Kessel top 5 player in the world/ top 3 forward?

[The_Chosen_One]

Id put Tavares in that second group and agree with you.

Tavares isn't even strong defensively. We've actually been giving Kessel much tougher minutes than the 'Saugan counterpart. Never mind, that he never played with someone like Vanek even though JVR does have the potential to rival him.

Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos, Ovechkin, Getzlaf, Toews...seems much more agreeable. My only problem with Toews is that he's playing with two two-way monsters in Hossa and Sharp, and that's obviously going to be helping him in that regard.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Bump.

Just one short year ago, it seems like the vast majority of posters here had Kessel as a top 10 forward in the NHL. Something to think about before we blame him for everything that is wrong with this organization and ship him out of town for a B prospect and a late 1st round pick.

 

[CDN24]

My brain has not registered its 2015- opened it thinking it was a new thread wondering why everyone was excluding this year's stats. Kinda scared to see if i still agree with what i thought last year in some cases.

 

[BlueBaron]

No Toews?

Or Tavares ? And where does Seguin fit in these days ?

I think it's safe to say he is among the top 3 right wingers but after that it is difficult to qualify and subjective as hell.

 

[Leviathan899]

Bump.

Just one short year ago, it seems like the vast majority of posters here had Kessel as a top 10 forward in the NHL. Something to think about before we blame him for everything that is wrong with this organization and ship him out of town for a B prospect and a late 1st round pick.

This just goes to show you how uninformed and uneducated the average poster on HF is if they truly every believed Kessel was anywhere close to top 5 player in the league. Just because he puts up points doesn't mean he is top 5, let alone top 20. People only look at stats and assume that because a player has great numbers, he's a great player. You have to be a seriously flawed player to go point per game, yet still finish minus. I'm not a big plus/minus fan at all, but when it outlies that much, it does reflect something. Kessel might be top 5 when it simply comes to rushing down the wing and letting a snap shot go, that will only go in here and there.

I believe unless Kessel changes the way he approaches and plays the game to an extent, his days of 70 plus points will be behind him, or if he does, it will be from feasting on the PP.

 

[BlueBaron]

This just goes to show you how uninformed and uneducated the average poster on HF is if they truly every believed Kessel was anywhere close to top 5 player in the league. Just because he puts up points doesn't mean he is top 5, let alone top 20. People only look at stats and assume that because a player has great numbers, he's a great player. You have to be a seriously flawed player to go point per game, yet still finish minus. I'm not a big plus/minus fan at all, but when it outlies that much, it does reflect something. Kessel might be top 5 when it simply comes to rushing down the wing and letting a snap shot go, that will only go in here and there.

I believe unless Kessel changes the way he approaches and plays the game to an extent, his days of 70 plus points will be behind him, or if he does, it will be from feasting on the PP.

Maybe a terrible defensive team ? Nah couldn't be.....

As for your belief ? It does not seem to be based on anything but negativity.

 

[Leviathan899]

Maybe a terrible defensive team ? Nah couldn't be.....

As for your belief ? It does not seem to be based on anything but negativity.

Nah it is based on actually watching Kessel play hockey. Stange eh? I admit the team is not good defensively, but that is due in large part to Kessel and JVR, two of the players who play top minutes for us and are bad without the puck.

Explain to me what Kessel does good? He is strong on the PP where he is given time and space to make a play, which he normally is pretty good at. He can use his vision and passing abilities to open up lanes for his teammates, or he can use his quick release to beat the goalie or generate a rebound.

In 5 on 5 play, the majority of the play, Kessel is very ineffective. He is weak in his own zone without the puck, but is also weak in the offensive and neurtal zone as well when he doesn't have the puck. Everyone wants a puck possession team, but you can't play a cycle game along the boards with Kessel on your line, because he simply won't play hard along the wall and try and win puck battles, or fight through contact.

He relies on blowing the offensive zone early to gain a step or two on the defender so he is able to get behind them and use his quick release to beat the goalie. He does have good vision and can find teammates with quick passes in the neutral zone, but then he rarely follows the play up. He also turns the puck over quite a bit when trying to break out of his zone, on the times he actually doesn't fly the zone early.

I used to be a big Kessel fan and appreciated his play, but now it is just tiresome watching him play. He hasn't changed his game up one bit since he's been in Toronto, he doesn't drive the net or even hang around by the net, unless it's on the PP. Also, he doesn't seem like a very bright guy, although many will disagree. For a player like him, who apparently despises the media and knows how brutal they can be, why on gods earth would he openly admit that he skated MAYBE 10 times all summer? Especially when the biggest criticism of him is that he doesn't show a consistent work ethic and doesn't seem to care. Just because he says he cares and loves to win, how about he shows it once in a while. Scoring the 5th goal in a 6-2 win and then go silent for games on end does not equate to really trying or caring. I'm sure Phil loves to play hockey in Toronto as he knows if they ever do get successful, he will be a god here, but he doesn't seem to actually want to put the work in to achieve said success.

So no, my "beliefs" on Kessel are not just based on being negative, but on reality. If you can't see this with Kessel, hockey is not your sport. You may like watching hockey and love the Leafs, but that doesn't mean you actually understand and know what you're watching.

 

[silentbob37*]

Certainly the 2nd best goal scorer and I'd put him behind crosby and ovechkin as the 3rd best forward (considering what he has to work with as a center). Top 5 player in the world for sure I'd say too, hard to really rank someone accurately as "the best player."

No and No.

 

[080]

I don't think so. I can name two players on every (well almost every) team in the league that I would rather have on my team than Kessel.

He has the potential to be in the same mention as Crosby et al. but simply isn't there because of his commitment to fitness and the way he plays the game.

I would say in terms of players in the NHL he's probably somewhere between 50-60. edit: if we're just looking at forwards, I'd say it's much lower than that but I think I can still pick at least one forward on many teams that I'd rather have over Kessel.

 

[Caesium]

Kessel has a top 5 snapshot in the world, that's about it. He has a high top speed but rarely uses it and never challenges anyone to get closer to the net. He's a very containable player who is atrocious defensively, nonexistent on the forecheck, and plays with no physicality. There are probably at least 20 guys in the NHL better than he is. I wouldn't really fight it too much if someone told me he was ranked under 30 in the world on their list.

 

[BlueBaron]

Nah it is based on actually watching Kessel play hockey. Stange eh? I admit the team is not good defensively, but that is due in large part to Kessel and JVR, two of the players who play top minutes for us and are bad without the puck.

Explain to me what Kessel does good? He is strong on the PP where he is given time and space to make a play, which he normally is pretty good at. He can use his vision and passing abilities to open up lanes for his teammates, or he can use his quick release to beat the goalie or generate a rebound.

In 5 on 5 play, the majority of the play, Kessel is very ineffective. He is weak in his own zone without the puck, but is also weak in the offensive and neurtal zone as well when he doesn't have the puck. Everyone wants a puck possession team, but you can't play a cycle game along the boards with Kessel on your line, because he simply won't play hard along the wall and try and win puck battles, or fight through contact.

He relies on blowing the offensive zone early to gain a step or two on the defender so he is able to get behind them and use his quick release to beat the goalie. He does have good vision and can find teammates with quick passes in the neutral zone, but then he rarely follows the play up. He also turns the puck over quite a bit when trying to break out of his zone, on the times he actually doesn't fly the zone early.

I used to be a big Kessel fan and appreciated his play, but now it is just tiresome watching him play. He hasn't changed his game up one bit since he's been in Toronto, he doesn't drive the net or even hang around by the net, unless it's on the PP. Also, he doesn't seem like a very bright guy, although many will disagree. For a player like him, who apparently despises the media and knows how brutal they can be, why on gods earth would he openly admit that he skated MAYBE 10 times all summer? Especially when the biggest criticism of him is that he doesn't show a consistent work ethic and doesn't seem to care. Just because he says he cares and loves to win, how about he shows it once in a while. Scoring the 5th goal in a 6-2 win and then go silent for games on end does not equate to really trying or caring. I'm sure Phil loves to play hockey in Toronto as he knows if they ever do get successful, he will be a god here, but he doesn't seem to actually want to put the work in to achieve said success.

So no, my "beliefs" on Kessel are not just based on being negative, but on reality. If you can't see this with Kessel, hockey is not your sport. You may like watching hockey and love the Leafs, but that doesn't mean you actually understand and know what you're watching.

Ok, you are treading into bizarre territory. By watching Kessel (which presumably we all do) you have concluded he either was getting lucky all those years (while he is just now entering his prime) or he has suddenly become worse ?

You were right about one thing. it is strange.

 

[BlueBaron]

I don't think so. I can name two players on every (well almost every) team in the league that I would rather have on my team than Kessel.

He has the potential to be in the same mention as Crosby et al. but simply isn't there because of his commitment to fitness and the way he plays the game.

I would say in terms of players in the NHL he's probably somewhere between 50-60. edit: if we're just looking at forwards, I'd say it's much lower than that but I think I can still pick at least one forward on many teams that I'd rather have over Kessel.

This does not mean they are better players, more than likely it just means you have an irrational dislike of Kessel.

 

[Al14]

Kessel has a top 5 snapshot in the world, that's about it. He has a high top speed but rarely uses it and never challenges anyone to get closer to the net. He's a very containable player who is atrocious defensively, nonexistent on the forecheck, and plays with no physicality. There are probably at least 20 guys in the NHL better than he is. I wouldn't really fight it too much if someone told me he was ranked under 30 un the world on their list.

Right on the money, IMHO.

You said he plays with no physicality, however, you might have also mentioned how afraid he is of contact. He is also easily intimidated into coughing up the puck.

 

[080]

This does not mean they are better players, more than likely it just means you have an irrational dislike of Kessel.

Define a better player. I define it as someone who helps my team to win hockey games.

Below is a list of all the forwards (and I left a number of iffy candidates off whom one could argue should be included) that I think would give a team a better chance to win than Kessel. Kessel may be a better offensive player than some but he is a worse overall player.

I simply opened up TSN and looked at the list of NHL teams; this took me a grand total of about 3 minutes. While there may be some debate about some of them, overall the list is fairly agreeable I would think.

pacioretty
stamkos
datsyuk
zetterbeg
johnson
nash
stepan
bergeron
krejci
bjugstad
tavares
malkin
crosby
backstrom
ovechkin
giroux
vorachek
johansen
foligno
staal
forsberg
neal
steen
schwartz
tarasenko
backes
kane
toews
hossa
parise
wheeler
little
ROR
landeskog
duchene
getzlaf
perry
sedin x2
gudreau
kopitar
carter
pavelski
couture
hall

 

[Bomber0104]

Bump.

Just one short year ago, it seems like the vast majority of posters here had Kessel as a top 10 forward in the NHL. Something to think about before we blame him for everything that is wrong with this organization and ship him out of town for a B prospect and a late 1st round pick.

A few very ill-thought out opinions from a handful of individuals now equals "the vast majority of posters here" ?

Really?

Well anyway, my answer remains unchanged from what it was....

Not even close.

Posters who value all-round ability and defensive play understand Kessel is not even approaching being a top 10 forward, nevermind a top 5 player in the world.

 

[BlueBaron]

Define a better player. I define it as someone who helps my team to win hockey games.

Below is a list of all the forwards (and I left a number of iffy candidates off whom one could argue should be included) that I think would give a team a better chance to win than Kessel. Kessel may be a better offensive player than some but he is a worse overall player.

I simply opened up TSN and looked at the list of NHL teams; this took me a grand total of about 3 minutes. While there may be some debate about some of them, overall the list is fairly agreeable I would think.

pacioretty
stamkos
datsyuk
zetterbeg
johnson
nash
stepan
bergeron
krejci
bjugstad
tavares
malkin
crosby
backstrom
ovechkin
giroux
vorachek
johansen
foligno
staal
forsberg
neal
steen
schwartz
tarasenko
backes
kane
toews
hossa
parise
wheeler
little
ROR
landeskog
duchene
getzlaf
perry
sedin x2
gudreau
kopitar
carter
pavelski
couture
hall

The bolded are just ridiculous. I won't bother to point out the past their prime types It is a pretty desperate list .

 

[Gary Nylund]

This just goes to show you how uninformed and uneducated the average poster on HF is if they truly every believed Kessel was anywhere close to top 5 player in the league. Just because he puts up points doesn't mean he is top 5, let alone top 20. People only look at stats and assume that because a player has great numbers, he's a great player. You have to be a seriously flawed player to go point per game, yet still finish minus. I'm not a big plus/minus fan at all, but when it outlies that much, it does reflect something. Kessel might be top 5 when it simply comes to rushing down the wing and letting a snap shot go, that will only go in here and there.

I believe unless Kessel changes the way he approaches and plays the game to an extent, his days of 70 plus points will be behind him, or if he does, it will be from feasting on the PP.

I think the discussion was about him being top 5 forward, not top 5 player.

Player evaluations fluctuate, a top 10 or top 20 list will change year to year, guaranteed.

I think it's fair to say that Kessel's stock has dropped this year. While calling him a top 5 forward a year ago was probably a case of overrating him, saying he has dropped out of the top 40 is probably underrating him as well.

Of course there is more to player evaluation than counting points. If you wanted to go by stats alone, you'd have to consider dozens of numbers and come up with some formula that weights them (and puts them in context) appropriately before you came up with something that came close to being accurate. Still better than the eye-test though. And plus/minus is close to being completely useless IMO.

 

[BlueBaron]

A few very ill-thought out opinions from a handful of individuals now equals "the vast majority of posters here" ?

Really?

Well anyway, my answer remains unchanged from what it was....



Posters who value all-round ability and defensive play understand Kessel is not even approaching being a top 10 forward, nevermind a top 5 player in the world.

I think most who would support that are talking about his offense. This is the problem with these discussions. What does best mean ? If we are talking just talent ? None will deny he is a top talent. If you want to break it up into a bunch of categories than you will get a bunch of different answers.

Funny thing though. No one ever says a word about Kessel's contract because it is generally considered market value. Even fans of other teams who clearly hate the leafs never say he is over paid.

So if he is worth 8 mil which is among the highest paid players in the league that does suggest he is among the best in the things people value the most.

 

[Gary Nylund]

A few very ill-thought out opinions from a handful of individuals now equals "the vast majority of posters here" ?

Really?

Well anyway, my answer remains unchanged from what it was....

Posters who value all-round ability and defensive play understand Kessel is not even approaching being a top 10 forward, nevermind a top 5 player in the world.

Ok vast majority is maybe overstating it, how about "clear majority"? Read the first few pages of this thread. Seems to me like most had him somewhere in the top 10.

 

[thewave]

Top 10 point getter
Top 10 play maker
Top 10 speed
Top 10 shot
Top 10 reliability
Bottom 100 physicality
Bottom 100 defensively

Overall game I would probably put him in the 20-30 range because the defensive play is so terrible it drags him down that much.

 

[Bomber0104]

Ok vast majority is maybe overstating it, how about "clear majority"? Read the first few pages of this thread. Seems to me like most had him somewhere in the top 10.

****Most of the posters who decided to post in this thread**** had him in the top 10...

Until you bumped this thread, it had 50 points.

Meanwhile most reasonable posters ignored it entirely and didn't feel the need to point out how ridiculous a question it is.

Yet you use it as some sort of "proof" that Kessel shouldn't be traded.

Only you.

 

[Bomber0104]

The bolded are just ridiculous. I won't bother to point out the past their prime types It is a pretty desperate list .

Kessel is better than Backes?

 

[-DeMo-]

I think most who would support that are talking about his offense. This is the problem with these discussions. What does best mean ? If we are talking just talent ? None will deny he is a top talent. If you want to break it up into a bunch of categories than you will get a bunch of different answers.

Funny thing though. No one ever says a word about Kessel's contract because it is generally considered market value. Even fans of other teams who clearly hate the leafs never say he is over paid.

So if he is worth 8 mil which is among the highest paid players in the league that does suggest he is among the best in the things people value the most.

you get paid in the NHL mostly for offense which is what kessel excels at.

 

[Gary Nylund]

****Most of the posters who decided to post in this thread**** had him in the top 10...

Until you bumped this thread, it had 50 points.

Meanwhile most reasonable posters ignored it entirely and didn't feel the need to point out how ridiculous a question it is.

Yet you use it as some sort of "proof" that Kessel shouldn't be traded.

Only you.

Because you are fully capable of knowing what people think about threads they don't post in. Awesome. Only you!

 

[Tak7]

He's one of the top wingers, and goal scorers, in the game.

His true appreciation won't occur until he's out of this hell-hole.