Kris Letang's playoffs

[Rodgerwilco]

Member when Pens fans were trying to argue he was still valuable despite his extensive injury history and so many concerns of his defensive play came in a small period of time?

I MEMBER!

Do you 'Member when Kris Letang was the best defenseman on a Stanley Cup winning team in 2016, too?

 

[tarheelhockey]

Check out the :04 mark of that vid- tell me what Letangs options are?

Go D to D with Dumo on his forehand and an acre of ice OR to Crosby on the wall with little speed on his backhand with a player in front and behind him?

What would you choose? Would you choose a safe play knowing that you were likely gassed and needed a change?

Crosby has to reach for the pass (bc it wasn't a good one) and when he tries to corral it, the backchecking Kuzi knocks it off his stick.

This is like blaming a WR for catching a pass and immediately getting crunched and the ball popping up in the air for an easy interception. You have to ask yourself: why'd the QB throw it to a guy basically blanketed when he had a running back wide the freak open in the flat underneath?

I strongly disagree. The Pens were running a breakout pattern that naturally involved Crosby being the primary point of attack.

Watch Hornqvist loop ahead of Crosby and then cut to the middle. He’s pushing the Caps defenseman back and threatening center, opening a vertical and horizontal lane for the trailing Crosby to fill.

It’s fair to say that Letang has an option to move the puck over to Dumoulin, for the purpose of then hitting Hornqvist over center ice. And as you can see, the Caps have read that option and are actively shifting to defend it. Watch Stephenson shade over to the right, tracking Hornqvist to deny that passing lane. As the camera pans left, note that Niskanen has also shaded right, tracking the Hornqvist option, and is just stepping back over to center himself again. What Letang is seeing there is a Caps defense that’s shifting to his left, aligning themselves to deny that Dumoulin-Hornqvist connection which is building speed through center ice.

That leaves the Caps LD on an island against Crosby, who has filled the vacuum that Hornqvist created on the right wing. If Crosby handles Letang’s pass, the best player in the world is already over the blue line with space and time to make a play. That’s what makes it safe for Letang to scurry to the bench — his replacement can simply step into the void behind Crosby, and provide instant support at the blue line.

The one thing Crosby can NOT do safely here is handle the puck to his left — because Kuznetsov has read the play and is already coming over to help close off the center lane. That half-step on the play is what got Kuznetsov close enough to get a stick on the loose puck when Crosby bobbled it, leading to the turnover and a full-speed rush coming the other way.

So no, not like a QB throwing into traffic. This is like a WR getting a hand on the ball and deflecting it upward. In that split-second, having already missed his offensive opportunity, he creates a play for the defense that can potentially turn the entire game.

If you absolutely HAVE to blame a defenseman on this play, watch Dumoulin’s reaction to the turnover. He’s got a wide-angle view of the sequence, can clearly see Crosby struggling with the puck and is well positioned to cut off the counterattack. But instead of a pivot to the inside, where he would actually have had a step on Kuznetsov, he makes a long slow loop to his left, effectively taking himself entirely out of the play. That’s a tired-legs, tired-brain decision which made the difference between a chaotic scramble and a clean breakaway.

 

[SouthGeorge]

Member when Pens fans were trying to argue he was still valuable despite his extensive injury history and so many concerns of his defensive play came in a small period of time?

I MEMBER!

I remember because I was screaming to package him and Fleury

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

I strongly disagree. The Pens were running a breakout pattern that naturally involved Crosby being the primary point of attack.

Watch Hornqvist loop ahead of Crosby and then cut to the middle. He’s pushing the Caps defenseman back and threatening center, opening a vertical and horizontal lane for the trailing Crosby to fill.

It’s fair to say that Letang has an option to move the puck over to Dumoulin, for the purpose of then hitting Hornqvist over center ice. And as you can see, the Caps have read that option and are actively shifting to defend it. Watch Stephenson shade over to the right, tracking Hornqvist to deny that passing lane. As the camera pans left, note that Niskanen has also shaded right, tracking the Hornqvist option, and is just stepping back over to center himself again. What Letang is seeing there is a Caps defense that’s shifting to his left, aligning themselves to deny that Dumoulin-Hornqvist connection which is building speed through center ice.

That leaves the Caps LD on an island against Crosby, who has filled the vacuum that Hornqvist created on the right wing. If Crosby handles Letang’s pass, the best player in the world is already over the blue line with space and time to make a play. That’s what makes it safe for Letang to scurry to the bench — his replacement can simply step into the void behind Crosby, and provide instant support at the blue line.

The one thing Crosby can NOT do safely here is handle the puck to his left — because Kuznetsov has read the play and is already coming over to help close off the center lane. That half-step on the play is what got Kuznetsov close enough to get a stick on the loose puck when Crosby bobbled it, leading to the turnover and a full-speed rush coming the other way.

So no, not like a QB throwing into traffic. This is like a WR getting a hand on the ball and deflecting it upward. In that split-second, having already missed his offensive opportunity, he creates a play for the defense that can potentially turn the entire game.

If you absolutely HAVE to blame a defenseman on this play, watch Dumoulin’s reaction to the turnover. He’s got a wide-angle view of the sequence, can clearly see Crosby struggling with the puck and is well positioned to cut off the counterattack. But instead of a pivot to the inside, where he would actually have had a step on Kuznetsov, he makes a long slow loop to his left, effectively taking himself entirely out of the play. That’s a tired-legs, tired-brain decision which made the difference between a chaotic scramble and a clean breakaway.

That breakout is a common component to the Pens attack- the Caps have seen it a billion times hence why Trotz finally decided to develop half a brain and set the trap on the side that Crosby is going to.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Sully preached to everyone: attack weak side (because thats uh how you beat the trap before dumping it in)

The proper play in this sequence was to either: go weak side to Dumo and he dumps it or Letang to slam it in himself and ring it around behind the net to the awaiting Guentzel/Horny with speed coming

The absolute LAST place to go is where all the bodies are. Crosby was NOT on an island as he had a guy in front and then Kuny behind . Letang could have given a shoulder fake to the right and open up the left side more for himself or his partner.

The "QB" in this case made the defense's job easier as he telegraphed it. By the time the puck got there Crosby is swarmed (even if he catches it clean)

 

[Pez68]

It was a risky pass, at a poor angle, on a guy's backhand.... And that's if you put it on his tape, which Letang didn't. Even if it connects, Crosby has a defenseman who has him sealed on the wall, and a forward sealing him from the middle. He's going nowhere.

That's a pass you shouldn't make, and a poor decision. Everyone on the ice saw he was going to Crosby, too. The smart play is moving it to Dumoulin, who had the entire left side of the ice to himself.

 

[tarheelhockey]

That breakout is a common component to the Pens attack- the Caps have seen it a billion times hence why Trotz finally decided to develop half a brain and set the trap on the side that Crosby is going to.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Sully preached to everyone: attack weak side (because thats uh how you beat the trap before dumping it in)

The proper play in this sequence was to either: go weak side to Dumo and he dumps it or Letang to slam it in himself and ring it around behind the net to the awaiting Guentzel/Horny with speed coming

The absolute LAST place to go is where all the bodies are. Crosby was NOT on an island as he had a guy in front and then Kuny behind . Letang could have given a shoulder fake to the right and open up the left side more for himself or his partner.

The "QB" in this case made the defense's job easier as he telegraphed it. By the time the puck got there Crosby is swarmed (even if he catches it clean)

I don't know how you can watch that sequence at the moment Letang releases the pass and deceide that "all the bodies" are near Crosby. Stephenson is out of the play, the Caps RD is shading the wrong way and Ovechkin is on the wrong side of the ice. The only two skaters left are the Caps LD, who's falling back on his heels, and Kuznetsov who is at best in a position to provide some back pressure but isn't going to get there before Crosby can make a move or dump the puck.

Again -- if Crosby handles the puck, that play has the Pens over the blue line with ease. The pass was a bit ahead of him, but the guy is the best friggin' hockey player in the world. If he's taking strides rather than floating up the wing, if he plays the puck to the boards instead of directly into a trap, if he does pretty much anything other than what he actually did, we aren't having this conversation.

And I've still yet to hear a single word about Dumoulin's slow ponderous loop to the left when a simple pivot to the inside would have cut off the breakaway.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

I don't know how you can watch that sequence at the moment Letang releases the pass and deceide that "all the bodies" are near Crosby. Stephenson is out of the play, the Caps RD is shading the wrong way and Ovechkin is on the wrong side of the ice. The only two skaters left are the Caps LD, who's falling back on his heels, and Kuznetsov who is at best in a position to provide some back pressure but isn't going to get there before Crosby can make a move or dump the puck.

Again -- if Crosby handles the puck, that play has the Pens over the blue line with ease. The pass was a bit ahead of him, but the guy is the best friggin' hockey player in the world. If he's taking strides rather than floating up the wing, if he plays the puck to the boards instead of directly into a trap, if he does pretty much anything other than what he actually did, we aren't having this conversation.

And I've still yet to hear a single word about Dumoulin's slow ponderous loop to the left when a simple pivot to the inside would have cut off the breakaway.

Frankly I really don't care about Dumo's reaction at this point. The cast has already been set and the play is FUBAR the moment the Caps have possession. Dumo (not exactly the fleetest of foot) likely isn't catching anything anyway

Guess we'll just never agree on how we see this play unfolding. Yes Crosby has great hands but your backhand is still your backhand and if he was a righty he probably catches it cleanly.

I appreciate the solid hockey discussion in the swamp of degenerate postings though

 

[These Are The Days]

Do you 'Member when Kris Letang was the best defenseman on a Stanley Cup winning team in 2016, too?

I seem to remember a Lightning team without its 1C for 6 games, starting goaltender, and 2D on one leg handling him just fine that year. That whopping 1 goal, 1 assist and -3 was sure something else.

The sudden mutiny of Penguins fans does nothing to nullify that Letang had 1 1/2 regular seasons and a brutal playoff run that has been far below his standard since 2016 nor nullify the fact that there were Penguins fans who buried their heads in the sand to the fact that Letang was beginning a sharp downward spiral that was obvious to everyone else and the Penguins fans who were paying close attention. The ones who defended Letang as a valuable piece argued themselves in circles all the way to a 2nd championship WITHOUT Letang. This and Tampa's previous performance against him in the playoffs says FAR more about the rest of his defense-mates and Mike Sullivan's system than it does about Letang.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

And I've still yet to hear a single word about Dumoulin's slow ponderous loop to the left when a simple pivot to the inside would have cut off the breakaway.

I know I said I didn't care, but I can't help myself

My best guess is that if Dumo decides to turn towards the center dot, he'll get an interference call as Kuzy doesn't have the puck just yet

The other explanation is that he was dead tired and doing a complete stop vs a wide loop was easier on his legs. Again lots of speculation on my end

 

[Sentinel]

Yikes, anything related to the Pens and you're all over it. What did this team do to you besides prevent your back to back title?
It's bordering on creepy

Hmmm, it's not like their most anticipated series just ended. Ancient history, I know.

Again, until recently I hadn't had the problems with the Penguins. I like Malkin and I like Kessel. But the fans convinced me otherwise.

 

[These Are The Days]

If you followed Letang's career arc you'd understand that in 2016 he had a significant turnaround and played at a top 5 Dman level. That was the Pens team that ran roughshod over everyone the 2nd half of the season. Letang was perfect for what the Pens were doing and he was doing it well. It wasn't his "defense" that was top notch, it was his passing it and carrying it out of the zone that were paramount to the success

People were surprised and then in early 2017 he reinjured his neck and his play spiraled downward and ended up missing like 1/2 of that season (and the playoffs). This season he started off terribly and then towards the end of the season seemed passable. Not outstanding, but not the defensive nightmare the past 2 weeks either

Yes and I watched him play like he was Erik Karlsson week after week in amazement as if the Pens were built on NHL 18 and playing on easy mode. I'm not saying he didn't thrive when Mike Sullivan proved the "Best defense is a great offense" philosophy I'm saying that Letang used to be able to get the job done here and there if called upon defensively and it was about the time Sullivan took over that I started to notice a decline. He was never Nik Lidstrom but he could usually cover his ass out there if he didn't pinch too hard.

If anything I would argue that Sullivan's system has made him develop some bad habits and too dependent on neutral zone turnovers going for quick breakouts doing the defense for him, quick puck retrieval by a teammate going to his stick for breakout carries or passes and long stays on the offensive side of the ice. Ask him to play actual defense anymore and he's not what he used to be.

For now Letang needs time to get right and he'll have a few needed months off

 

[tarheelhockey]

I know I said I didn't care, but I can't help myself

My best guess is that if Dumo decides to turn towards the center dot, he'll get an interference call as Kuzy doesn't have the puck just yet

The other explanation is that he was dead tired and doing a complete stop vs a wide loop was easier on his legs. Again lots of speculation on my end

He may also have been tracking toward Ovechkin's path, FWIW. I'd probably have tunnel vision too if I saw him coming at me with speed. But my guess is just fatigue, he had the look of a guy who doesn't have the legs left and has that "oh ****" moment where you know you've already missed your opportunity to react in time.

 

[Ogelthorpe]

Letang had a rough series against Washington, and yes some times he makes inexplicable mistakes.
However, the trade him for anything, he has no value, buy him out talk is absurd. Just when you think things can’t sound any dumber, you read some of these comments and

 

[Rodgerwilco]

I seem to remember a Lightning team without its 1C for 6 games, starting goaltender, and 2D on one leg handling him just fine that year. That whopping 1 goal, 1 assist and -3 was sure something else.

The sudden mutiny of Penguins fans does nothing to nullify that Letang had 1 1/2 regular seasons and a brutal playoff run that has been far below his standard since 2016 nor nullify the fact that there were Penguins fans who buried their heads in the sand to the fact that Letang was beginning a sharp downward spiral that was obvious to everyone else and the Penguins fans who were paying close attention. The ones who defended Letang as a valuable piece argued themselves in circles all the way to a 2nd championship WITHOUT Letang. This and Tampa's previous performance against him in the playoffs says FAR more about the rest of his defense-mates and Mike Sullivan's system than it does about Letang.

I forgot that the Penguins won the cup in an unprecendented one series run in 2016, needing to beat only Tampa Bay to win the Stanley Cup......... Seriously though, is that honestly going to be your response? Tampa Bay did an okay job of containing him, so he must have been horrid that year....? lol.

The dude just came off a serious neck surgery and jumped right into playing 25+ minutes a night. Before he was injured in the 16-17 season he put up 34 points in 41 games and was playing very well defensively. In 2015-16 he was very good as well, especially in the playoffs. He put up a career high 67 points in 71 games.

He had a bad series this year in a series where no one outside of Guentzel and Crosby really looked good anyway. It's not like he single-handedly lost the series for the team, as some people have been saying.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

I don't know how you can watch that sequence at the moment Letang releases the pass and deceide that "all the bodies" are near Crosby. Stephenson is out of the play, the Caps RD is shading the wrong way and Ovechkin is on the wrong side of the ice. The only two skaters left are the Caps LD, who's falling back on his heels, and Kuznetsov who is at best in a position to provide some back pressure but isn't going to get there before Crosby can make a move or dump the puck.

Again -- if Crosby handles the puck, that play has the Pens over the blue line with ease. The pass was a bit ahead of him, but the guy is the best friggin' hockey player in the world. If he's taking strides rather than floating up the wing, if he plays the puck to the boards instead of directly into a trap, if he does pretty much anything other than what he actually did, we aren't having this conversation.

And I've still yet to hear a single word about Dumoulin's slow ponderous loop to the left when a simple pivot to the inside would have cut off the breakaway.

Penguins fans never blame Dumoulin for some reason.

 

[These Are The Days]

I forgot that the Penguins won the cup in an unprecendented one series run in 2016, needing to beat only Tampa Bay to win the Stanley Cup......... Seriously though, is that honestly going to be your response? Tampa Bay did an okay job of containing him, so he must have been horrid that year....? lol.

So let's conveniently forget about the performance of a #1 defenseman having to actually play like one because he faced a team with as much fire power as his own -especially when giving the argument that the sum of the Penguins parts at defense was greater than Kris Letang? This isn't about picking and choosing. This is about Letang actually having to play like a #1 defenseman and not a glorified Paul Coffey. He wasn't called upon to be anything else that year except for that series.

Make no mistake... Letang is great at what he is great at but being a shutdown guy he's always needed a little more work

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

Penguins fans never blame Dumoulin for some reason.

I'm not saying Dumo played a 100% clean game, but how would you like to babysit Letang for a billion minutes the last couple seasons?

 

[Novak Djokovic]

Pitts fans will be Petts fans.... Letang has done some awesome things for your franchise, now you dump all over him. Sure, he made a couple of mistakes, but where were the goals from your fwds in this series? Where's Crosby and Malkin? Where was Kessel?

As someone else said, at least Letang scored a goal when the Pens were facing elimination.

I don't know, being on the ice for 13 of the 14 goals scored by PIT in the series?

I'll be the first one to say that Kris Letang was downright horrendous this playoffs, but I also don't understand why people have to diminish someone's play throughout their career. He was fantastic in 2016 playoffs. Absolutely the best defenseman in the SCF for either team.

 

[Rodgerwilco]

So let's conveniently forget about the performance of a #1 defenseman having to actually play like one because he faced a team with as much fire power as his own -especially when giving the argument that the sum of the Penguins parts at defense was greater than Kris Letang? This isn't about picking and choosing. This is about Letang actually having to play like a #1 defenseman and not a glorified Paul Coffey. He wasn't called upon to be anything else that year except for that series.

Make no mistake... Letang is great at what he is great at but being a shutdown guy he's always needed a little more work

What the f*** are you even talking about? He had an incredible post-season with 1 series that was just "decent" that you cherry-picked. lol

That's exactly what it's about... Picking and choosing... Lol I just said that Letang was the best defenseman during the 2016 Stanley Cup run, you PICKED the one series that wasn't the best of the 4 series, and CHOSE to focus on that one, as though it defined the entire post-season.

He played very well up until he had surgery to repair a herniated disk and missed half a season + a cup run... It's not like he had a pull hamstring, or a broken hand, it's a herniated disk, for crying out loud.

How many #1 defensemen come back from a herniated disk surgery and put up an incredible season?

Edit: You can stat-watch numbers all you want, you can take one isolated series (in a run where he was the best defenseman throughout the entire cup run) all you want. But it seems painfully apparent that, outside of series against your team, you likely haven't watched him play a whole lot and are either jumping to conclusions or just going with the flow of what other people say...

 

[Rodgerwilco]

Penguins fans never blame Dumoulin for some reason.

Dumoulin is by far the Penguins most consistent and reliable defensemen, that's why they never blame him. Defensive lapses are rarely his fault.

 

[These Are The Days]

What the **** are you even talking about? He had an incredible post-season with 1 series that was just "decent" that you cherry-picked. lol

That's exactly what it's about... Picking and choosing... Lol I just said that Letang was the best defenseman during the 2016 Stanley Cup run, you PICKED the one series that wasn't the best of the 4 series, and CHOSE to focus on that one, as though it defined the entire post-season.

He played very well up until he had surgery to repair a herniated disk and missed half a season + a cup run... It's not like he had a pull hamstring, or a broken hand, it's a herniated disk, for crying out loud.

How many #1 defensemen come back from a herniated disk surgery and put up an incredible season?

Edit: You can stat-watch numbers all you want, you can take one isolated series (in a run where he was the best defenseman throughout the entire cup run) all you want. But it seems painfully apparent that, outside of series against your team, you likely haven't watched him play a whole lot and are either jumping to conclusions or just going with the flow of what other people say...

Do you remember how dominant the Penguins were that year with Letang or was it all a blur to you? I watched the Penguins run from start to finish because they scared me the most. Why? Because Mike Sullivan had the Penguins playing like the Harlem Globetrotters in March 2016 and they went on some crazy run like winning 16 out of 19 games by margins that weren't even close. And come playoff time they were on another level and carried the flow of the play better than half the time. Letang was nothing short of exceptional in those situations. The Flyers, Capitals and Sharks didn't have a prayer.... one bounce and the Pens have a 3-0 series lead on the Sharks. That's how much better they were. Then they got even better. They won without him the next year. I'm not saying Letang didn't have to work along the way in 2016, I'm saying there was one series where another team attacked the hell out of Pittsburgh instead of the other way around and it was the Lightning. He had to actually defend instead of being another one of the wheels in the juggernaut and it wasn't all that great.

If I'm wrong for judging Letang to how he plays under different circumstance then we agree to disagree and move on. I otherwise cannot make it any more clear. Penguins fans were all part of it but I do not think the realize just how dominant their team really was.

 

[SouthGeorge]

I'm not saying Dumo played a 100% clean game, but how would you like to babysit Letang for a billion minutes the last couple seasons?

It wasn't Dumos fault on that play. Crosby and the play was moving towards the left(his side) It's the RD(Letang) job to have support on that. Not charge up the right side of the ice and leave the middle wide open. That Canes fan has tried every excuse in the book not to blame Letang for that play and failed miserably.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Do you remember how dominant the Penguins were that year with Letang or was it all a blur to you? I watched the Penguins run from start to finish because they scared me the most. Why? Because Mike Sullivan had the Penguins playing like the Harlem Globetrotters in March 2016 and they went on some crazy run like winning 16 out of 19 games by margins that weren't even close. And come playoff time they were on another level and carried the flow of the play better than half the time. Letang was nothing short of exceptional in those situations. The Flyers, Capitals and Sharks didn't have a prayer.... one bounce and the Pens have a 3-0 series lead on the Sharks. That's how much better they were. Then they got even better. They won without him the next year. I'm not saying Letang didn't have to work along the way in 2016, I'm saying there was one series where another team attacked the hell out of Pittsburgh instead of the other way around and it was the Lightning. He had to actually defend instead of being another one of the wheels in the juggernaut and it wasn't all that great.

If I'm wrong for judging Letang to how he plays under different circumstance then we agree to disagree and move on. I otherwise cannot make it any more clear. Penguins fans were all part of it but I do not think the realize just how dominant their team really was.

If that's how you describe "doing nothing in the offensive zone"

 

[These Are The Days]

If that's how you describe "doing nothing in the offensive zone"

Juuussssttttt a bit outside

 

[Maestro84]

Letang WAS a good defencemen, and he was just as valid of a Conn Symthe candidate as Sid was in 2016, but those days are likely gone. He's now become a HUGE liability on the defensive end and his hockey IQ isn't too great either (e.g. some of the turnovers he creates in his own zone are laughable). Overall, he's always been an offensive defencemen, or a fourth forward imo.