bad comparison for him to be winning.
The Tourist
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Similar to Jagr, in the current no touching league you wouldn't be able to knock Forsberg off the puck. He used to control the puck behind the net while wearing two opposing players on his back.
A prime Forsberg and Jagr would be unstoppable in the current NHL.
A prime Forsberg and Jagr would be unstoppable in the current NHL.
Rengorlex
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Wouldn't the ability to handle physical punishment become less useful today? It's always the DPE, where every skilled player would at the bare minimum be the equilevant of Connor McDavid today, while also the players who thrived in physical play would unstoppable 150 point juggernauts.
the slippery,high IQ things he does is bananas.. Forsberg had that too not as much...
but you probably wouldn't get the puck off Forsberg in today's cupcake league... hitting will be gone in 20 years probably
The Tourist
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That's an interesting argument to make. Hey, I know you were good when defenders could get away with anything short of murder on the ice but now that the defense can't obstruct you, you would be less successful. Alright Forsberg you were able to control the puck with Derian Hatcher hanging on your arm, now try doing it with nobody hanging on your arm. I bet you can't.
If he could dominate with that going on I think he would do alright in a league where if you put your stick parallel to a players hands or use your free hand it's an automatic penalty.
There's a reason a 43 yr old Jagr who could barely move was able to put up 66 points in 79 games in the modern NHL. When you aren't wearing the other team it's a little easier to move around and be successful.
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Rengorlex
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Every other player had to deal with that too.
Yeah, the DPE was rough. The average defenceman today is also much better at angling, skating, gap control and stick checking than they were then, not to even mention the goaltending and systems play. Goes both ways, as always. Ultimately, achievements are achievements. Either you did it or didn't. I don't find very convincing fantasies about how someone would've been the best in the world if x and y and z. It's like saying that McDavid would break Gretzky's records in the 80s. Who cares.
howboutahug
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Bankerguy
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I actually watched a lot of Foppa.
Overall i think he gives u a better chance at winning.
He was a beast in his own end and always had possession. I wish advanced stats were around back then.
He was so special.
If you've never seen him play, imagine a 106 point in 74 game type offensive guy...and when he didnt have the puck imagine peak Kopitar having his best game of the year but more physical. He hounded the puck until he gets it, then u never got it back
Overall i think he gives u a better chance at winning.
He was a beast in his own end and always had possession. I wish advanced stats were around back then.
He was so special.
If you've never seen him play, imagine a 106 point in 74 game type offensive guy...and when he didnt have the puck imagine peak Kopitar having his best game of the year but more physical. He hounded the puck until he gets it, then u never got it back
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Not really as Foppa played at an elite level for 10 straight NHL years out of 11 (11th being the lockout year where he played in Sweden at an elite level)
I Hate Blake Coleman
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Usually in comparisons where players are close, you'd take the healthy guy but Kucherov doesn't even have that. Forsberg was just as good offensively, albeit not as good at scoring goals.
Except in the playoffs he was even better, also better than several of the greatest goal scorers of the past 30 years.
Gurglesons
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Kucherov has the best single season and best playoff run. He’s also young as hell.
I think Foppa in 02-03 is as good as Kucherov's top season and he was just a monster in the playoffs 2 ways year after year.
I think the low scoring era that Foppa played in is fooling some people here.
Gurglesons
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Adjusted numbers put Kucherov’s season above Foppa.
Foppa had less ES points in a few games less.
Kucherov produced on a level in the last two post seasons we haven’t seen since Lemieux with a less talent group than Forsberg IMO.
Those Avs teams and Tampa’s squad the last few years are pretty comparable and I don’t see the Sakic on the Lightning unless Point really kills it moving forward.
Yes Kuch has 128 adjusted points to Foppa's 118 except he played in 82 games Foppa 75, 10 points in the extra 7 games really not much of a difference when you facotr in the enxt best season for Kuch is 102,100 (2 games missed each season),93 then 74 and 72.
for Foppa the next best seasons are 112,110 (78 GP),105 (72 GP),95 (73 GP), 89 and 87 so for Kuch the high shooting % of him and his 2 linemates wasn't sustainable and more lucky than Foppa who played at or near his peak level for longer.
Kuch had 80 ESP to Foppa's 73 and Foppa missed 7 games so really zero difference here.
that's great and Foppa has led playoff scoring 2 times in his career and was probably better than Sakic in the playoffs in their overlapping years for the Avs in the playoffs.
Sakic 147-75-88-163 +9 88 ESP
Forsberg 133-57-97-154 +47 101 ESP
They are comparable but they are also different.
Those 2 30 point season are very impressive but that doesn't top the playoff career Forsberg has either as he is arguably the best forward in the playoffs during his NHL career.
NHL Stats
Kucherov to his credit is on his way to the same feat as well depending how everything plays out, at least offensively.
ES scoring was significantly lower in ‘03 (1.93 ES GPG vs. 2.40 ES GPG) Forsberg’s ES scoring was definitely better relative to the league.
ES points leaders ‘03:
Forsberg: 73
Thornton: 65
Murray: 63
Hejduk: 63
Demitra: 57
ES points leaders ‘19:
McDavid: 81
Kucherov: 80
Kane: 80
Draisaitl: 73
Gaudreau: 72
And that’s with Forsberg missing games.
ES points per 60 in ‘03:
Forsberg: 4.01
Hejduk: 3.10
Thornton: 2.99
Havlat: 2.99
Daze: 2.99
ES points per 60 in ‘19:
Kucherov: 3.62
McDavid: 3.32
Marner: 3.23
Kane: 3.17
Gaudreau: 3.16
Kucherov was certainly better on the PP which made his overall production a bit better relative to the league, although that difference is largely eliminated once games played is accounted for. Meanwhile, Forsberg was certainly the better play driver and defensive player.
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Gurglesons
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Difference being the talent in 2002-03 and the talent in 18-19 pretty obviously by what you posted.
Gurglesons
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Kucherov is the best playoff player in the league since he entered. During that time some of the all time greats of his era underperformed him.
Forsberg had a top three playoff performer on his own team. Usually playing in front of him.
Compare the talent when Forsberg was the best in the league versus Kucherov. Forsberg is 100% overrated when it comes to dominance as pointed out above it came in a season where Daze and Havlat were top five producers.
No it doesn’t work that way. Top end talent might explain the gap in the leaderboards but it doesn’t explain away scoring near identical points per game and significantly better points per 60 in a year that was much harder to score in at ES. You used adjusted stats before so I’m not sure how you can dismiss that considering it’s the same premise.
Gurglesons
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How does it not work that way? Forsberg outproduced a bunch of no names and Thornton. He took advantage of a weak field.
Kucherov outproduced what could potentially be the best player in the last thirty years when all is said and done and prime Kane who was every bit as offensively talented as Forsberg.
Kucherov didn’t outproduce McDavid at ES though in total points or per game, and tied Kane in points. You’re brushing off the fact that the difference between Forsberg and the field is much greater, especially when games played is factored in. The field could improve significantly and he would still be ahead.
Also, you’re still ignoring the second part for some reason. Again, Forsberg had almost the same ES PPG and much better P/60 in a league that was harder to score in at ES. The top end talent has little effect on league scoring rates. Scoring the same rate in a league that is harder to score in is better. It’s pretty simple.
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You’re overrating Kucherov’s playoffs based on points totals without accounting for his games played being quite high the past two years, including play-in games in ‘20. The playoffs have also been higher scoring. The past two years, Kucherov had 66 points in 48 games for a 1.38 PPG. The two seasons Forsberg led the league in playoff scoring he had 51 points in 39 games for a 1.31 PPG.
Meanwhile, the average GPG in Kucherov’s seasons was 2.73, while the average GPG in Forsberg’s was 2.54. Adjusted for Kucherov’s average league scoring would put Forsberg at 1.41 PPG, slightly ahead of Kucherov.
And as for teammates, the Avalanche scored 110 goals in those two seasons, meaning Forsberg had a hand in 46.4% of them. The Bolts scored 152 goals in their two seasons, meaning Kucherov had a hand in 43.4% of them.
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