Kovalchuk, Heatley, Savard, Coburn, Lehtonen

[Stephen]

If the Heatley accident didn't happen and this core group had been allowed to gel in Atlanta as a unit the way teams in Tampa, Chicago, Washington and Pittsburgh have come together, how good do you think the Thrashers could have been this decade? Obviously there were issues with Lehtonen's health, and maybe adjustments would have been made in net, but generally, that's a pretty good base to start with. With some better depth, would the Thrashers have been good enough to be perennial contenders or even have a cup by now?

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[TheDevilMadeMe]

They'd be a better team for sure, but I doubt they'd be a Cup contender. My best guess is a fringe playoff team. Kovy, Heatley, and Savard were great on one side of the ice and Coburn pretty good defensively, but the team was majorly lacking in leadership, depth, and team defense, and that would have to be addressed before they became anything more than a regular bubble playoff team.

It was amazing watching Kovalchuk when he first came to NJ. The man tried really hard to adjust to a team game and really wanted to learn how to be at least an okay defensive player, but he honestly had no idea how to do either. It was like the man was never coached in his life.

 

[BraveCanadian]

They don't have the money to keep those guys together.

 

[John Flyers Fan]

E

They'd be a better team for sure, but I doubt they'd be a Cup contender. My best guess is a fringe playoff team. Kovy, Heatley, and Savard were great on one side of the ice and Coburn pretty good defensively, but the team was majorly lacking in leadership, depth, and team defense, and that would have to be addressed before they became anything more than a regular bubble playoff team.

It was amazing watching Kovalchuk when he first came to NJ. The man tried really hard to adjust to a team game and really wanted to learn how to be at least an okay defensive player, but he honestly had no idea how to do either. It was like the man was never coached in his life.

Kovalchuk took way too much heat for the playoff loss last year. He was the Devils 2nd best forward and third best player in the series.

 

[Epsilon]

Good and bad teams start at the top. That franchise had no chance for sustained success with their ownership circus and Don Waddell at the helm of management.

 

[flerd_trandle]

It was like the man was never coached in his life.

Have you seen the list of coaches the Thrashers have had over their lifetime? It's not a very distinguished list.

(And before someone tries to defend Bob Hartley, ask yourself why no one else has offered him a coaching job.)

 

[Maupin Fan]

They'd be a better team for sure, but I doubt they'd be a Cup contender. My best guess is a fringe playoff team. Kovy, Heatley, and Savard were great on one side of the ice and Coburn pretty good defensively, but the team was majorly lacking in leadership, depth, and team defense, and that would have to be addressed before they became anything more than a regular bubble playoff team.

It was amazing watching Kovalchuk when he first came to NJ. The man tried really hard to adjust to a team game and really wanted to learn how to be at least an okay defensive player, but he honestly had no idea how to do either. It was like the man was never coached in his life.

Very true. I noticed the same thing and said it before. The effort was definitely there and it was almost (but not really after seeing him dog it in Atlanta for so long) sad because you could tell he truly had no idea what he was doing.

 

[tarheelhockey]

They don't have the money to keep those guys together.

Yes, they do.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

E

Kovalchuk took way too much heat for the playoff loss last year. He was the Devils 2nd best forward and third best player in the series.

I didn't mention the playoffs once in my post. By the time the playoffs rolled around, Kovalchuk was better integrated into the team, but he was still not exactly good at using his teammates, playing defense, or cycling.

 

[John Flyers Fan]

I didn't mention the playoffs once in my post. By the time the playoffs rolled around, Kovalchuk was better integrated into the team, but he was still not exactly good at using his teammates, playing defense, or cycling.

Agreed, although I think part of that was Lemaire's fault. Letting him play the entire two minutes of every power play is a very un-Devil like thing to do. Obviously part of it is that the Devils had a weak group of power play defenseman.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Agreed, although I think part of that was Lemaire's fault. Letting him play the entire two minutes of every power play is a very un-Devil like thing to do. Obviously part of it is that the Devils had a weak group of power play defenseman.

Yeah, the way Lemaire used Kovalchuk was really weird. He's always been a coach where every single player had to buy into the system and nobody was allowed to be an individualist. IThis is the guy who basically ran his former linemate Guy Lafleur out of Montreal for not buying into his system.

While the Devils didn't "trap" last year really, they definitely ran a tight system. But then Kovalchuk comes in and is given total free reign and allowed to play the whole PP every PP. It was weird and led to Devils fans speculating that Lemaire was given orders from above on what to do with Kovalchuk.

On the other hand, Kovalchuk had nothing but praise for Lemaire actually teaching him how to do the little things in hockey (which supports the idea that Kovy was never really coached in Atlanta).

 

[Peter Sidorkiewicz]

If the Heatley accident didn't happen and this core group had been allowed to gel in Atlanta as a unit the way teams in Tampa, Chicago, Washington and Pittsburgh have come together, how good do you think the Thrashers could have been this decade? Obviously there were issues with Lehtonen's health, and maybe adjustments would have been made in net, but generally, that's a pretty good base to start with. With some better depth, would the Thrashers have been good enough to be perennial contenders or even have a cup by now?

Some personal thoughts:

Lehtonen - The Thrashers were patient with him long enough. He just didn't have the work ethic off the ice to get his body right and eventually you can't carry a $3m per season goalie whom is always going to break down. Lehtonen has the talent to be as good as Lundqvist.

Coburn - Played awful in Atlanta and was unmotivated when assigned to AHL. However obviously Waddell gave up on him too early as he only had played one season.

Savard - A big Waddell stuff up. After proving his worth as an all star center, all Savard was looking for was fair value in a new contract. He was willing to stay in Atlanta as he was grateful that the team rescued him from a difficult time in Calgary. However Waddell baulked at the $5m per season asking price so Savard walked. Waddell then thought fit to spend $3m on Steve Rucchin as Savard's replacement (who hardly played, then retired) and another $2m on a couple of fringe defenseman - Vitaly Vishnevski was one of them, I think.

Heatley - If he stayed he would of eventually become Thrashers captain (was ahead of Kovalchuk in the pecking order). However as history dictated (Ottawa situation) he would of eventually got fed up with the lack of direction in the team and asked for a trade/walked when he became an UFA.

Hossa - Didn't really show any hint about re-signing in his last season in Atlanta and as history dictated was pretty driven about being on a team to win a cup. Obviously that wasn't going to happen in Atlanta.

Kovalchuk - He geniuinely liked the city but came to realise that success wasn't going to happen as Waddell had failed to improved the team after their only playoff performance as the team went backwards really bad. He also didn't like John Anderson as coach. The comment about being never coached is valid. Kovy has a very good work ethic but was never asked to play D in Atlanta.

In summary, Atlanta failed to become a cup contender because of a few key things. Off the ice, ownership was involved in a bitter legal battle between themselves and that didn't really help the team to attract free agents. Ownership were also very much tight with money and had an internal cap which handcuff Waddell. However when Waddell did spend he was a mixed bag, Holik and Rucchin were big free agent busts, letting go Brunette and Savard (both willing to stay) was stupid. He was decent on the trade front (aside from Coburn deal) picking up Savard, Kozlov and Kubina for next to nothing.
On the ice, Thrashers have been cursed with goaltending issues. I don't care how much talent you have up front if you don't have any consistency in the net you are going to leak goal. Rhodes, Maracle, Hnlicka, Nurminen, Dafoe and Lehtonen couldn't get healthy and as a result backup goalies like Moose Hedberg was asked to play way more than they should and was forced to be a no 1. Also until recently, not enough time and money was spent to improve the defence. Chris Tamer and Yannick Tremblay were an ever present first pairing on defense for Atlanta and when the team acquired Zhitnik, he immediately became the teams no 1 defenseman. They could of definately used better personnel on D.

 

[Jumptheshark]

coburn looked like a bust in thrasherville and some thought they had won the deal when it first happened

 

[John Flyers Fan]

coburn looked like a bust in thrasherville and some thought they had won the deal when it first happened

You don't trade a 6'5 defenseman that can skate like the wind, if you drafted him in the top 10, unless you get a ridiculous return. Just a brutal deal by Waddell, one I am very thankful for.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

coburn looked like a bust in thrasherville and some thought they had won the deal when it first happened

If by "some", you mean Don Waddell, then yes. I don't know of anybody who considered this anything less than a suspect deal at the time. And within a year or two, it was clearly a lot worse than just "suspect". How Mr. Waddell is still employed is quite the mystery.

 

[Big Phil]

I didn't mention the playoffs once in my post. By the time the playoffs rolled around, Kovalchuk was better integrated into the team, but he was still not exactly good at using his teammates, playing defense, or cycling.

Has he ever though? I don't know about you guys, but I've been chuckling all summer long about Kovalchuk's contract controversy. The man just seems to have a knack at not being able to win at all. Honestly, 10 years in the NHL and you have never won a playoff series? The common denominator goes with some other guys too who had long playoff droughts. Marc Savard, Olli Jokinen, etc. Both of these guys have been said to have character issues in the past. Kovalchuk being described as a selfish player is something I have always agreed with.

New Jersey can keep him. Parise is the much better player

 

[seventieslord]

You don't trade a 6'5 defenseman that can skate like the wind, if you drafted him in the top 10, unless you get a ridiculous return. Just a brutal deal by Waddell, one I am very thankful for.

I literally could not believe this deal when it happened. It may have been the worst ever single player for single player swap I ever saw. It was one of those deals that I knew immediately would prove to be brutal... like Raycroft for Rask.

 

[Hardyvan123]

My initial thoughts on this group as a whole even at their peak, and not sure they all would have developed the same if they had stayed together is that they are good to great players but something is missing from their games to make them a Cup contender.

I have the same feelings about the present day Canucks core group but they might have added enough around them to overcome that but as fro the Atlanta group none of the 5 listed has won a Cup and the 6th guy Hossa (who came over for Heatley only won it fro the 1st year last year after his 3rd attempt to free agent on the right team.)

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Has he ever though? I don't know about you guys, but I've been chuckling all summer long about Kovalchuk's contract controversy. The man just seems to have a knack at not being able to win at all. Honestly, 10 years in the NHL and you have never won a playoff series? The common denominator goes with some other guys too who had long playoff droughts. Marc Savard, Olli Jokinen, etc. Both of these guys have been said to have character issues in the past. Kovalchuk being described as a selfish player is something I have always agreed with.

New Jersey can keep him. Parise is the much better player

I agree that Parise is better right now. As does Peter Laviolette apparently - he had Pronger out there in Parise's face every time Parise stepped on the ice. It's a big reason Kovalchuk had so much room to do his thing.

It seems weird, considering Kovalchuk is older, but I do think Kovalchuk has the potential to develop into a better player than Parise, if given the proper coaching - he certainly has a skillset that Parise lacks.

Kovalchuk played with fire in the playoffs last year - you could tell that he really wanted to play winning hockey. He just had no idea how. I really think that adding Kovalchuk made the Devils a worse team last season. But Kovalchuk is sort of a project, and with a long term commitment, he could turn his game around. Maybe.

 

[OrrNumber4]

It isn't as simple as "Kovalchuk and Heatley aren't complete players, therefore they can't be the core of a SC-contender."

Look, maybe if Atlanta keeps those players, they make a few more playoffs, get some better coaches, get a better reputation, and basically force players like Kovalchuk and Heatley to play a more complete game. Maybe being on a winning teams makes them better leaders and franchise players. Both players spent long portions of their careers on weak franchises, in loose (and losing!) systems, with few mentors, where, since hopes of a playoff spot were lost, the goal was collecting nice personal stats.

I will say though, that while Kovalchuk and Heatley had the ability to provide talent on the wings, Savard isn't exactly a franchise center. Coburn is a fine defenseman, but he isn't a cornerstone defenseman. And Lehtonen struggled with injuries, but IMO his talent-level is/was exaggerated.

 

[Tavaresmagicalplay*]

I literally could not believe this deal when it happened. It may have been the worst ever single player for single player swap I ever saw. It was one of those deals that I knew immediately would prove to be brutal... like Raycroft for Rask.

Yeah I don't know if Coburn has the upside for thrasher fans to really be kicking themselves ten years down the road. He's a good top 4 guy but if playing with Kimmo Timonen can make you look good I don't know what can. The guys not a great decision maker and he has a star dman insulating him. He's a good skater, good puck skills but he doesn't have a great breakout pass, isn't that great positionally, isn't overly physically, and really isn't that smart. That said he's 6'5 and he can skate. That alone will keep him as a top 4 dman in the league and give him opportunities to show he can do more. As of now I don't know.

Anyways to answer the thread question, I really don't think that core wins anything, though I don't know how good a Dany Heatley with two healthy knees could have become.

 

[John Flyers Fan]

Yeah I don't know if Coburn has the upside for thrasher fans to really be kicking themselves ten years down the road. He's a good top 4 guy but if playing with Kimmo Timonen can make you look good I don't know what can. The guys not a great decision maker and he has a star dman insulating him. He's a good skater, good puck skills but he doesn't have a great breakout pass, isn't that great positionally, isn't overly physically, and really isn't that smart. That said he's 6'5 and he can skate. That alone will keep him as a top 4 dman in the league and give him opportunities to show he can do more.

Coburn isn't a great passer in the offensive zone, but he makes excellent outlet passes, especially long stretch passes.

 

[Big Phil]

I agree that Parise is better right now. As does Peter Laviolette apparently - he had Pronger out there in Parise's face every time Parise stepped on the ice. It's a big reason Kovalchuk had so much room to do his thing.

It seems weird, considering Kovalchuk is older, but I do think Kovalchuk has the potential to develop into a better player than Parise, if given the proper coaching - he certainly has a skillset that Parise lacks.

Kovalchuk played with fire in the playoffs last year - you could tell that he really wanted to play winning hockey. He just had no idea how. I really think that adding Kovalchuk made the Devils a worse team last season. But Kovalchuk is sort of a project, and with a long term commitment, he could turn his game around. Maybe.

I have said here that in order for him to win he might need to sacrifice a thing or two. He probably won't score 50 goals this year, but that's okay, he may need to focus on other aspects of the game in order to make NJ successful. Whether or not he wants to sacrifice the Sportscenter moments for winning is something we'll just have to see. I found in the playoffs last year he was too much of an individual

 

[God Bless Canada]

Coburn was never going to get it done in Atlanta. His play in his first two years as a pro screamed "I need a change of scenery." While the pressure in Atlanta is pretty low, Coburn was always going to hear the name "Dion Phaneuf" as long as he was in Atlanta, since the Thrashers passed on Phaneuf to take Coburn. (Keep in mind this was in Phaneuf's first two years, which were his best). And Coburn will never be a dominant defenceman. He'll be a wonderful No. 2 or No. 3 for years to come, but not the top-end guy that every Cup champ (except for Carolina) will have.

Lehtonen has the potential to be the best in the game, but he's injury prone, inconsistent and (right now) lacking in confidence. We'll see if he falls into the "change of scenery" category, and is ready to take a quantum leap forward in Dallas, or if his issues are related to Lehtonen, and not Atlanta.

I think Hossa's a better player than Heatley. I'd definitely take Hossa if I'm building a contender. He brings more to the table. The best trait in Heatley's game (goal-scoring) is better than anything that Hossa is great at, but Hossa's been one of the best all-round wingers in the game for a decade, while Heatley's a great goal-scorer.

Atlanta wasn't going to be able to keep Savard. For one thing I don't think they realized just how good Savard was, and frankly, most in the game didn't realize how good Savard was. Most thought he was a Kovalchuk by-product. He certainly was not. And Atlanta's a dog of an organization. They can't keep their stars.

Kovy strikes me as a bad-team player. Zero playoff series wins in eight years doesn't inspire confidence. We'll see if New Jersey might be a better fit, a team where he isn't the best forward on the team. (That honour belongs to Parise). I just don't think Kovalchuk is a guy that you can win with in a key position.

 

[Hardyvan123]

I agree that Parise is better right now. As does Peter Laviolette apparently - he had Pronger out there in Parise's face every time Parise stepped on the ice. It's a big reason Kovalchuk had so much room to do his thing.

It seems weird, considering Kovalchuk is older, but I do think Kovalchuk has the potential to develop into a better player than Parise, if given the proper coaching - he certainly has a skillset that Parise lacks.

Kovalchuk played with fire in the playoffs last year - you could tell that he really wanted to play winning hockey. He just had no idea how. I really think that adding Kovalchuk made the Devils a worse team last season. But Kovalchuk is sort of a project, and with a long term commitment, he could turn his game around. Maybe.

Not sure what skillset Kovy has that Parise doesn't but Parise has that "it" factor and we even saw if at an early age, Toews has it as well and to me it's hockey sense.