Proposal: Kessel for Saad

[Shady Machine]

I'm not sure how you've reached the conclusion on SCH being better than HCK considering HCK was never even played the entire season aside from a glancing shift and every other situation involving Crosby and Kessel was pretty much under Johnston.

You're right, I certainly don't KNOW that it would be better. That's why it's my opinion. We will never know if I'm right or wrong since these trades won't happen. To me, Hornqvist is a great compliment to Sid so you are already starting with a great base. Is Crosby-Hornqvist better than Crosby-Kessel? In the time we saw them together (yes I know MJ factor and all), Crosby-Hornqvist was the better combo. Crosby-Kessel didn't really mesh but with two highly talented guys that want to the puck a lot, it will likely take a longer time to build that chemistry. I never saw that chemistry, but it could certainly work if given more time.

Then you are adding Saad, a guy that can skate, plays LW, is good at both ends, can bury the puck, and has pretty soft hands. He seems like a really low maintenance player that can read off of superstars well and go to the right areas. I just really believe he and Crosby would be a great combo. I don't have proof, obviously, but I can just imagine Hornqvist battling in front and Crosby and Saad working their magic in the offensive zone.

Hagelin-Kessel combo is more of a speed off the rush kind of line. Not that they can't grind, but a lot of their success came from Hagelin and Kessel busting out of the zone with speed while Bones took a shot off his foot, corralled the puck and head manned it to them. That would probably be the fastest line in the league, but not sure it fits into Crosby's best game.

 

[Shady Machine]

It's actually just a contrasting opinion. People said the idea that Hornqvist wasn't good with Geno in '14-'15 was "pure myth" too...until it was proven correct the following season.

Both players are stars, so they're going to get some looks and points. But they never seemed in sync to me - both like carrying the play, and both are pass-first types. Geno seems to do better with Neal-types who find soft spots in coverage then grip-and-rip it, and Kessel seems to do better with economical centers who can make smart little plays.

I actually thought Crosby-Kessel looked worse than Malkin-Kessel although I believe Malkin-Kessel was given more time. Crosby and Kessel were overpassing the hell out of the puck early on. Each desperately wanting to defer to the other, for whatever reason. Crosby's passes also looked like they were going to break that limp noodle of a stick Kessel uses (or just bend it in half). The 3 of them seemed to figure each other out better as time went on, but I'm not convinced Kessel with either of them full time is the best use of their talents. I'm not convinced it's not either.

 

[Shady Machine]

The difference is that you're attributing that to bad luck, and I'm attributing it to different strengths.

Kessel was getting looks that Neal would have nailed, because Neal can one-time a puck with pinpoint accuracy. Kessel, for all the skills he has that Neal doesn't, clearly has a lot more trouble getting off a quick release when stationary because of his wet noodle stick. It's the same reason he doesn't work as a pure triggerman on the PP.

Kessel and Malkin are exceptionally skilled, but putting them together is an inefficient use of their talents.

I'm sort of in a wait and see mode still on that. I tend to agree with you, but I think we need more time to determine if that's really true.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

I'd hope not. Saad is probably a better winger for Crosby/Malkin in the sense that he wouldn't want/need the puck on his stick as much as Kessel does, and I think he's a little more Neal like with his shot. But Saad could not carry a line like Kessel did these past playoffs. And that was a key reason why we just won a cup. Teams focused against Crosby and Malkin (at least at first) and Kessel ate them up. So while having Saad play with 87/71 would be nice, I don't see a reason why we'd make a major change with a key piece that just won us a cup.



Saad is much more Neal like, in that the majority of his offense needs to be generated by his center. He'll create a little on his own and finish a lot of what his center creates... but he's nothing like Kessel when it comes to actually creating offense.

Absolutely the case all around. And when teams began to focus more on HBK, Geno's line outright won some key games for us, look at Tampa game 7.

 

[Zero Pucks]

Don't think I'd do it right now. I'd like to see HBK run wild for a whole season. If Bonino moves on next season, then I possibly would.

 

[CertifiedLurker]

Don't think I'd do it right now. I'd like to see HBK run wild for a whole season. If Bonino moves on next season, then I possibly would.

Yikes, the implication being Kessel needs Bonino to play to the level Kessel has historically been known to play to?

 

[Ziggyjoe21]

Bull ****. That's simply incorrect. Kessel was bad while the whole team was bad. From January on, Kessel was good with or without Bonino. He was good with Geno. He was good with Cullen. Hell, right before Geno got hurt, Hags-Geno-Kessel was playing great hockey.

Bonino works well with Kessel, and it allows us to have a great matchup with them split up like this. I think overall its the best well to build our team. But there's also no doubt in my mind that Hagelin-Geno-Kessel is a better line than Hagelin-Bonino-Kessel. But the 2nd line doesn't gain as much as the 3rd line would lose in that situation, so its not the best way to build the team.

But seriously, Bonino isn't some magician who makes Kessel work. Hagelin and Sullivan both had more to do with it than Bones, but ultimately Kessel is the reason Kessel turned his season around.

Yes almost everyone looked bad under Johnston. But no one looked Kessel bad.

Some players perform better when they're the go-to guy. That's why Sid and Geno never look good together. That's why Kessel didn't look good with either Sid or Geno.

Bonino and Hags are passengers on that line while PK gets to do his thing and not have to worry about the little things like playing defense and board battles.

I am really curious how the talent will be divided during the regular season. Geno and Sid will be having mental break downs and demanding trades if they are forced to spend 82 games with guys like Rust and Sheary.

 

[CanadianPensFan1]

Yikes, the implication being Kessel needs Bonino to play to the level Kessel has historically been known to play to?

Huh? *re-reads Zero's post*

I dont think that was the implication at all haha

 

[Zero Pucks]

Yikes, the implication being Kessel needs Bonino to play to the level Kessel has historically been known to play to?

Not really.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Kessel and Malkin are exceptionally skilled, but putting them together is an inefficient use of their talents.

I like that word usage, here. I have another example:

Having Evgeni Malkin play decoy with a 37 year old has-been and a rotating cast of whatever for an entire season is an inefficient use of 9.5 million dollars.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I'm sort of in a wait and see mode still on that. I tend to agree with you, but I think we need more time to determine if that's really true.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure they'd still produce well because of the talent involved, but they don't really exploit one another's strengths.

Geno and Neal did, like Bonino and Kessel do.

 

[CertifiedLurker]

Huh? *re-reads Zero's post*

I dont think that was the implication at all haha

If the reason you lean on moving Kessel is because Bonino leaves, thats kind of the implication. Bonino being there shouldn't really have any influence on that decision.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I like that word usage, here. I have another example:

Having Evgeni Malkin play decoy with a 37 year old has-been and a rotating cast of whatever for an entire season is an inefficient use of 9.5 million dollars.

Wonder what we could do to address that?

 

[T1K]

Definitely not

 

[Shady Machine]

Not really.

What is the implication then? I really don't know how else you could interpret that.

 

[billybudd]

My view is that Saad isn't a player that makes a line...he's a compliment. You're not going to put him in the same position you'd put Kessel in and see him thrive.

Just to play Devil's advocate for a minute, that's how Kessel was viewed (by everyone but Burke) when he was in Boston. In retrospect, that perception was wrong, but that didn't become clear until a year or two of big production with Tyler Bozak.

I'm not saying Saad's for certain the same way, exactly, just that he's passed the first test.

I was very surprised to see him produce 31 last year. I've tried a few different dives at the stats, but his shooting percentage was only slightly over his career average, and his PP production wasn't a huge outlier either.

But given Saad's increase in his career percentage, and Phil's off year, Phil is probably going to pot 30 next year, and Saad just under. But Phil has the advantage when it comes to creating a volume of shots (I fully expect 300 shots next year), and in primary assists. That drives line production.

For my money, I'd prefer Phil on this team during Sid and Geno's realistic cup window. And after that, as mpp9 says, who really cares.

That's all fair.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

What is the implication then? I really don't know how else you could interpret that.

 

[Zero Pucks]

If the reason you lean on moving Kessel is because Bonino leaves, thats kind of the implication. Bonino being there shouldn't really have any influence on that decision.

Saad being younger and filling a position we have little depth are factors. If we can find another solid two-way center with a sub 2 million dollar cap-hit that Kessel can mesh with just as well as Bonino, then by all means keep him.

 

[DoktorZaius]

What is the implication then? I really don't know how else you could interpret that.

We haven't seen enough evidence to know that Kessel is a good fit with Sid or Geno and without Bonino on the team, he'd be playing with one of them.

In short, the argument is that it's entirely possible that Brandon Saad is a better fit with our top two centers than Phil Kessel.

 

[Shady Machine]

This is perfect.

 

[CertifiedLurker]

We haven't seen enough evidence to know that Kessel is a good fit with Sid or Geno and without Bonino on the team, he'd be playing with one of them.

In short, the argument is that it's entirely possible that Brandon Saad is a better fit with our top two centers than Phil Kessel.

Well of course that could be true, but as you said yourself, we haven't seen enough to know if Kessel is a good fit. The fact that Bonino plays well with Kessel is meaningless unless you know for a fact that Kessel can't play well away from Bonino.

What I've seen under Sullivan and what I've seen of Kessel historically, indicates to me that he doesn't need to play with a Bonino to be effective. We already know in the small sample he's played with Malkin under Sullivan he can be effective there. I don't think there's been enough seen between Crosby and Kessel to form an opinion either way.

All I'm saying is I wouldn't base trading Kessel for Saad on Bonino being on the roster just yet unless I was sure Kessel couldn't play with anybody else (which I believe to be unlikely).

 

[PensandCaps]

Aint broke, dont dont fix it. Keep kessel. For that 3 line attack in the playoffs. With saad, you dont get that. Kessel can drive a line by himself, saad cant, and would be on sids wing anyway.

 

[Zero Pucks]

Well of course that could be true, but as you said yourself, we haven't seen enough to know if Kessel is a good fit. The fact that Bonino plays well with Kessel is meaningless unless you know for a fact that Kessel can't play well away from Bonino.

What I've seen under Sullivan and what I've seen of Kessel historically, indicates to me that he doesn't need to play with a Bonino to be effective. We already know in the small sample he's played with Malkin under Sullivan he can be effective there. I don't think there's been enough seen between Crosby and Kessel to form an opinion either way.

All I'm saying is I wouldn't base trading Kessel for Saad on Bonino being on the roster just yet unless I was sure Kessel couldn't play with anybody else (which I believe to be unlikely).

So who's a good center for Kessel that we can fit under the cap if Bonino moves on and the Pens decide to keep him on his own line?

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

So who's a good center for Kessel that we can fit under the cap if Bonino moves on and the Pens decide to keep him on his own line?

I don't understand why this has to be such a priority.

There are a lot of ways to win. Move Kessel up and rebuild your bottom six in another way if Bonino (when Bonino) chases the money. Concentrate on speed, tenacity and a brutal forecheck, instead. Instead of looking for offensive fireworks from your flipping third line... maybe just look for possession and pinning the puck deep to tire the other team out. Or hell... go a completely different direction and go with size and nasty -- it works in this league, as well.

I'm not at all coming down on you and I know I'm sounding like a broken record but some of this tunnel vision is really, really reminiscent of the last Cup win.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

So who's a good center for Kessel that we can fit under the cap if Bonino moves on and the Pens decide to keep him on his own line?

This season could determine a lot. Maybe a guy like Simon or Guentzel. Maybe a similarly undervalued center next summer.

Fortunately, we don't have to make any decisions on that until after the season.