kindl 27 points, + 49 over a 82 game season

[Crymson]

LOL how do you come up with this stuff? Overachieving? Babcock has COST us a few games? And which team is not "in the middle" of the playoff race? Seriously, besides Chicago's ridiculous start, which teams are not in the middle? There are no elite teams, just a bunch of mediocre ones. And the Wings happen to be playing like one of the better ones. I mean, come on man! LOL

Not to mention that the Wings are still #1 in man-games lost to injury.

 

[Crymson]

I dunno. The same way I called that Kindl should absolutely be a regular dman and have been proven right? I know what I'm looking at when I watch hockey.

And Anaheim has separated itself nicely from the pack as well. That's just out west, the east has some separation too.

There are absolutely some elite teams. We're just not one of them. Wings have played good to okay the past three games. Great the first game with some Iffy calls. Then two games with occasional good play and some superb goaltending to bail us out. Oh man did it bail us out.

You have very selective memory. Babcock's lineup decisions and lines are very suspect. Until injuries forced him to play Kindl regularly, he was scratched often. He keeps trying to use Brunner on the point for PP's. He's put Cleary out there for overtime but benched Tatar completely. Abby's now stuck with Datsyuk for the end of time despite not producing anything at all for like 12 games in a row.

None of those choices cost the Wings a game? You are blind.

Ah, yes, and clearly Babcock's coaching is responsible for NO VICTORIES AT ALL.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

I don't think we will ever be able to definitely state whether Babcock's tough love or not had any impact on the new Kindl were seeing today as injuries did force him more permanently into the lineup, but we don't know at the same time if Babcock would have slotted him back in eventually if their weren't injuries and we were still winning games.

The important thing is that most players who eventually make it into something special usually seize the opportunities that are given to them, and while the opportunity for Kindl was excessive injuries to the blue line, the great thing is he so far seems to have seized that opportunity. I honestly thought Kindl was trade fodder for the past 3 years, I couldn't have been way more wrong. Watching all our dmen in the lineup right now, Kindl definitely has the highest ceiling out of all of them, I mean there has to be a reason he went 19th overall in the draft. Hopefully with more experience he can approach that ceiling, because while I never thought he'd ever surface as a top 4 in Detroit, the way he is playing lately I think with experience he can actually be a top pairing dman now

Last year, Jakub Kindl scored more points per minute at even strenght than any Red Wings defenseman except White -- despite having non-offensive linemates.

Kindl was doing fine last year in a very limited role with almost no powerplay time until Lidstrom got hurt. He wasn't great.... but you know, if we wasn't unloading that bomb from the point on the PP over the last 10 games, we wouldn't be so impressed with him this year either.

He's playing well because he's getting a chance to play his game -- FINALLY.

And there were people in here who said Lashoff should be playing over Kindl earlier this year when coach benched Kindl after Kronwall and Flip made a stupid play and Babcock blamed Kindl for it.

People go to all lengths to defend the coach, no matter how stupid his decisions are.
One lucky hat trick, and the Detroit media announces that Abdelkader-Datsyuk is a great line.

Amazing

 

[Debrincat93]

kid's been playing legit hockey and hopefully he stays and isnt traded. I am curious to see what he could develop into if he can keep up the progress.. Very solid 2nd pairing guy.

 

[Crymson]

Last year, Jakub Kindl scored more points per minute at even strenght than any Red Wings defenseman except White -- despite having non-offensive linemates.

Kindl was doing fine last year in a very limited role with almost no powerplay time until Lidstrom got hurt. He wasn't great.... but you know, if we wasn't unloading that bomb from the point on the PP over the last 10 games, we wouldn't be so impressed with him this year either.

He's playing well because he's getting a chance to play his game -- FINALLY.

And there were people in here who said Lashoff should be playing over Kindl earlier this year when coach benched Kindl after Kronwall and Flip made a stupid play and Babcock blamed Kindl for it.

People go to all lengths to defend the coach, no matter how stupid his decisions are.
One lucky hat trick, and the Detroit media announces that Abdelkader-Datsyuk is a great line.

Amazing

... and Babcock's coaching was responsible for NO VICTORIES WHATSOEVER. Apparently, the fact that his team is in playoff position despite having the most injuries in the league is vastly less important than the fact that he is not perfect.

Way to go!

 

[jaster]

I dunno. The same way I called that Kindl should absolutely be a regular dman and have been proven right? I know what I'm looking at when I watch hockey.

Ha. You guessed right, get over yourself. Most people agreed that Kindl had the tools. No one knew whether he would fully adjust to the NHL and that things would eventually click for him. Some guys have the tools and click, some guys have the tools and don't click. No one, who's being honest, could say with certainty that Kindl would pan out.

And guess what, not every disagreement you have over players boils down to you "knowing what you're looking at when you watch hockey" and the other person "not knowing what they're looking at when they watch hockey" as you seem to imply. That's called narcissism.

As for Babcock and this team, you look at things that demonstrate he's been a bad coach and nothing that demonstrates he's been a good coach; you look at factors that demonstrate this team sucks and no factors that demonstrate they have been good. Try being objective instead of defeatist.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

... and Babcock's coaching was responsible for NO VICTORIES WHATSOEVER. Apparently, the fact that his team is in playoff position despite having the most injuries in the league is vastly less important than the fact that he is not perfect.

Way to go!

1. Your post has nothing to do with mine.
2. The injury thing is so overblown. Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Kronwall, Ericsson, Howard have been healthy. We lost Flip and Franzen for a few weeks. Losing Helm is the only serious long term injury we've faced -- and he's a bottom sixer.

 

[Heaton]

Reel it in boys and girls.

 

[jroc86]

Kindl >>> Smith

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Kindl >>> Smith

For now. But I actually see Smith developing a game that has a little bit of the best of Kindl and Kronwall in it. If we give him the opportunity

 

[Flowah]

Not to mention that the Wings are still #1 in man-games lost to injury.

With guys like Sammy and CC? The only long term injury of any note is Helm. Wings have been fortunate with injuries compared yo teams like the Sens. Anyone blaming injuries is clueless.

I never said Babcock couldn't take credit for some victories. But last night and Sunday is not due to him. It's thanks to two outstanding goalie performances. And if you're going to be so quick to give Babcock credit, well, you have to give him flak for all the mistakes he made which has cost the team points in this shortened season.

 

[Heaton]

With guys like Sammy and CC? The only long term injury of any note is Helm. Wings have been fortunate with injuries compared yo teams like the Sens. Anyone blaming injuries is clueless.

I never said Babcock couldn't take credit for some victories. But last night and Sunday is not due to him. It's thanks to two outstanding goalie performances. And if you're going to be so quick to give Babcock credit, well, you have to give him flak for all the mistakes he made which has cost the team points in this shortened season.

The best teams have the most depth, I don't care if Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Kronwall and Howard play all 82 games in a season, if you lose tons of depth to injuries and have to replace them with unproven commodities it's extremely taxing on your team. The Wings having the most man games lost is not meaningless and it has affected the Wings negatively. We've had to put guys in situations they never should've been in and the team has still found ways to win.

 

[Flowah]

Ha. You guessed right, get over yourself. Most people agreed that Kindl had the tools. No one knew whether he would fully adjust to the NHL and that things would eventually click for him. Some guys have the tools and click, some guys have the tools and don't click. No one, who's being honest, could say with certainty that Kindl would pan out.

And guess what, not every disagreement you have over players boils down to you "knowing what you're looking at when you watch hockey" and the other person "not knowing what they're looking at when they watch hockey" as you seem to imply. That's called narcissism.

One of the few to guess right apparently. And on Ericsson too. I hold off on opinions until I'm sure. Which is why I said in the Nyquist thread that to me he's essentially in unknown for the NHL until he gets some real consistent time.

You can insult me all you want. Point is, I was right. I never oversold Kindl. I said he just needed consistent time. He'd be a solid NHL player. As for other people, they might see hockey the same way. But they see it with misaligned homer glasses. They are homers for management and the coaching staff. Confusing their defense of those entities with cheering for the team's success. I make no such mistake.

I was patient with Holland for a couple years after 2009, but three years in a row of mediocrity with no sign of change is enough. Same with Babcock.

As for my attitude, try being more objective. Think about it. I am here defending Kindl. I've said that Tatar has earned a permanent spot. I've said that Howard is absolutely a good goalie and on many nights "elite". I gush constantly over Datsyuk. Miller is my favorite grinder and I note every time he does something well. I like what Anderson brings. There are parts of this team that work. And I am quick to point them out. That's not defeatist. It's objective. I call out crap that doesn't work. I point out what is working. I do both. Apparently I should only be constantly praising.

 

[Flowah]

The best teams have the most depth, I don't care if Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Kronwall and Howard play all 82 games in a season, if you lose tons of depth to injuries and have to replace them with unproven commodities it's extremely taxing on your team. The Wings having the most man games lost is not meaningless and it has affected the Wings negatively. We've had to put guys in situations they never should've been in and the team has still found ways to win.

It's certainly not helpful, but Wings had the depth not to be hurt by it. There's no way Tatar is not as good as Sammy. Bert isn't half the player he was 10 years ago. The defense is doing fine without CC and I'm not sure it'd be doing any better with him. Helm would have made a real difference.

Other than Abby/Clearly, who's been put into situations they shouldn't have been? And were they there necessarily? Babcock could have put Tatar there if he wanted. Even now, Miller does not look totally out of place with Z and Filp. He's generated at least 3-4 good chances because of his hockey sense. And again, Babs can put Brunner back up there whenever he wants. He's not forced to play Miller there due to injury.

I'm sure we'd have 4-5 more points with Helm. But anyone else? Pretty much a wash with our callups being able to fill in.

 

[cupforwings09]

1. Your post has nothing to do with mine.
2. The injury thing is so overblown. Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Kronwall, Ericsson, Howard have been healthy. We lost Flip and Franzen for a few weeks. Losing Helm is the only serious long term injury we've faced -- and he's a bottom sixer.

Geeze, come on. How can you believe that? We have more man-games lost than any other team by far. That is absolutely a problem in a short season. You don't think missing Bert, Sammi, Helm, Franzen, Filpula, Smith, Quincey, White, and Colo (am I missing anybody?) for extended periods of time is a big deal. That is 4 top six wingers LOL. In this league, your team needs 4 lines to be competitive. That is our depth right there. It has hurt us big time this season.

You sound like one of those people that think we just need a bunch of skill guys on every line to be good. Helm is one of our most valuable players. The fact you say its not a big deal because he is a "bottom sixer" is laughable. You win championship with depth. It comes down to whose 3rd and 4th lines are better.

 

[CloneHakanPlease*]

I guess you can say he's been a "Kindl Surprise" this year.


No?


Alright, I tried.

 

[jaster]

One of the few to guess right apparently. And on Ericsson too. I hold off on opinions until I'm sure.

Which means you are always right I suppose?

You can insult me all you want.

Flowah, you've been running through the forum with an arrogant attitude and being passive aggressive for a while now. The shtick is getting a bit tiresome. I'm not insulting you, I'm just calling you out. Stop with the, 'you're wrong because you think this way, I notice you make that mistake often,' and 'I'm right because I'm rational and everyone who disagrees with me isn't.' Just stick to the points, which I know you can do, because I've seen you do it.

Point is, I was right. I never oversold Kindl. I said he just needed consistent time. He'd be a solid NHL player. As for other people, they might see hockey the same way. But they see it with misaligned homer glasses. They are homers for management and the coaching staff. Confusing their defense of those entities with cheering for the team's success. I make no such mistake.

Your mistake is that you think you know more than you do. Your positions often run rampant with assumptions I'm not convinced you even realize you're making. But this issue isn't even really about you, specifically, so I'll shift the focus before this spirals out of control. It's no secret that most people on this forum, fairly or unfairly, have been put into one of two camps: homers who blindly defend everything and irrational detractors who always think the sky is falling. Both brushes are extreme, and it will likely always be that way, but we can work to minimize that. Because very few people actually fit those descriptions.

I was patient with Holland for a couple years after 2009, but three years in a row of mediocrity with no sign of change is enough. Same with Babcock.

I completely understand the frustration. It's apparently easier for me to deal with though, because to me it's clear that it's more about the salary cap and parity than it is Babcock and Holland suddenly becoming idiots who need to be fired. Have they been perfect? No. Should they be fired? As far as I can tell, no. Are they still a great coach and great GM, respectively? IMO, yes.

As for my attitude, try being more objective. Think about it. I am here defending Kindl. I've said that Tatar has earned a permanent spot. I've said that Howard is absolutely a good goalie and on many nights "elite". I gush constantly over Datsyuk. Miller is my favorite grinder and I note every time he does something well. I like what Anderson brings. There are parts of this team that work. And I am quick to point them out. That's not defeatist. It's objective. I call out crap that doesn't work. I point out what is working. I do both. Apparently I should only be constantly praising.

Nope, that's another assumption you are making. And it isn't helpful, though I appreciate the sentiment about trying to be rational. But liking specific players doesn't make your view on other matters objective. They aren't connected. Lots of people appreciate specific players but still have a very negative view of the organization. It isn't uncommon, but it also isn't necessarily objective. Two different things. Let's just proceed to the topics in this thread and others and stick to the points.

 

[Bench]

One of the few to guess right apparently. And on Ericsson too. I hold off on opinions until I'm sure.

With talent like this, what are you doing wasting your time with us?

 

[14ari13]

What I like about Kindl (and Ericsson) is that he is strong on the skates along the boards. He has been doing great last 10-15 games. You do not noticed him (does not make glaring mistakes) while he is piling up fantastic numbers. You can't ask for more.
And yes Kindl >>> Smith. Smith is so overrated on this board. I have yet to see any potential from him at this level (NHL).


As we have gone a little bit off topic here.
I also think that the most significant injury is the injury to Helm. After that Franzen and Filppula, but they were not out for too long.
Other injuries are not big deal at all.
BTW, I think we might forget Bertuzzi. Even if he comes back, I doubt he will ever help this team in any way.

 

[Bench]

BTW, I think we might forget Bertuzzi. Even if he comes back, I doubt he will ever help this team in any way.

We might have a few more shootout victories with him, at least.

And while he's not a top line superstar anymore, he keeps defenders honest. He's still got enough skill that if you ignore him, he's going to make a great play.

 

[jaster]

It's certainly not helpful, but Wings had the depth not to be hurt by it. There's no way Tatar is not as good as Sammy. Bert isn't half the player he was 10 years ago. The defense is doing fine without CC and I'm not sure it'd be doing any better with him. Helm would have made a real difference.

I'm lukewarm on Sammy and really excited about Tatar, who I think may have a higher ceiling than Sammy at his height, but I don't think Tatar is as good as Sammy right now. Tatar is a rookie who had a good showing, but he's still adjusting, and lacks all the experience Sammy has. Sammy is no defensive stalwart, but he's better than Tatar. I guess I'd have to see them in the same game to be sure, but I don't think it's impossible Sammy is better than Tatar right now.

Bert's not half the player he used to be, but that's not really relevant. The question is, is he one of our top-12 forwards? (same thing with Sammy)

Cola, I don't know. I don't think any of us can know. But I think he could have been one of our 6 best dmen this year (very possibly better than Huskins/White/Lashoff/Quincey), so given that, his injury hurts the team.

Other than Abby/Clearly, who's been put into situations they shouldn't have been?

Lashoff, Huskins, Miller, Eaves, Andersson, Emmerton, along with Abby and Cleary.... all of these guys would have, on the whole, had smaller roles this year had we been healthy. It has a net effect.

I'm sure we'd have 4-5 more points with Helm. But anyone else? Pretty much a wash with our callups being able to fill in.

I won't guess at specific points lost, but I think there are more than 2 or 3 games we could have won had we been healthy.

 

[newfy]

Keeps getting better for sure. He needs to stop taking penalties though. Seems like hes been getting a lot to me, and they come right as soon as he seems to be getting aggressive out there. Looks like a 4 dman though

 

[RedWingsNow*]

For now. But I actually see Smith developing a game that has a little bit of the best of Kindl and Kronwall in it. If we give him the opportunity

Just to clarify -- I see this as his top end potential. Not sure his defense will ever be very good. Though, I don't know how good anyone can really say Kronwall is in the defense department, and Kindl gets running around pretty easily too.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

What I like about Kindl (and Ericsson) is that he is strong on the skates along the boards. He has been doing great last 10-15 games. You do not noticed him (does not make glaring mistakes) while he is piling up fantastic numbers. You can't ask for more.
And yes Kindl >>> Smith. Smith is so overrated on this board. I have yet to see any potential from him at this level (NHL).


As we have gone a little bit off topic here.
I also think that the most significant injury is the injury to Helm. After that Franzen and Filppula, but they were not out for too long.
Other injuries are not big deal at all.
BTW, I think we might forget Bertuzzi. Even if he comes back, I doubt he will ever help this team in any way.

Losing Sammy, Bert and CC have been addition by subtraction.
We've been able to give Tatar, Nyquist and Kindl looks they wouldn't have gotten.

 

[14ari13]

We might have a few more shootout victories with him, at least.

And while he's not a top line superstar anymore, he keeps defenders honest. He's still got enough skill that if you ignore him, he's going to make a great play.

I forgot about the SOs. That's true.
But I think his injury is the kind that will never really let him get into his best at this point in his career.