KHL Expansion Part VIII

[vorky]

Because every team’s fan base fears for the well-being of their club. And joining the KHL has been kiss of death for many clubs. And we’re all familiar with how fans prefer domestic league play. They don’t care about Moscow or St. Petersburg, they want their Czech team playing Czech teams.

That is your opinion.

As I see it, there are at least 3 fans groups - those wanting to play against CZ teams, another group prefers international games against European clubs or/and Russian clubs.

We have experience with Sparta´s fans, who attended Lev Prague´s games. Of course, there was a group who hated Russia/KHL.

Last but not least, I doubt that Sparta´s owner, or whatever owner, would go and ask every fan, if the team may join the KHL. Such a decision has been made by the owner, not by fans.

Btw, I just wrote what Sparta´s fans talk about. They think Sparta may move to the KHL. Yeah, just their speculations.

 

[Jussi]

So you basically read fan fiction and decided to report it as news. Or to put it in HFBoards terminology, you read a trade proposal at the Transactions board and made a "news story" about the team's front office on that. Bold strategy, Cotton...

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

That is your opinion.

As I see it, there are at least 3 fans groups - those wanting to play against CZ teams, another group prefers international games against European clubs or/and Russian clubs.

We have experience with Sparta´s fans, who attended Lev Prague´s games. Of course, there was a group who hated Russia/KHL.

Last but not least, I doubt that Sparta´s owner, or whatever owner, would go and ask every fan, if the team may join the KHL. Such a decision has been made by the owner, not by fans.

Btw, I just wrote what Sparta´s fans talk about. They think Sparta may move to the KHL. Yeah, just their speculations.

Lev Poprad, Lev Praha, Medvescak, Jokerit propped up with more than 10 million in loses. It’s easy to see why fans of Sparta don’t want to join KHL. It is now social donation from the rich, not business that is being run.

People clearly prefer domestic play. Sparta Praha attendance is at 8,000 in Czech league, Lev had 5,000 when they folded. Where were all pro-KHL fans then? Anti-KHL group is clearly much bigger.

It is just speculation. As is every single assertion that’s been made since 2010 that a German, French, or Swiss team with big money will join. Suspicious how once potential ownership looks at finances of joining and then is never heard from again? Until new group pops up.

How many times have we heard about even “confirmed” KHL Europe expansion that hasn’t happened? I can think of Milano, Huttwil, London, RB Salzburg and München, Köln, Paris, Geneva, we all know how Crowns worked out. Espoo, as well. People are wise to things now, especially seeing Jokerit finances.

 

[vorky]

@Barclay Donaldson

Have you ever thought of various European entities blocking the KHL´s expansion to Europe?

If talking about the official statements by the KHL, then it is only AIK Stockholm and the Swiss project. Both did not materialise due to the position of local entities, not KHL´s fault.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

@Barclay Donaldson

Have you ever thought of various European entities blocking the KHL´s expansion to Europe?

If talking about the official statements by the KHL, then it is only AIK Stockholm and the Swiss project. Both did not materialise due to the position of local entities, not KHL´s fault.

I know Swedish hockey association blocked Crowns. Because they didn’t want the thing to lose money for a few years and then die like Poprad, Praha, Medvescak or have to be bankrolled as a failed nationalist project like Jokerit.

But how many times has there been announcements like the ones regarding Red Bull Salzburg/München joining within a few years? And then ones right afterwards where RB owner Mateschitz says there’s no chance of it happening?

They block it because KHL teams lose money. Lots of it. Hockey is a business in everywhere but Russia. It’s not compatible. Jokerit owner says the situation with arena and league is burden that he wouldn’t even place upon his children. It’s better to invest that money in domestic leagues and improve them rather than throw money away with nationalist project like KHL. Why waste millions when you’re not going to keep your best players anyways. That was whole point of KHL, obviously it has changed since but still.

 

[TheWhiskeyThief]

Because every team’s fan base fears for the well-being of their club. And joining the KHL has been kiss of death for many clubs. And we’re all familiar with how fans prefer domestic league play. They don’t care about Moscow or St. Petersburg, they want their Czech team playing Czech teams.

Asides from derbies with Brno, I don’t think attendance figures would make much difference for Sparta for which league they play in and getting a derby with Slovan would make up for losing Brno(it would also drive TV ratings in 2 countries. )

 

[TheWhiskeyThief]

@Barclay Donaldson

Have you ever thought of various European entities blocking the KHL´s expansion to Europe?

If talking about the official statements by the KHL, then it is only AIK Stockholm and the Swiss project. Both did not materialise due to the position of local entities, not KHL´s fault.

Under a recent European court ruling, national organizing structures can’t block players(or teams) from competing in non approved competitions.

So SIHF couldn’t stop it even if they wanted to. The thing is, with the tv deal CMore has with the SHL, it makes more sense for AIK to just try and get promoted rather than join the KHL.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Asides from derbies with Brno, I don’t think attendance figures would make much difference for Sparta for which league they play in and getting a derby with Slovan would make up for losing Brno(it would also drive TV ratings in 2 countries. )

The rivalry with Bratislava was never a big boost for either Lev team. It was a boost but it wasn’t game-changing. TV ratings were good, I will admit, but none of it makes up for the massive increase in salaries or travel that would come with a move to the KHL. Trading local travel with still high level hockey and much lower salaries for one rivalry, insane travel costs, and skyrocketing salaries isn’t a smart trade. It’s one that no rational person would make.

 

[TheWhiskeyThief]

The rivalry with Bratislava was never a big boost for either Lev team. It was a boost but it wasn’t game-changing. TV ratings were good, I will admit, but none of it makes up for the massive increase in salaries or travel that would come with a move to the KHL. Trading local travel with still high level hockey and much lower salaries for one rivalry, insane travel costs, and skyrocketing salaries isn’t a smart trade. It’s one that no rational person would make.

Nobody twists any arms for a team to have skyrocketing salaries.

Meanwhile, it’s probably a quicker trip to Riga, Minsk or Helsinki than it is to bus to Ostrava or Trinec; flying commercial would be competitive to a domestic league charter bus. Hotels are hotels, your extra costs would be per diems on the road, which would be €1500/day for the team & staff. On a KHL season, the extra costs are maybe another €200k in the budget if planned early enough.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Nobody twists any arms for a team to have skyrocketing salaries.

Meanwhile, it’s probably a quicker trip to Riga, Minsk or Helsinki than it is to bus to Ostrava or Trinec; flying commercial would be competitive to a domestic league charter bus. Hotels are hotels, your extra costs would be per diems on the road, which would be €1500/day for the team & staff. On a KHL season, the extra costs are maybe another €200k in the budget if planned early enough.

You're severely underestimating the cost of travel to and from Eastern Europe to Prague and overestimating costs for Sparta Praha. Yes, it's quicker to hope on a plan and be in Minsk in 2 hours than a 3 1/2 trip from Prague to Ostrava. But, we're not talking speed, we're talking finances. Many nights in Czech Extraliga, players sleep in their own beds and don't even need hotels since the furthest trip is 4 hours. Majority of games for a centrally located team like Praha are 2 hours. Nice bus is usually 2,000 Euros per night if renting and even the rare long road trips don't add up to a lot.

If they played in KHL, they would need a flight for every single divisional opponent except maybe Slovan. They certainly travel on team chartered flights. Chartered flights at the cheapest are 7,000 Euros per hour of flight. 15 rooms every day on every away trip at around 150 Euros per night. The difference is far more than 200k.

 

[TheWhiskeyThief]

Why would you charter flights?

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Why would you charter flights?

Because this is professional sports... Flying commercial isn't logistically feasible. You have at least 35 people flying, each one has a minimum of 2 personal bags, likely more if it's a long road trip. The 25 or so players also have their hockey bags and minimum 5 sticks. The medical and equipment staff usually have 10-15 boxes of medical equipment, jerseys, gear, repair kit, the usual stuff, more if it's a long road trip. There's too much stuff for a commercial flight, not to mention weight limits, which I believe is still 25 kg for a person.

And charter flights become more preferential as it comes with invaluable scheduling benefits. Team takes a van or personal vehicle straight up to the plane on the tarmac, crew loads it up, and take off. When they land, the bus pulls up, crew unloads and reloads, and they're off to the hotel or arena. It avoids security, baggage check-in, waiting at the gate, boarding, deboarding, walking through airport, picking up 750 kilograms worth of equipment from carousel, carrying it through rest of airport, and players themselves putting onto bus. And bumping shoulders with the public is something all professional teams avoid. Means no fan confrontations, spreading of illnesses, impromptu autograph sessions.

 

[Jussi]

Why would you charter flights?

Jokerit do those with Finnair. And let's be reality, why would any non-Russian want to fly Aeroflot these days?

 

[Jussi]

Because this is professional sports... Flying commercial isn't logistically feasible. You have at least 35 people flying, each one has a minimum of 2 personal bags, likely more if it's a long road trip. The 25 or so players also have their hockey bags and minimum 5 sticks. The medical and equipment staff usually have 10-15 boxes of medical equipment, jerseys, gear, repair kit, the usual stuff, more if it's a long road trip. There's too much stuff for a commercial flight, not to mention weight limits, which I believe is still 25 kg for a person.

And charter flights become more preferential as it comes with invaluable scheduling benefits. Team takes a van or personal vehicle straight up to the plane on the tarmac, crew loads it up, and take off. When they land, the bus pulls up, crew unloads and reloads, and they're off to the hotel or arena. It avoids security, baggage check-in, waiting at the gate, boarding, deboarding, walking through airport, picking up 750 kilograms worth of equipment from carousel, carrying it through rest of airport, and players themselves putting onto bus. And bumping shoulders with the public is something all professional teams avoid. Means no fan confrontations, spreading of illnesses, impromptu autograph sessions.

It's the insurance and security costs that drive up Jokerit expenses. It's not cheap insuring a professional sports team flying to/in Russia.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

It's the insurance and security costs that drive up Jokerit expenses. It's not cheap insuring a professional sports team flying to/in Russia.

Why is it expensive to insure? Soviet era planes still can’t be flying in great numbers? Even after all the crashes.

 

[vorky]

I know Swedish hockey association blocked Crowns. Because they didn’t want the thing to lose money for a few years and then die like Poprad, Praha, Medvescak or have to be bankrolled as a failed nationalist project like Jokerit.

But how many times has there been announcements like the ones regarding Red Bull Salzburg/München joining within a few years? And then ones right afterwards where RB owner Mateschitz says there’s no chance of it happening?

They block it because KHL teams lose money. Lots of it. Hockey is a business in everywhere but Russia. It’s not compatible. Jokerit owner says the situation with arena and league is burden that he wouldn’t even place upon his children. It’s better to invest that money in domestic leagues and improve them rather than throw money away with nationalist project like KHL. Why waste millions when you’re not going to keep your best players anyways. That was whole point of KHL, obviously it has changed since but still.

Your argumentation is very wrong, especially following

-I know Swedish hockey association blocked Crowns. Because they didn’t want the thing to lose money for a few years
-They block it because KHL teams lose money.
-Hockey is a business in everywhere

 

[vorky]

Under a recent European court ruling, national organizing structures can’t block players(or teams) from competing in non approved competitions.

So SIHF couldn’t stop it even if they wanted to. The thing is, with the tv deal CMore has with the SHL, it makes more sense for AIK to just try and get promoted rather than join the KHL.

I can agree, but you know how it works...

There is the IIHF rule claiming the KHL needs approval from national hockey federation.

There are many ways how to block anything. It is not only about law.

Why do you think the KHL keeps the negotiations secret?

 

[vorky]

The rivalry with Bratislava was never a big boost for either Lev team. It was a boost but it wasn’t game-changing. TV ratings were good, I will admit, but none of it makes up for the massive increase in salaries or travel that would come with a move to the KHL. Trading local travel with still high level hockey and much lower salaries for one rivalry, insane travel costs, and skyrocketing salaries isn’t a smart trade. It’s one that no rational person would make.

I agree the games Slovan vs Lev Prague was not comparable to possible Slovan vs Sparta Prague, but it still was the main topic of the month in media & fans communities. Even those hating Slovan, Lev, KHL commented it.

All point of the KHL is to bring the unifying league to Europe. Yes, it has travel expenses, but we talk about European or even Eurasian league, you need to travel a bit if you want such a league.

I will give you an example of the CHL. Slovak champ Banská Bystrica announced they will not play the next CHL edition because they are losing money, especially on travelling and accommodation.

 

[TheWhiskeyThief]

Because this is professional sports... Flying commercial isn't logistically feasible. You have at least 35 people flying, each one has a minimum of 2 personal bags, likely more if it's a long road trip. The 25 or so players also have their hockey bags and minimum 5 sticks. The medical and equipment staff usually have 10-15 boxes of medical equipment, jerseys, gear, repair kit, the usual stuff, more if it's a long road trip. There's too much stuff for a commercial flight, not to mention weight limits, which I believe is still 25 kg for a person.

And charter flights become more preferential as it comes with invaluable scheduling benefits. Team takes a van or personal vehicle straight up to the plane on the tarmac, crew loads it up, and take off. When they land, the bus pulls up, crew unloads and reloads, and they're off to the hotel or arena. It avoids security, baggage check-in, waiting at the gate, boarding, deboarding, walking through airport, picking up 750 kilograms worth of equipment from carousel, carrying it through rest of airport, and players themselves putting onto bus. And bumping shoulders with the public is something all professional teams avoid. Means no fan confrontations, spreading of illnesses, impromptu autograph sessions.

Most NHL teams flew commercial until 20 years ago because they couldn’t afford to do otherwise. Some teams started chartering 30 years ago.

Gear can get shipped like cargo and the rest of the logistics are manageable.

You’re working under the idea that the KHL is a big league operation, when it’s shown repeatedly it isn’t.

 

[SoundAndFury]

Some KHL teams definitely fly commercial, you could have seen Hannu Jortikka explaining in his pressers how Amur had to fly back and forth and pretty much sleep in airports because they had connecting flights to catch.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Most NHL teams flew commercial until 20 years ago because they couldn’t afford to do otherwise. Some teams started chartering 30 years ago.

Gear can get shipped like cargo and the rest of the logistics are manageable.

You’re working under the idea that the KHL is a big league operation, when it’s shown repeatedly it isn’t.

I’ve found a website that reports their flights and they’re almost exclusively charter. I’ve found one example Football & other Sports Charters: KHL 6 December 2016 you can explore the website at your leisure. It looks like many Russian teams are still going on Yak-42s, same model as Lokomotiv crash.

Logistics are manageable but not in commercial flights or shipping them like cargo. This is pro sports, KHL isn’t on the high end of it, but after looking at the website for two seconds and prior knowledge, it looks like vast majority of teams since they are flying with airlines they have deals with, like Jussi mentioned Jokerit with Finnair.

And non-corporate air charter really only started 20-25 years ago when non-NFL teams started doing it. NFL had to do it before everyone because NFL has over 100 people and more than 1,000 kilograms in equipment.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Your argumentation is very wrong, especially following

-I know Swedish hockey association blocked Crowns. Because they didn’t want the thing to lose money for a few years
-They block it because KHL teams lose money.
-Hockey is a business in everywhere

Hockey is a business everywhere but KHL. Germany: Frankfurt Lions, Hamburg Freezers both crap their pants and die. Not kept alive by Russian money. Finland: Espoo. Sweden: AIK stays in second division before getting promoted. Medvescak in Austria league.

And Swedish hockey blocks it, or at least they supposedly did. And people are staying concentrating on SHL, a league where even the third most valuable team loses the €10 million each year. Frölunda and Djugården play each other with money, Swedish honor, on the line, not to play KHL team miles away in next round.

All KHL teams except for CKA and CSKA lose money. DEL teams reject chance to join second best league in the world. Why? Money. RB Salzburg and München tell you to go drink your vodka somewhere else. French and Western European investors repeatedly show up but never buy a team after looking at the finances. Get real, open your eyes.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

I agree the games Slovan vs Lev Prague was not comparable to possible Slovan vs Sparta Prague, but it still was the main topic of the month in media & fans communities. Even those hating Slovan, Lev, KHL commented it.

All point of the KHL is to bring the unifying league to Europe. Yes, it has travel expenses, but we talk about European or even Eurasian league, you need to travel a bit if you want such a league.

I will give you an example of the CHL. Slovak champ Banská Bystrica announced they will not play the next CHL edition because they are losing money, especially on travelling and accommodation.

I agree that Sparta-Slovan would be better than Lev-Slovan was. Lev-Slovan was overhyped, not sure if use that word correct. It wouldn’t be a bigger KHL rivalry game, but it would help with ratings.

The point of KHL bringing European division has failed. No one wants to join, as we’ve already discussed. Only owners who would join must be willing to do social donation/charity giving of many tens of millions of Euros.

I did not hear about that. Not surprising since CHL really has no financial benefit like Champions League. However, with that logic, how can you expect teams who don’t want to travel for very few away games to join a league where that’s all they will be doing.

 

[vorky]

Hockey is a business everywhere but KHL. Germany: Frankfurt Lions, Hamburg Freezers both crap their pants and die. Not kept alive by Russian money. Finland: Espoo. Sweden: AIK stays in second division before getting promoted. Medvescak in Austria league.

So, your problem is subsidiarities by big corporations or municipalities. Fine. The KHL has been working on decreasing the level of subsidiarities.

If I wanted, I could bring you an example of European clubs, who are supported by municipalities. For example, free leasing of the arena. I get you, when Europeans do it, it is business, when Russian doing it, it is not a business.

Do you know what is a problem of European hockey? Big corporations do not want to finance European club hockey!

It would be good news when big corporations are involved in European hockey. The KHL has been working on it (see France-Paris-Total).

And Swedish hockey blocks it, or at least they supposedly did. And people are staying concentrating on SHL, a league where even the third most valuable team loses the €10 million each year. Frölunda and Djugården play each other with money, Swedish honor, on the line, not to play KHL team miles away in next round.

I doubt, the Swedish hockey association blocked it due to worrying about losing money by that club. But, you can think whatever you want.

All KHL teams except for CKA and CSKA lose money. DEL teams reject chance to join second best league in the world. Why? Money. RB Salzburg and München tell you to go drink your vodka somewhere else. French and Western European investors repeatedly show up but never buy a team after looking at the finances. Get real, open your eyes.

Name just one DEL club who signed an agreement with the KHL about joining the league, but did not join at the end of a day.

 

[vorky]

I agree that Sparta-Slovan would be better than Lev-Slovan was. Lev-Slovan was overhyped, not sure if use that word correct. It wouldn’t be a bigger KHL rivalry game, but it would help with ratings.

Name just one bigger "federal" derby in former Czechslovakia than Slovan v Sparta.

The point of KHL bringing European division has failed. No one wants to join, as we’ve already discussed. Only owners who would join must be willing to do social donation/charity giving of many tens of millions of Euros.

You contradict yourself.

Do you have better information on this topic than Chernyshenko and Timchenko?

I did not hear about that. Not surprising since CHL really has no financial benefit like Champions League. However, with that logic, how can you expect teams who don’t want to travel for very few away games to join a league where that’s all they will be doing.

So, now you know about it.

Btw, did not you say European club hockey is business? If it is a business, how is it possible that clubs do not want to play the biggest European club competition (as they say)?

I do not think, anybody wants Banska Bystrica to play the KHL. Just look at their venue... it is not even a venue, it is some old building with ice.