Proposal: Kessel for Saad

[mpp9]

Bozak's signed beyond next season.......

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

In my opinion, Kessel's resurgence can be attributed to several factors; Kessel finally getting comfortable, Hagelin being able to do the grunt work on that line at a speed to match Kessel's, and Bonino's backseat role on that line.

I know Kessel is at his best when he's carrying the puck, controlling the pace with his speed, and pushing defenders back on the rush to get room to utilize his release. I know Sid and Geno also need to be the guy driving the line with the puck on their stick in order to be at their best. Sid and Geno love to set up their wingers for one-timers, which Kessel does not have the comfort level or capability to do.

A year ago, I was adamantly against the idea of having Sid, Geno and Kessel on separate lines, but after seeing how things played out this past season I don't think it's even a discussion anymore. It's three separate lines moving forward, it has to be. Not that I think Kessel would be horrible on a line with either of them, but he wouldn't be at his best (and neither would they, imo).

We're still in need of wingers for Sid and Geno, but the difference is that our depth covers for potential or significant weaknesses on the LW (Sheary/Wilson, and Kunitz respectively). If Rust can keep up his play from the playoffs, not even production-wise, he can be a hugely important piece moving forward. He can play either wing, and I think he can fill the Hagelin role really well. If Sprong develops as we hope he will, a Rust-Sprong combo could end up being phenomenal for us down the line.

As for Kessel v. Saad, it's really just a matter of opinion. Either you believe Saad's presence with Sid or Geno on the LW is better for this team overall, or you think Kessel carrying his own legit 3rd scoring line is better for this team overall. For me, personally, I believe Kessel is the right choice. Tough to argue with the results we saw from Phil and his line from March until June. While I do believe Saad's a great player and would be a godsend to this team and it's LW issues, I wouldn't move Kessel for him. I would try to pry him out of Columbus with utmost desperation if that situation doesn't get any better and it's made clear he's available though, that's for damn sure.

 

[Zero Pucks]

I don't understand why this has to be such a priority.

There are a lot of ways to win. Move Kessel up and rebuild your bottom six in another way if Bonino (when Bonino) chases the money. Concentrate on speed, tenacity and a brutal forecheck, instead. Instead of looking for offensive fireworks from your flipping third line... maybe just look for possession and pinning the puck deep to tire the other team out. Or hell... go a completely different direction and go with size and nasty -- it works in this league, as well.

I'm not at all coming down on you and I know I'm sounding like a broken record but some of this tunnel vision is really, really reminiscent of the last Cup win.

Because Bonino was a huge bargain with his contract considering what he brought, the role he played, and his fit next to Kessel. It's going to be like hunting a unicorn to try and replace that for about the same price in free agency. If we're going to load up our top 6 and rebuild the bottom 6, then I'd rather have Saad. I think he's a better fit with Crosby or Malkin and who do we have at LW that could play in the top 6? Maybe Wilson? Maybe Guentzel? We have Hornqvist, Rust, and Sprong at RW.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I can't really disagree with that.

I just don't think it needs to be required to go hunt down the "next Bonino." Bonino is a good player, no doubt. But people are vastly overselling his importance. And I'm a fan and defended him even during his doldrums, last year.

I certainly don't think he's worth throwing 5M at, or whatever insanity people are talking.

 

[Zero Pucks]

This season could determine a lot. Maybe a guy like Simon or Guentzel. Maybe a similarly undervalued center next summer.

Fortunately, we don't have to make any decisions on that until after the season.

I think Simon has that potential too. Sucks Vermette didn't get bought out until after next season, he could of been a solid replacement at 1.75.

 

[JTG]

Amazing how many of you failed this test.

Straight up trade for basically 2 equal players (now), but one hasn't hit his prime yet, and the other is just over his peak. Saad also has a lower cap hit. You take this trade all day if your goal is to win hockey games in the future.

You hold your laughs at CBJ until Phil (who was great for us) is 33 (and almost worthless) and Saad is only 28 and still very productive. Saad hasn't even hit his 25-28yo peak yet. These days will happen and make you look like a genius for taking this trade. Similar in concept to the PK-Weber trade, but not as extreme.

http://public.tableau.com/shared/F9TKFZDBP?:display_count=yes

You're passing opinion off as fact. And your opinion is wrong.

What makes you believe Phil Kessel will be washed up at 33? Nothing in his game suggests that.

Saad isn't the goal scorer Kessel is. He never will be.

 

[JTG]

Just to play Devil's advocate for a minute, that's how Kessel was viewed (by everyone but Burke) when he was in Boston. In retrospect, that perception was wrong, but that didn't become clear until a year or two of big production with Tyler Bozak.

Saad doesn't have a skill set that is typical of your star winger that can carry a line. Kessel always had it. Saad isn't a game breaker. Phil Kessel has been a game breaker since he was on the radar at 15 years old.

Kessel's skill was never the question...Kessel's mental capability was.

 

[JTG]

And none of this is suggesting I'd completely scoff at the idea of trading Kessel for Saad. It depends on the team. I just don't think with how this team is set up, you roll with Phil all the way.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I can't really disagree with that.

I just don't think it needs to be required to go hunt down the "next Bonino." Bonino is a good player, no doubt. But people are vastly overselling his importance. And I'm a fan and defended him even during his doldrums, last year.

I certainly don't think he's worth throwing 5M at, or whatever insanity people are talking.

Bones was really good in our Cup run (even better than he gets credit for, IMO), but yeah, we shouldn't be paying him in the 5 mil range. Either he takes a huge haircut to stick around, or we cut bait.

I think Simon has that potential too. Sucks Vermette didn't get bought out until after next season, he could of been a solid replacement at 1.75.

Yeah, but there are often bargains to be found. Never know who might have a down year to open up a buy-low situation.

 

[Shady Machine]

Bones at 4MM is fine with me. Anything over that and I'd say goodbye. Of course, he could not be as good this year as he was down the stretch and I could change my mind on paying him 4MM.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Bones at 4MM is fine with me. Anything over that and I'd say goodbye. Of course, he could not be as good this year as he was down the stretch and I could change my mind on paying him 4MM.

Totally agree. 4M is about the max price we can justify paying him if he's as good as he was post-Johnston, and that's almost criminally low.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

4M is still borderline laughable, to me.

Much of Bonino's appeal is, or should be, that he is capable of putting up the performance he did last post season but still not cost your team, say... a potential upgrade in the scoring line wing department. Which a 4M commitment to the third line probably would.

I also don't think it's prudent to extrapolate his whole-season performance based on his post season. With or without the H and K in HBK. Bonino has long been considered a clutch playoff performer, remember. But not necessarily a regular season demon.

I get that 4M is "cheap" for a badass third line center in this league. But I don't know if this team can afford to pay a badass third line center with Crosby's and Malkin's lines looking like they do going into their fading years. But I also get that this is sort of all an exercise in differing team-building approaches. If we want to be that, uh, special team that decides concentrating on building a 15+ million dollar third line is the path to success, well... I guess I did just say there are lots of ways to win...

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

4M is still borderline laughable, to me.

Much of Bonino's appeal is, or should be, that he is capable of putting up the performance he did last post season but still not cost your team, say... a potential upgrade in the scoring line wing department. Which a 4M commitment to the third line probably would.

I also don't think it's prudent to extrapolate his whole-season performance based on his post season. With or without the H and K in HBK. Bonino has long been considered a clutch playoff performer, remember. But not necessarily a regular season demon.

I get that 4M is "cheap" for a badass third line center in this league. But I don't know if this team can afford to pay a badass third line center with Crosby's and Malkin's lines looking like they do going into their fading years. But I also get that this is sort of all an exercise in differing team-building approaches. If we want to be that, uh, special team that decides concentrating on building a 15+ million dollar third line is the path to success, well... I guess I did just say there are lots of ways to win...

I wouldn't re-sign him to a 4 mil deal this summer, for sure, but this season will determine a lot. How HBK fare over the course of a season, how Sid and Geno make due with those wingers, how the young guys progress, etc.

For all we know Guentzel and Sprong could come in and tear it up on the wings, and we'd have the extra cash to sign Bones no problem.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I actually thought Crosby-Kessel looked worse than Malkin-Kessel although I believe Malkin-Kessel was given more time. Crosby and Kessel were overpassing the hell out of the puck early on. Each desperately wanting to defer to the other, for whatever reason. Crosby's passes also looked like they were going to break that limp noodle of a stick Kessel uses (or just bend it in half). The 3 of them seemed to figure each other out better as time went on, but I'm not convinced Kessel with either of them full time is the best use of their talents. I'm not convinced it's not either.

Kessel just looked pretty bad early, which is mostly when he played with sid. They played one game together when geno and bones were out. It was against Detroit and kessel scored two goals. They were great that game. Then Cullen centered kessel the next game.

I think sid and kessel would be amazing together. Hagelin too. I don't think I'd set up with that because horny is just so much better with sid than without him, but I really think hags sid kessel would likely be the best line in the league.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I wouldn't re-sign him to a 4 mil deal this summer, for sure, but this season will determine a lot. How HBK fare over the course of a season, how Sid and Geno make due with those wingers, how the young guys progress, etc.

For all we know Guentzel and Sprong could come in and tear it up on the wings, and we'd have the extra cash to sign Bones no problem.

That's fair and reasonable.

I mean... for all I know... Malkin goes down with a huge injury and Bonino flawlessly steps into his spot and disembowels the league. I just kinda doubt it. Uh... at least the latter part.

 

[mpp9]

I'm pretty confident we only need one of 87/71 to be on their game and HBK to get a playoff spot. For matchups in the playoffs, we'll need all three of the big guns.

Crosby with PH and the rotation of guys we can provide him should be enough for him to have a good season.

Malkin's line will be the question mark. JR can and should be monitoring trade possibilities if he's struggling.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I'd rather trade for Bozak than re-sign Bonino at $4 million. Bonino isn't a $4 million player unless he's playing with Kessel. If he has a great season with Kessel, I'd just tell him "good job and good luck" while some stupid team gives him a 5 year, $27.5 million contract. Around $3.25 million would be really ideal for Bonino, I don't think I'd go above that. You could put a cheap, $2 million dollar 3rd line center between Hagelin and Kessel and still have it be effective.

 

[mpp9]

I disagree that Hagelin is a bigger component than Bonino for Kessel. Hagelin has more versatility since he can slide up to 87 or 71's line, but I think they're pretty equal in value to our team that serve different roles.

Hagelin causes chaos. Bonino gets the puck to Kessel and out of the D-zone. If I were to bet who was going to be more productive this season, its Bonino. Just like in the playoffs. He has a bit more precision in his passing and shot than Hagelin.

 

[Gurglesons]

I disagree that Hagelin is a bigger component than Bonino for Kessel. Hagelin has more versatility since he can slide up to 87 or 71's line, but I think they're pretty equal in value to our team that serve different roles.

Hagelin causes chaos. Bonino gets the puck to Kessel and out of the D-zone. If I were to bet who was going to be more productive this season, its Bonino. Just like in the playoffs. He has a bit more precision in his passing and shot than Hagelin.

Yeah, the thing is that we have two centers that get paid 9+ mil to be the precision passers.

I really don't see the issue if Bonino is asking for a lot to let him walk and just play Hags and Kessel with Malkin in-between. They looked fine whenever we rolled that during last season.

I think Malkin and Kessel could easily develop a give and go relationship like him and Neal did, especially if he has a **** storm on the left side in Hagelin. It is almost identical to what Kunitz - Malkin - Neal was all about.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I disagree that Hagelin is a bigger component than Bonino for Kessel. Hagelin has more versatility since he can slide up to 87 or 71's line, but I think they're pretty equal in value to our team that serve different roles.

Hagelin causes chaos. Bonino gets the puck to Kessel and out of the D-zone. If I were to bet who was going to be more productive this season, its Bonino. Just like in the playoffs. He has a bit more precision in his passing and shot than Hagelin.

I agree Bonino will likely produce more than Hagelin, at least if HBK stays together all year. I disagree that Bonino is a bigger component to Kessel than Hagelin. Like Hornqvist, I think Hagelin contributes to a lot of scoring that he doesn't get points for. Hagelin being able to keep up with Kessel is huge. He can stretch the ice out so much. Without another burner on the other side, Kessel would end up on an island after a lot of Bonino's passes out of the d-zone. And Hagelin isn't just fast, but he's just skilled enough that he's dangerous. I think it would be easier to find someone who can make passes to Kessel from the D zone then it would be to replace Hagelin.

 

[mpp9]

I think we have an equal chance of being able to replace Hagelin internally as Bonino. Sheary kept up fine with Sid. Wilson auditioned well with both Sid and Kessel. Rust looks like a guy who fits the mold perfectly. And can play LW.

You have to look to our next wave of prospects to find anyone who can replace Bonino. And they may be better wingers.

And I have no interest in seeing Hagelin leave.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I think we have an equal chance of being able to replace Hagelin internally as Bonino. Sheary kept up fine with Sid. Wilson auditioned well with both Sid and Kessel. Rust looks like a guy who fits the mold perfectly. And can play LW.

You have to look to our next wave of prospects to find anyone who can replace Bonino. And they may be better wingers.

And I have no interest in seeing Hagelin leave.

I don't think you need to look at prospects to replace players. But sure, if we are limited to internal replacements, I guess I agree.

Really it depends if Bones can play like he did in the playoffs all year, or at least like that again in the playoffs. That was a significantly higher level than he's ever played before. Here's hoping, because he was really damn good.

 

[CertifiedLurker]

So who's a good center for Kessel that we can fit under the cap if Bonino moves on and the Pens decide to keep him on his own line?

I'm saying if Bonino goes and your plan is to just swap Kessel with Saad to play on line 1 or 2 with Malkin/Crosby you could just not do that at all and move Kessel up. I've seen nothing yet that says he couldn't play just as well if not better with either of them under Sullivan. Kessel doesn't need Bonino, and until I've seen it crash and burn under Sullivan I'll continue to subscribe to that point of view.

If there isn't a center to get to do what Bonino does on the third line, don't relegate Kessel to the third line. Seems simple to me. I don't even see why its an absolute necessity. You're basically saying Kessel has no use unless its on the third line, which I just don't think is true.

 

[Ogrezilla]

delete

 

[mpp9]

If we could retain Bonino for 4.25 or so, Im down. He was every bit as important to our playoff run as PH.

You do it with the understanding that we're rolling three scoring lines. And you'll need to trust kids on ELCs to fill out the lineup.