Confirmed with Link: Kent Hughes named GM Part 2 - Oh GM My GM (No political talk)

[BLONG7]

His best sequence in the playoffs had him playing as a fourth or fifth cog. Granted much of it was on the P.P.

Think you are giving him too much credit for a playoff run, but that's just my 2 cents.
Since that little run of 20 games, he has been gun shy to go to the dirty areas and hence we have a soft overpaid winger, who can use some of his skill to set up the odd nice goal.

 

[Miller Time]

Or they need to hit the jackpot when the have the greatest chance of landing a core player. You can either get it right in 2-3 tries with the right amateur scouting staff or you can perpetually suck and eventually probability will dictate you finally get an impact player (see Oilers).

Yeah, and the Oilers highlight that simply adding more lottery picks isn't a recipe for success on its own.

Strong hockey ops, vision to guide when to be aggressive & when to be patient, and the ability to balance building a team according to a desired style of play AND adjusting to the players/prospects in hand.

There's no 1 formula beyond committing to excellence in all areas and building a culture of deep engagement from everyone in the organization.

The tactics and approaches to get there are diverse, the leadership skill required is to accurately assess which ones are best suited/easiest to achieve from where they are today... and the flexibility to adjust as new insights about the internal org. & new external environment opportunities emmerge

 

[Whitesnake]

So again, while fans love the appeal of top picks, in reality, it's the culture, prospect development & talent id that builds contending cores.

Have been having this discussion with you and @417 too and I always said development and picking outside the top picks are just crucial. It is. But I can't see how it's more important than top ends picks. Let just say equally as important. And OF COURSE, if you don't have the luxury to pick top 5 all the time, well you shouldn't wait to get those, and should make freakin sure that your development and overall scouting department have what it needs to be better than everybody else. And make gains elsewhere. As you said, Boston has pretty much had a whole lot of key players outside the top 5. But they still added Kessel. Who gave them Seguin and Hamilton. Yet, they were also abysmal in quite a few 1st rounders. Especially 2015. They had 3 picks that could have made them even better and CLEARLY cup winners for quite a few years before Bergeron and Marchand leaves. Imagine adding Barzal, Chabot and Boeser....

So the picks in themselves are crucial. Then, as a scouting group you need to do what to do with that. And as management, oyu need to know who to trade them for if needed.

I think that while not enticing, this is as grey as we can find. We need to be great at everything. We could benefit like Pittsburgh or Caps did. Or fail like Buffalo and Oilers are doing. Or we could have the perfect mix like Tampa, high picks, development and other picks.

 

[salbutera]

Bergeron is most definitely a #1C, with 4 Selkes and Krecji a low end 1C/ high end #2C.

Well I keep reading need an elite C - Bergeron has never had a PPG season & topped 70-pts once in his entire career .

The reality of the situation is Bergeron / Krejci are definitely top-20C in the league, therefore are 1Cs

 

[WinterLion]

Well I keep reading need an elite C - Bergeron has never had a PPG season & topped 70-pts once in his entire career .

Are you trying to say he isn't elite?

 

[BozoTheClown]

Well I keep reading need an elite C - Bergeron has never had a PPG season & topped 70-pts once in his entire career .

Bergeron is an elite C though. 4 times Selke winner, best face off man in the NHL, .80 PPG in the regular season and .75 PPG in the playoffs. Stanley cup winner and captain of his team.

 

[salbutera]

Are you trying to say he isn't elite?

I’m confused on the definition of elite C - is that Crosby, Malkin, McDavid, Matthews, MacKinnon high point accumulators? or does Bergeron qualify?

 

[Miller Time]

Have been having this discussion with you and @417 too and I always said development and picking outside the top picks are just crucial. It is. But I can't see how it's more important than top ends picks. Let just say equally as important. And OF COURSE, if you don't have the luxury to pick top 5 all the time, well you shouldn't wait to get those, and should make freakin sure that your development and overall scouting department have what it needs to be better than everybody else. And make gains elsewhere. As you said, Boston has pretty much had a whole lot of key players outside the top 5. But they still added Kessel. Who gave them Seguin and Hamilton. Yet, they were also abysmal in quite a few 1st rounders. Especially 2015. They had 3 picks that could have made them even better and CLEARLY cup winners for quite a few years before Bergeron and Marchand leaves. Imagine adding Barzal, Chabot and Boeser....

So the picks in themselves are crucial. Then, as a scouting group you need to do what to do with that. And as management, oyu need to know who to trade them for if needed.

I think that while not enticing, this is as grey as we can find. We need to be great at everything. We could benefit like Pittsburgh or Caps did. Or fail like Buffalo and Oilers are doing. Or we could have the perfect mix like Tampa, high picks, development and other picks.

It's not either or...
It's not "more than"...

It's not even really "equally"...

It's entirely context driven.

It's about properly assessing where you're at and how to proceed most effectively towards the goal.

For example, if we are Coyotes fans, this discussion doesn't exist.

Despite them having a boatload of prospects incoming, and far more cap space to work with this summer, if I were a fan of their team, no way I'd argue for them to add immediate roster reinforcements this summer...

They are perfectly positioned to prioritize tanking for Bedard next year. To do anything short of that would be silly & a wasted opportunity.

We aren't at all in the same situation.

So while I'd fully support it if, after assessing things, Gorton & Hughes pulled a card from the Rangers playbook and openly/directly used the next 18 months to aggressively unload vets and accumulate futures... setting us up to be a lottery team again next year, I don't think that the only, nor even the optimal, approach to get us to that contender window we want.

Price remains the key factor imo... healthy & focused, he makes tanking almost impossible, and trading him before he's had a full (or large chunk) of a season playing at top 10 level seems very unlikely.

If he's out, so be it, dynamic changes as does the best way fwd.

 

[Gravity]

Yeah, and the Oilers highlight that simply adding more lottery picks isn't a recipe for success on its own.

Strong hockey ops, vision to guide when to be aggressive & when to be patient, and the ability to balance building a team according to a desired style of play AND adjusting to the players/prospects in hand.

There's no 1 formula beyond committing to excellence in all areas and building a culture of deep engagement from everyone in the organization.

The tactics and approaches to get there are diverse, the leadership skill required is to accurately assess which ones are best suited/easiest to achieve from where they are today... and the flexibility to adjust as new insights about the internal org. & new external environment opportunities emmerge

Sure and there was no disagreement there as I never said it was a successful strategy on it's on. I said it's succesful when coupled with other facets like solid amateur scouting, development programs and coaching.

 

[WinterLion]

I’m confused on the definition of elite C - is that McDavid, Matthews, MacKinon high point accumulators? or does Bergeron qualify?

I think Bergeron qualifies because of his overall game and consistency. He just does so many things at an elite level. Personally I would prefer that type of #1 C to build around... but I see what you are saying...

 

[BozoTheClown]

15M on UFAs can be
Savard, Armia, Hoffman, Byron

And it can be
Hamilton, Schwartz/Granlund & Perry

The decision makers making wise pro scouting and roster fit decisions when pulling the trigger is the key piece.

Good teams spend money on UFA, bad ones just do it poorly (See MB)

There are a lot of work to do and if it takes 3 years of sucking to turns things around, so be it. I hope management realizes that one good off season won’t turn the franchise around. I see a team that as been trending down the last 6 seasons and the only good season was Price second best career year and we got booted out in the 1st round.

Only a bunch of miracles will take this franchise out of mediocrity and this management doesn’t seem to put the future success of this team base on luck.

 

[JoelWarlord]

I think there's too much being made of whether or not we need to or should tank. I think it's just something we don't really need to be concerned with, we're going to finish ahead of Arizona this year and compete with Seattle to be 30th or 31st, and then the chips will fall where they do. Next year is tough to project because I don't believe this roster is anywhere near this bad on paper, but there's also potentially going to be a lot of moves between now and October 2022 so we don't really know what the roster will look like.

If we're bad again then we'll pick high again and that's that. If we're solid or good next year that means we've had major breakouts from our young core players like Suzuki, Caufield, Romanov, Guhle, 2022 1st rounder, and so on. If those guys can get the team to the bubble playing in front of Allen/Price/Primeau then we don't need to keep tanking in the first place. The only real "bad" outcome is if Price goes supernova and drags a bad group of skaters to 91 points, but otherwise even a resurgence that's led by Petry/Gallagher and other vets is still a good thing for a rebuild because it makes them much more valuable as trade chips.

The way I see it, the team is going through a rebuild phase and the decisions will just be made for us by how they perform next year. Either the current young group of players are good enough to get us out of the basement, or they're not good enough yet and we're going to keep picking high anyway. Just don't think it's worth sitting here in January 2022 and worrying about blowing the team up to secure our draft position for June 2023 when there's all kinds of possibilities between then and now which will make the path forward much clearer.

 

[Miller Time]

I’m confused on the definition of elite C - is that Crosby, Malkin, McDavid, Matthews, MacKinnon high point accumulators? or does Bergeron qualify?

I think of "elite" as referring to top tier at their position....

So 30 teams in the league... top 10 players at each position in any given season would the "elite".

Figure +/- 5 or so, since there's always debate over specific qualities to define ranking players...

A player that comfortably sits on every top 15 list of their respective position.

Id argue Bergeron has consistently been a top 10C in the league throughout his career, definitely top 15 every year... though probably never really top 3 or 5, though some might give him that in his best seasons.


That's my lens... though it's clear many take a broader approach, while some keep it smaller and reserve it for generational level talents

 

[Miller Time]

There are a lot of work to do and if it takes 3 years of sucking to turns things around, so be it. I hope management realizes that one good off season won’t turn the franchise around. I see a team that as been trending down the last 6 seasons and the only good season was Price second best career year and we got booted out in the 1st round.

Only a bunch of miracles will take this franchise out of mediocrity and this management doesn’t seem to put the future success of this team base on luck.

Difficult work, yes. But I don't share your assessment about how much needs to be added to get out of the mediocre level. We have been mediocre for years, absolutely. Mb was an maestro at building for that.

Two solid pieces added (1 top 6 & 1 top 4) and a healthy Price puts this roster right back into the 10-20 range league-wide... from there, quality player development, pro/amateur scouting, and getting a future star with this year's lottery pick, and a contender in 3-4yrs is very feasible

 

[417]

Have been having this discussion with you and @417 too and I always said development and picking outside the top picks are just crucial. It is. But I can't see how it's more important than top ends picks. Let just say equally as important. And OF COURSE, if you don't have the luxury to pick top 5 all the time, well you shouldn't wait to get those, and should make freakin sure that your development and overall scouting department have what it needs to be better than everybody else. And make gains elsewhere. As you said, Boston has pretty much had a whole lot of key players outside the top 5. But they still added Kessel. Who gave them Seguin and Hamilton. Yet, they were also abysmal in quite a few 1st rounders. Especially 2015. They had 3 picks that could have made them even better and CLEARLY cup winners for quite a few years before Bergeron and Marchand leaves. Imagine adding Barzal, Chabot and Boeser....

Just need to clarify something….I have never suggested that later picks are more important than top 3 or 5 picks.

What I said is that wherever you pick, you just can’t miss.

The fact we’ve missed on 2 top 3 picks in the last decade is devastating.

So for me, whether we end up picking 1st or 3rd or 5th or 8th…I really don’t care, I don’t need to see the Habs lose every conceivable game from now until the end of the year in order to secure a #1 pick, in a draft that doesn’t have a generational talent.

Today no one can sit here and tell me that Wright will be better than Cooley or Kemell or Savoie.
So the picks in themselves are crucial.

I think that while not enticing, this is as grey as we can find. We need to be great at everything. We could benefit like Pittsburgh or Caps did. Or fail like Buffalo and Oilers are doing. Or we could have the perfect mix like Tampa, high picks, development and other picks.

And this is it, right now, which is understandable btw, the majority of this fan base focus is on finishing last because “all contending teams have #1 picks” …

I think that’s a very superficial way of examining how certain teams achieved their success.

 

[dcyhabs]

How did st Louis get ROR?
How did Tampa get Kucherov, Point & McDo?
How did Wash get Kuznetsov, Carlson & Oshie?
How did Pitt get Letang, Kessel & Schultz (elite contributors on their last cup win) or Murray (#1G in the one before).

Yes, all of those teams/contenders had 1-2 (3 in Pitts case) top 5 pick players as part of their core... but their contending & cup success absolutely depended on acquiring other elite players via trade, signing or drafting and developing a later pick into a gem.

I explained at length what it might look like to get to that contending window. As far as predicting specific trade or signing over next 2-3yrs... well that's for the trade proposal board.

If you follow the league, you should know that most elite players that change teams tend to do so relatively unexpectedly... the key is having strong leadership that is able to jump on opportunities when they arise, like Gorton did in NYR to land Fox, Zibanejad & Panarin...

Fortunately, we now have that kind of leadership in place.

That was the point Vegas made for Eichel. Star players don't move often so when they do you don't ask questions, you jump, even if there are health questions. You need at least 5-6 guys who can drive play and force the other team to double cover them pretty often. If you have that then players like Caufield and Toffoli start to look good because they can prey on the space left over.

 

[dcyhabs]

I don't know if I'm a lone wolf but so far Caufield has not demonstrated he can be a core player here at this level.

At his age he shouldn't be expected to be a core player. He's coming into the league and it would be fine to shelter him for a year or two, that is if the habs had a team capable of doing so. He's ready to contribute, he's not ready for opposing teams to key on him yet.

Caufield's development is problematic for a number of reasons. The team is terrible so that is affecting his confidence. There is no one for Caufield to play with who can let him play his game, and there are too many other players with similar skills (Hoffman, Toffoli, Drouin) who all need top 6 minutes to shine and none of whom should play on the same line. Suzuki and Caufield can work together as a second line, but Caufield is not ready to play against top defensive lines in the NHL.

All this was set up by MB last year. He let KK and Danault walk with no one to replace them, and he picked up Dvorak who is adequate but not what the habs need, Hoffman who is fine in a vacuum but problematically redundant on the habs, and Savard who is similarly redundant. KK had his flaws but he was one of the few big players on the team who could pass, occupy defenders, and open space. Danault was obviously not replaceable by Evans, and he hasn't been replaced on defense, or even on offense, impact not numbers, though even his numbers haven't been replaced.. The team is also down a star goalie and two top D. Caufield needs to go and play big minutes in the AHL, score, win games, and get his confidence back.

Caufield needs to go to the AHL not because he has failed but because the GM built the team to fail.

What's crazy is that people thought the team would be good this year. I certainly didn't think they would be this bad. I don't think many people expected that Price and Edmundson would be out this long, either.

 

[HabsWhiteKnightLOL]

The loss of Price & Weber have been enormous… absolutely crippling

same two that made habs miss playoffs for several years. I would say no.
Also making the playoff in the canadian division by losing in overtime in the last game of the year was simply a sign.
This year 6 of the 7 canadian teams are sucking. Shows you how much the canadian division was awful.

 

[Runner77]

Montembault has had one really good game, and people are thinking that he's our next star player.

Let's be realistic here: the guy's record is a dismal 2 wins in 16 games played this season. I don't care if the Montreal Canadiens as a whole have been playing like garbage, Sam Montembault isn't good overall.

I would be shocked if we end up drafting outside the top 5...

Goalie wins are a team stat obviously and a nostalgic remnant from a faraway era. I don’t understand how we’re still compiling that as as a stat, it’s completely meaningless.

 

[montreal]

just use the other thread, no need for 2