Kovalchuk, Heatley, Savard, Coburn, Lehtonen

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Not sure what skillset Kovy has that Parise doesn't but Parise has that "it" factor and we even saw if at an early age, Toews has it as well and to me it's hockey sense.

Kovalchuk is bigger, faster, better and better at stickhandling than Parise. And the biggest difference is that Kovalchuk has one of the best slapshots and one-timers in the entire league, while Parise has no slapshot to speak of.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Kovalchuk is bigger, faster, better and better at stickhandling than Parise. And the biggest difference is that Kovalchuk has one of the best slapshots and one-timers in the entire league, while Parise has no slapshot to speak of.

As of right now, I'd take Parise over Kovalchuk any day.

New Jersey is going to be a different team with their top talent being up front now instead of on the blueline.

Should be interesting to see!

 

[jcbio11]

As of right now, I'd take Parise over Kovalchuk any day.

New Jersey is going to be a different team with their top talent being up front now instead of on the blueline.

Should be interesting to see!

I'd take Kovalchuk over Parise any day of the week and twice on Sunday. And that's not to bash Parise, who is a great player, it's just that Kovalchuk is arguably the best player after the big 3.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I'd take Kovalchuk over Parise any day of the week and twice on Sunday. And that's not to bash Parise, who is a great player, it's just that Kovalchuk is arguably the best player after the big 3.

After watching them both play for 2 months together in NJ, there is no doubt in my mind that Parise is the better player right now. Very similar offensive production (look at their stats for the last 2 seasons), and Parise does all the little things better. Kovalchuk has more "skills," which is why I say he could be better than Parise if he responds well to the right coaching. But he isn't there yet.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

As of right now, I'd take Parise over Kovalchuk any day.

New Jersey is going to be a different team with their top talent being up front now instead of on the blueline.

Should be interesting to see!

NJ's best talent has been up front for a few years now. A couple of years ago, they had Elias-Gomez-Gionta and Parise-Zajac-Langenbrunner as their top 2 lines, with Rafalski and a bunch of plugs on defense.

The interesting part is if John MacLean actually realizes their top talent is all up front, unlike previous coaches.

 

[Epsilon]

Kovalchuk gets a lot of flack for not doing much in the playoffs, and yet why doesn't Parise get the same? He's got 2 series wins in 5 trips (on much better teams) and a 60 point scoring pace.

 

[Tavaresmagicalplay*]

Kovalchuk gets a lot of flack for not doing much in the playoffs, and yet why doesn't Parise get the same? He's got 2 series wins in 5 trips (on much better teams) and a 60 point scoring pace.

Subtract his rookie season and it's a 35 goal, 73 point pace. He wasn't great these playoffs but he's had a couple where he's been their best player.

 

[MS]

Back the the original question -

Lehtonen has been an injury-prone, mediocre goalie and Coburn is a decent #3 defender, so neither of those guys would have been engines in taking that club to elite status. Lehtonen was there until late last year, and if you take the defense/goaltending that club had in 09-10 and add Coburn to it ... it's still pretty mediocre.

Hossa is a better player than Heatley so I don't see how you can say the accident derailed things there.

Waddell screwed up the Savard situation horribly, but even if they keep him they're just a one-line team for a couple more years. Maybe that one line carries them to an extra playoff berth or two, but they were never going to be an elite team.

 

[Lead Role in a Cage]

Who of the players mentioned would actually lead that team and raise the level for the playoffs and, even further, would anyone seriously take charge to actually make a push to win it all? Where is the 200 ft June pedigree? Not anywhere to be seen.

Expensive support players on different locations today, yet together they would have won nothing yesterday forming a Stanley Cup winning core.

 

[Jwads]

Back the the original question -

Lehtonen has been an injury-prone, mediocre goalie and Coburn is a decent #3 defender, so neither of those guys would have been engines in taking that club to elite status. Lehtonen was there until late last year, and if you take the defense/goaltending that club had in 09-10 and add Coburn to it ... it's still pretty mediocre.

Hossa is a better player than Heatley so I don't see how you can say the accident derailed things there.

Waddell screwed up the Savard situation horribly, but even if they keep him they're just a one-line team for a couple more years. Maybe that one line carries them to an extra playoff berth or two, but they were never going to be an elite team.

Heatley was a very good skater prior to the accident. He hurt his knee pretty bad. It's possible that he could have became a much better player then he or Hossa are today.

 

[headsigh]

depends. now? maybe. then? we had like, no depth outside of those guys. One year we had Robitalle playing on the second line. Randy Robitaille.

losing savard was probably a big amount of waddell's numerous screw-ups. Hossa wasn't interested that much in being here. Kovalchuk liked the city, but hated the team and balked at actually getting coached for pretty much the first time in his career. He had all the skill in the world- still does- but until he was traded to NJ, no one really lit his fire. Sure, he'd go out and get his goals (and money), but he was capable of a lot more. Just didn't feel like it.

Lehtonen was mentally a bit... odd.

I can't comment on Heatley because that accident probably has me biased.

The Thrashers, historically, have had a history of making terrible decisions. This is a team who could have had:

-Anze Kopitar
-Dion Phaneuf
-Milan Lucic
-Wojtek Wolski or Travis Zajac

that's just their missed draft picks. Our lineup going into this year could have easily been:

Kovalchuk-Savard-Heatley/Hossa
Kane-Kopitar-Little
Lucic-Slater-Ladd
Thorburn-Cormier-Dawes

Phaneuf-Bogosian
Enstrom-Hainsey
Oduya-Sopel

Mason
Pavelec


that's just an example. that's also 100% cap hell if we're taking into account current contracts, but still. that could contend in the east, west, any division.

Atlanta Thrashers: missed opportunities everywhere.

Now I gotta lay down, typing that made me depressed.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Subtract his rookie season and it's a 35 goal, 73 point pace. He wasn't great these playoffs but he's had a couple where he's been their best player.

shouldn't parise always be their best player?

 

[Tavaresmagicalplay*]

shouldn't parise always be their best player?

Has Crosby been the penguins best player in every series he's ever played in? Of course not. In theory your best player should always be your best player, that's obvious. It just doesn't always happen. If it did the best teams on paper would always win the stanley cup. Parise has carried more than his fair load in the playoffs. I don't see much of a point to be made that he's an underachiever.

 

[tony d]

A first line of Kovy, Savard and Heatley would have been magic. Still I doubt that the team would have reached the success of a Pittsburgh or Chicago.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

shouldn't parise always be their best player?

No, a 35 point rookie parise should not have been a better player than Elias, gomez, langenbrunner, or gionta.

Parise had only been an elite player for 2 seasons - that is why he doesn't get slack for the playoffs yet.

And for what it's worth, parise was the us's best forward on the olympics, while kovalchuk was pretty invisible for Russia

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

A first line of Kovy, Savard and Heatley would have been magic. Still I doubt that the team would have reached the success of a Pittsburgh or Chicago.

Atlanta fans said Koby usually carried the second line while savard played with either heatley or hossa. They only played together on the pp.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

A first line of Kovy, Savard and Heatley would have been magic. Still I doubt that the team would have reached the success of a Pittsburgh or Chicago.

And after paying their salaries, who's left?

 

[mobilus]

And for what it's worth, parise was the us's best forward on the olympics, while kovalchuk was pretty invisible for Russia

In all fairness, the Russian coach was way out of his league, and didn't know how to handle the talent on that team. Against Canada in the quarters, Datsyuk, Semin and Ovie were all close to invisible. Watch Kovalchuk's setup on Afinogenov's goal in the second period of that game, picking up around the 15:25 mark where Grebeshov blows his pass to Kovalchuk. Kovalchuk's talent is stunning.

I get the feeling his move out of Atlanta shows he's matured enough to realize one guy can't win anything in this league. Going to Jersey and their history of defensive hockey also suggests a willingness of his part to change parts of his game. Yes he wanted his money, but he's put himself in an environment where he'll be forced to adapt (probably first time ever). He has all the skill in the world, it seems like he's willing to share in order to win.

Just my take, sorry to drift off topic.

 

[Kimota]

They'd be a better team for sure, but I doubt they'd be a Cup contender. My best guess is a fringe playoff team. Kovy, Heatley, and Savard were great on one side of the ice and Coburn pretty good defensively, but the team was majorly lacking in leadership, depth, and team defense, and that would have to be addressed before they became anything more than a regular bubble playoff team.

It was amazing watching Kovalchuk when he first came to NJ. The man tried really hard to adjust to a team game and really wanted to learn how to be at least an okay defensive player, but he honestly had no idea how to do either. It was like the man was never coached in his life.

They would be a playoff team easily but there's a serious lack of leadership there. Maybe if you add a guy like Shane Doan to the group they would have a fighting chance to be contenders. But Kovy and Heatley are one dimensional and selfish and Savard is no game breaker.

 

[Sky04]

Kovy>Parise, I noticed kovy all playoff long last season, parise... not so much.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Kovy>Parise, I noticed kovy all playoff long last season, parise... not so much.

It's a lot easier to be noticed when you are being checked by Kimmo Timonen than when you are being checked by Chris Pronger.

Its also easier to be noticed when you are allowed to play the full powerplay and are the featured player on the PP.

All things considered, I think the two men both played equally "okay but not good enough" in the playoffs.

 

[JimEIV]

In all fairness, the Russian coach was way out of his league, and didn't know how to handle the talent on that team. Against Canada in the quarters, Datsyuk, Semin and Ovie were all close to invisible. Watch Kovalchuk's setup on Afinogenov's goal in the second period of that game, picking up around the 15:25 mark where Grebeshov blows his pass to Kovalchuk. Kovalchuk's talent is stunning.

I get the feeling his move out of Atlanta shows he's matured enough to realize one guy can't win anything in this league. Going to Jersey and their history of defensive hockey also suggests a willingness of his part to change parts of his game. Yes he wanted his money, but he's put himself in an environment where he'll be forced to adapt (probably first time ever). He has all the skill in the world, it seems like he's willing to share in order to win.

Just my take, sorry to drift off topic.

That is an interesting perspective that I don’t think I have heard anyone touch upon.

 

[Magnus Fulgur]

Atlanta has brought everything upon itself:

1.) They should have never let Heatley buy and drive that damn car. Way too powerful for a kid on windy hilly streets, and he couldn't resist it (he had rear-ended someone in the same area the year before). After the tragedy, Atlanta forbid players to own sportscars. Now they all have big SUVs and large BMWs.

2.) Kari Lehtonen - they needed to keep this kid in check. He was wild, out of control, and didn't look after himself. Now he has fundamental core muscle issues. Nice going, Ray Bear and Don Waddell.

3.) Kovalchuk - he wasn't coached right, and if you have a talent like that you need a.) a great two way center (not Savard or Holik, Rucchin, Kapanen, or Metropolit!!!) The only guy he ever played great hockey with in Atlanta was Keith Tkachuk. Say no more. Anyhow, you've got to have strong D if you're going with flashy forwards.

4.) Did I mention you need strong D? Havelid was it until they got Enstrom and Oduya. Waddell always was trying to get Pronger to come to Atlanta, but you can't attract the big fish if you've got no bait.

5.) Outside of Pasi Nurminen and one strong season from Kari, they never had dependable goaltending, and brought in one washed up guy or even ECHL guy after the other. Disgraceful.

6.) Coaching has been an absolute joke. Now we finally have a coach that is smart, tough, and sober. We've never had all three.

7.) Atrocious drafting, which has improved greatly over the past few years and Waddell needs a lot of credit for that. Our Swedish scouting kicks butt.

8.) Bad coaching is why Coburn never fit in or was happy - true of many other vets and prospects too. I saw Coburn in practices - he absolutely wanted nothing to do with the team or the coaches, especially McCrimmon for some odd reason.

9.) A bad product leads to bad attendance. Bad attendance leads to low morale, which leads to more bad product.

10.) Savard left for personal reasons, and the team was not happy with the fact that his performance on the road was statistically horrendous on a consistent basis - probably linked to his personal issues, so there was nothing that could be done. Except, um...not replace him with freakin' Steve Rucchin!!!

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

8.) Bad coaching is why Coburn never fit in or was happy - true of many other vets and prospects too. I saw Coburn in practices - he absolutely wanted nothing to do with the team or the coaches, especially McCrimmon for some odd reason.

that last point about mccrimmon might say more about coburn than atlanta's coaching, though i agree it has looked pretty awful the last ten years. but mccrimmon has been a highly regarded and sought-after assistant coach for a long time. he works for detroit now and jimmy devellano/ken holland don't sign bad coaches.

he has also been considered as a future head coach.

McCrimmon was a popular assistant in Atlanta, where Ilya Kovalchuk, Bobby Holik, Marian Hossa and Mark Recchi all made pitches for him to get the head job after Bob Hartley was fired at the beginning of the 2007-08 season.

http://blog.mlive.com/snapshots/2008/07/wings_hire_brad_mccrimmon_as_a.html

When I spoke with Ken Holland last week, he said Brad McCrimmon was Mike Babcock's No. 1 choice to hire as an assistant coach. Here's what we know about the Red Wings -- if they have a top choice, they usually get him. McCrimmon was no different. He agreed to terms on a deal to move from Atlanta to Detroit to be an assistant under Babcock and he told me today that he expects to sign the deal next week.

It's a great fit for McCrimmon who was a finalist for the head coaching job in Atlanta that ultimately went to John Anderson. McCrimmon turned down a chance to become the Thrashers head coach when the position was offered around the All-Star break. The two sides couldn't agree on guarantees beyond last season. But he has no regrets with how things went down with the Thrashers.

"You go in, do your best and try and help any way you can," McCrimmon said today. "At the end of the day, decisions are made."

It's not the head coaching job McCrimmon desires and will eventually get, but Detroit is a great opportunity and perfect fit for the former NHL defenseman. In Paul MacLean and McCrimmon, Babcock now has former NHL players who played on both sides of the ice. One year ago, McCrimmon and Marian Hossa were about to embark on a roller coaster season with the Thrashers. Now they're reunited in Detroit - the Stanley Cup favorites.

"It would have been hard to put all that together," said McCrimmon who summed it all up this way: "One door closes and another one opens."

http://www.sportingnews.com/blog/ccustance.tsn/160237/

 

[Epsilon]

that last point about mccrimmon might say more about coburn than atlanta's coaching, though i agree it has looked pretty awful the last ten years. but mccrimmon has been a highly regarded and sought-after assistant coach for a long time. he works for detroit now and jimmy devellano/ken holland don't sign bad coaches.

he has also been considered as a future head coach.



http://blog.mlive.com/snapshots/2008/07/wings_hire_brad_mccrimmon_as_a.html



http://www.sportingnews.com/blog/ccustance.tsn/160237/

Good enough for Ken Holland, Mike Babcock, Mike Illitch, and the Detroit Red Wings, but not good enough for Don Waddell. This is pretty much the Thrashers franchise history (and this thread) in a nutshell.