I would be the first one applauding if Hunter came on board I just don’t see it unless they give him an Associate GM role. It has to be worth his time to leave. He left Toronto because he wasn’t taking orders from Dubas who was younger and a heated rival from SSM. I don’t see him coming to be an assistant, listening to an inexperienced GM. Hunter or Futa would be huge but I would be surprised. Karmanos has a personal relationship with Adams so there is a relationship there.
Kevyn Adams - New GM
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Djp
Registered User
I don’t want any Pittsburgh cast offs...
Why are you and others so negative on Adams?
he worked in different parts of the Sabres organization for 10 years learning dif
ferent aspects of what a GM does.
promoting asst GMs in charge of one area like scouting has no knowledge of other parts of the job other than a few areas.
He has experience playing hockey and being in the game
He can hire de ent AGMs in charge of different areas and he’s just the decision maker.
Djp
Registered User
myperspective....
I don’t trust the video...it’s edited.
I think Pegulaand hockey are close to be Snyder and WFT.
Pegula with football or more hands off just supporting the GM in their needs like private planes. He’s not there in decision making. He likely lets GM do things outside of high profile moves that he wants to O.K. such as big signings.
Jim Bob
RIP RJ
He wasn’t doing things GMs do in his prior role.
With the Sabres, he was a coach and worked on the business side of the house away from the hockey ops side of the house.
I am down on Adams’ complete lack of experience on the hockey ops side of things. Scouts and AGMs have hockey ops experience.
And the problem so far is that they gave a rookie hockey ops person the GM job and then they gutted the hockey ops department and didn’t give him anyone that had GM experience to bounce things off of and help with the learning curve.
I don’t hate Adams in general. I don’t hate Adams as a GM in theory.
I do question whether the Pegulas will be patient enough to let him work through the inevitable learning curve. And it was beyond stupid to gut the entire hockey ops department for his first season as GM.
Fezzy126
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Coaching and a 2nd goalie.
Don't get me wrong, I have issues with our roster construction, but the fact that so many players leave here and become solid role players elsewhere tells me our talent level has been fine here. Certainly not great, but better than the tank-level results we're seeing here.
I mean seriously, we were icing a lineup that featured ten top 10 picks. It was these very players that were the reason we were losing. What is a PoHO going to do, Not draft top 10 talent? Not sign the consensus top FA available each year like we've been doing?
Let me ask an alternative question, what specifically is a PoHO going to do? Can you answer without using a buzzword like 'vision' or 'culture'? I'm not trying to be snarky, it's just that IMO the only reason people want a person overseeing Adams is because they don't trust Adams. If that's the case then the discussion should revolve around replacing him.
Edit: I would add that I fully expect a rebuilt hockey dept underneath Adams to support him moving forward. Getting back to normal levels of front office personnel has to be done at a minimum.
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Buffaloed
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It seemed authentic at the time. We had an owner so passionate about the team he was willing to go the extra mile to get people to come here. With Richards and Babcock it became pathetic.
Rutherford isn’t coming to be President. He would be senior advisor. What he brings is decades of front office experience. He knows what a successful, functioning Front office looks like. He also brings two important things: 1) tons of contacts with all the most important people in the game, front office people, league officials, agents, scouts, players which leads to 2) instant credibility in hockey circles. It no longer stands as a complete dumpster fire with the Pegulas and a GM with no front office experience. It becomes a 3 time Stanley Cup Champion, HHOF front office leader in the FO which changes the narrative for a lot of NHL people when the phone rings and it says Sabres calling.
Rutherford is far from perfect, heck Lou Lam has has his fair share of awful deals and signings as well. I’m not even married to it having to be Rutherford. But this organization has been DESPERATE for respectable, veteran, successful leadership for 10 years. It would finally be a step in the right direction. Rutherford has a relationship with Adams and Karmanos so it would probably run very smoothly but just get some vet hockey people into this organization ASAP.
Buffaloed
webmaster
Fun fact - Other than Punch Imlach the Sabres have never hired a GM with previous experience. They've all been first time GM's.
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BloFan4Life
Registered User
You realize that he owns a hockey team that has probably lost thousands in the last year. They probably ain't playing again this season, so that's more lost money.
If Hunter wants to get back to the NHL, which a simple google search will show that he has put his name out there to try and get back in, he isn't going to get a GM role. He will need to come back into NHL as a step below GM.
No one knows what happened in Toronto, but he wasn't the only one to leave. Pretty sure 3 out of 4 people from their front office left.
The inexperienced GM would be listening to Hunter, not the other way around. Hunter would be advising Adams who to pick/sign. Adams would be the data organizer and the liaison between the coach and AGMs.
BloFan4Life
Registered User
Pretty sure Terry told Darcy to lift the spending limits he had under Golisano, and that's who Darcy decided to spend on.
We all know they tried for Richards too.
People think Terry sits up there and demands the GM signs certain players. All he does is give them an open check book and they decide to sign the tops FAs. People need to stop letting these GMs decisions being justified because Terry said to spend whatever money you want.
Old Navy Goat
Registered User
I don't understand why people bring up Erhoff as a negative. That was a perfect example of using the financial flexibility that having a new owner willing to spend provided the Sabres with. The problem developed with the new CBA that basically outlawed those contracts by rendering them apocalyptic in the event the player didn't finish the term. It was a smart move and through no fault of the Sabres didn't work out
Fezzy126
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Regarding Point #1 - Adams has been involved in Pro hockey for 25 years. If he isn't already connected with someone in the game, they're never more than one degree of separation away from him establishing a relationship. And let's be real, he's the GM of an NHL team and a former player, he's already in the old boys club. When he picks up the phone, whether there's a prior relationship or not, they're picking up. What I really care about is a basic understanding of player evaluation, the ability to gather and analyze data, and team management skills. As some other green GMs have proven (Sakic, Yzerman), you either have the skills or you don't.
Regarding Point #2 - Credibility is a buzzword, and it's one that comes with winning. Every front office in the league has warts, but our reputation has been formed because of the on ice product. For example, Dundon is cheap and constantly cuts corners on management and coaching dollars, he's on record saying that hockey executives are overpaid and overvalued. But every year when the Canes make analtyics based FA signings or draft decisions the franchise is applauded. It's no different than in football and 'the Patriot way'. As soon as Brady left and they stopped winning, players want nothing to do with Patriot's culture.
To expand on this, we could hire Lou Lam, Trotz, and 20 other name executives, but honestly college free agents aren't going to start signing here until they see a change in the team's performance.
I do agree that the front office needs help, there just isn't enough personnel in place to run a franchise. If we can attract experienced executives, great, Adams is only going to do as well as his support team. But in all industries people mistake experience for good experience. I put Rutherford in the bad experience category, so I wouldn't want him in any role, even just advisory. I really don't care about his rolodex...
Karmanos - Sure
Mike Futa - Great
Mike Gillis - Great
Meghan Chayka - Sure
Dudley or Luce - Sure
I think you are overestimating the networking capabilities players once they are in the NHL. Typically, they interact with the coaches, and only talk to management types when its time to sign a contract or are getting traded. The rest is handled by his agent.
A player -> GM path is usually a lower level position (player development or something of that ilk) assistant GM/associate GM, then they'll get a shot at a NHL GM job (assuming they want to). That is how Drury and Yzerman did it. Shannahan went via the NHL rather than a team. But still, these guys go through professional front offices, see how it all works, and learn from experienced GMs.
This is Adams "experience" from his wiki page:
That's two years as an assistant coach, 6 years doing....assorted jobs at the harbor center which don't overlap with a NHL GM duties in the slightest
And then he was a SVP and then GM with the Sabres.
The equivalent in the IT world would be being a IT Tech for two years at a fortune 500 company, going to work fixing Iphone Screens at a mall kiosk for 5 years, then going back to the same fortune 500 company, being made VP of Technology and then CTO a year after. That is Kevyn Adams journey. It's pure insanity.
You aren't wrong about credibility coming with winning. However, I think it's more to it than that. A player and agent look at how the team is setup for success, who is in place, what is the stability like. What a player doesn't want is 4 coaches in 3 years, 2 GM changes, etc.
And that is the issue with the Sabres and continues to be. If the Sabres made the playoffs this year and kept Krueger, we wouldn't be a destination because the franchise isn't setup for long term success because the front office is just one guy with no experience making it up as he goes along. It's hard to run a successful hockey team and keep the pipeline going. It's a ton of moving pieces and parts.
Buffalo has Adams, who lacks the experience in a front office to run a team.
May Day 10
Registered User
I think its insane that Sabres fans wouldnt want someone of Rutherford's experience and credentials brought in. In a vaccuum with a normal team, he wouldnt be anywhere near my choice to be GM of the Sabres... but this organization needs to be rebuilt with the assistance of someone (anyone) with vast experience, and Rutherford is one of maybe 4-5 humans out there who I would qualify. Kevyn Adams has zero experience, not even in an AGM role before becoming a GM, and by my count, his record as GM is currently 6-23-5. Not going well.
If there is a power hierarchy being ironed out by 3 individuals who are connected, 2 with experience in Adams, Karmanos, and Rutherford, I am all for it. Personally, I would like to see Adams take on more of the Shanahan role he had with Toronto as opposed to the grinding wheel GM. I have no interest in supporting this team watching Adams flail around and try to gain experience on the job along with other inexperienced nobodies they have installed in the few major roles that still exist.
This thing is a heavy lift right now. On the ice they are a joke. Lots of physical and psychological issues. They have no front office. Terrible and disjointed decision-making hierarchy that Kim Pegula calls "sharing ideas". A first timer is thrown in the middle of the Pacific Ocean with no paddle
I would have loved it if they could have brought Dudley aboard as an overseer and allowed him to build the thing from the top down. Don Luce would be a great guy to bring back into the building as well from a scouting standpoint.
Going with a Burke/Hextall combo would have been a great move, but the insisted existence of Kevyn Adams here prevents anything like that.
Dean Lombardi would be great
If there is a power hierarchy being ironed out by 3 individuals who are connected, 2 with experience in Adams, Karmanos, and Rutherford, I am all for it. Personally, I would like to see Adams take on more of the Shanahan role he had with Toronto as opposed to the grinding wheel GM. I have no interest in supporting this team watching Adams flail around and try to gain experience on the job along with other inexperienced nobodies they have installed in the few major roles that still exist.
This thing is a heavy lift right now. On the ice they are a joke. Lots of physical and psychological issues. They have no front office. Terrible and disjointed decision-making hierarchy that Kim Pegula calls "sharing ideas". A first timer is thrown in the middle of the Pacific Ocean with no paddle
I would have loved it if they could have brought Dudley aboard as an overseer and allowed him to build the thing from the top down. Don Luce would be a great guy to bring back into the building as well from a scouting standpoint.
Going with a Burke/Hextall combo would have been a great move, but the insisted existence of Kevyn Adams here prevents anything like that.
Dean Lombardi would be great
SackTastic
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It was fairly widely reported at the time and since that while Darcy was interested in Erhoff, he did not want to sign that long a deal. Darcy was not interested in Leino at all, but when they lost out on Richards, Terry pushed to sign both of them big to 'prove' to other big names that Buffalo would spend. Of course, Darcy then took the fall for those contracts not working out.
Terry is clearly involved with these player decisions. He may not be saying the words "sign player X to contract Y", but when the owner is sitting in the room saying "well I really like that guy" , or "if this happens we're chasing a Stanley Cup", that influences the process. A LOT.
This (to me) is why this Rutherford smoke makes sense ; he wants ownership out of the room for conversations about WHO to sign.
SackTastic
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Don't agree with you there. They could have gotten Erhoff (and Leino) for that matter for MUCH cheaper, and shorter term. Terry pushed for those moves because he wanted the team to 'make a splash'.
Both players have said in interviews since leaving that they felt tremendous pressure to live up to those contracts and the expectations surrounding them. That pretty clearly impacted their careers.
Old Navy Goat
Registered User
They got Erhoff so cheap because he signed a front loaded 10yr deal with bonuses the first couple seasons so they could have the last years be 1mil per ie the retirement contract that they expected him to walk away after 7yrs. These were the deals the major markets signed to keeo cap hits low and give the players more money up front. The league changed it with the CBA so Buffalo had to buy him out and this took away Pegula's buying power
OkimLom
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I agree with this.
My negativity stems from what he represents moreso than the guy himself. It's another representative of the Pegulas treating the organization more like a business than a sports team. It's another shot at an inexperienced person managing this organization when we need experience at handling a sports team.
That alone should show he's not qualified for the job. Where do you think he would learn successful habits? What quality of education is he actually receiving in those areas?
Then he's a GM by title only, and quite frankly not the person this organization should have in charge of overseeing the building of the team.
Djp
Registered User
how e actly isthis any different than say a former player becoming GM like Yzerman? Is Yzerman high profile and Adams is not?
Yzerman worked in Detroit's front office under Ken Holland for 4 years before being offered a role in Tampa.
That's the difference. Not running youth camps at "academy of hockey at little ceasars practice rink".
It has nothing to do that Adams was a player.
It's that he has no practical managerial experience at any professional, major junior, or college level.
It's insanity that he's our GM, especially since he's doing it by himself mostly.
Fezzy126
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Yzerman's hockey equipment hadn't even dried off yet before they named him Vice President:
Yzerman timeline: from Red Wings legend to general manager
Now that may have just been a cushy title, but that's hardly working your way up through the ranks under the tutelage of someone else. Sakic was similarly thrown into the fire with little to no managerial experience. Alternatively, Botts had that wet dream resume everyone is looking for...
I don't disagree with the insanity point though, rookie or not, any GM here would be set up for failure without the proper support structure. I think everyone here is in complete agreement about that point.
OkimLom
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The process in which both guys became GM were drastically different.
But that is beside the point. The experience in which Adams had, in roles and term length, shouldn’t have been the Sabres solution after striking out on two rookie GMs. We needed more experience in the GM, not less.
Jim Bob
RIP RJ
Eliteprospects.com - Steve Yzerman Team Staff Profile
That role was all about grooming Yzerman to eventually replace Holland as the Wings GM. He wasn't thrown into a decision making position immediately. This was all about learning the ins and outs of the hockey ops side of things.
Yzerman also worked his way up through the management side of Hockey Canada as he was their GM for two World Championships prior to getting the GM job for the Olympics.
Joe Sakic at eliteprospects.com
Sakic had three seasons in a similar role prior to being named the Avs GM.
The difference in experience prior to getting an NHL GM job is vastly different when looking at guys like Sakic & Yzerman and then looking at Adams.
BloFan4Life
Registered User
This building of the front office is taking far too long. Hire some people already.
Does Adams understand how much work needs to be done from now until June? No matter what job you start, there is a time period where your body is just trying to acclimate. Tick, tick, tick
Does Adams understand how much work needs to be done from now until June? No matter what job you start, there is a time period where your body is just trying to acclimate. Tick, tick, tick
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