Speculation: Ken Holland less than confident

Zetterberg4Captain

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Aug 11, 2009
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LA had a nice run in the Playoffs but was the 8 seed and for quite a while it was looking like they had a good chance of missing entirely

Chicago was 2 points from missing the Playoffs the year before last year and have some huge question marks of their own

St. Louis went on a nice run but only made the Playoffs a grand total of twice between the two lockouts(with the other time being back the year the Wings lost in the cup finals) and even last year struggled quite a bit before they got Hitchcock

Nashville just lost Suter

nah you're right they're all total locks in perpetuity :laugh:

did they make it?

thats all that matters

their young talent is unquestionable and as those young players get more experienced and BETTER they will as a team get even better

what st louis did in 2008 is as important as what montreal did in 1973, that is to say, 0%.

all that matters is going forward, tomorrow, next month, next year, case closed. young top end talent and plenty of it will always rule the day
 

Run the Jewels

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Jun 22, 2006
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Just to add some perspective to the thread, here's some stuff from Holland regarding parity:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/spor...supreme-in-the-nhl/article7449949/?cmpid=rss1

Basically the new stated goal is to make the playoffs. However you need high end talent to have a shot at winning the Cup. And the Wings are in a spot where they haven't found guys to replace Lidstrom, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Franzen, Chelios, Rafalski -- all key players on the last Cup winning team with about half of them being future HHoF inductees. Go back to the 97, 98 and 02 teams and the HHoF talent on those rosters was even deeper.

Right now Howard shows some capability of being a very good netminder. Val Filppula could be a Franzen level guy - key contributor although not an elite hockey player. What else is there? They need to have guys develop into elite hockey players and it's just tough to see that happen while they are being relegated to Grand Rapids. We know from history it ain't happening via trade, and free agency rarely pans out the way you plan. Otherwise we would have restocked with Suter and Parise.

The only path you truly control is player development so it's puzzling why the organization isn't giving their best prospects a chance to develop as quickly as possible. No one associated with the league would suggest Smith, Nyquist and Tatar are not ready for NHL action. No, instead we're going the safe route with Sammy, Cleary and Bert in an attempt to sneak into the playoffs. 'Cause you know anything can happen once you punch your ticket to the playoffs!! :sarcasm:
 

JmanWingsFan

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did they make it?

thats all that matters

their young talent is unquestionable and as those young players get more experienced and BETTER they will as a team get even better

what st louis did in 2008 is as important as what montreal did in 1973, that is to say, 0%.

all that matters is going forward, tomorrow, next month, next year, case closed. young top end talent and plenty of it will always rule the day

So basically you're confirming that all it takes is to make the playoffs and we have as good a shot at winning. Cool.

On the St. Louis Blues: A team that scored a paltry 210 goals got slightly deeper. Cool. They also have a thinner Dcorps and it is yet to be seen if Brian Elliot gives us an encore performance.
 

Henkka

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It upsets fans because like Bob said (paraphrasing), why the hell is he putting his prospects in the cellar if he doesnt think this team is good enough? He is putting together a team he knows cant contend. You have nothing to lose if your current team isnt good enough by playing prospects.

I would not be surprised if Holland is simply just trying to preserve the playoff streak so he can add to his legacy.

First of all, we are burning those contract years to control the salary cap.

And last time I checked, players like Nyquist and Tatar will also develop playing 20 minutes a night in AHL. Not using them in NHL does not take any development away, this is ridiculous suggestion.

They develop maybe even more than at 12 minute NHL role. Tatar is 1st year 1st liner there at this season. It will be valuable experience to handle a full season in 20-minute role, how to train, how to recover from that load. You can't do that at minor NHL role. When they learn those things in the minors on the day they have to jump in 20 minute NHL-role, they already have experience in it.

Their time will come.

People are just going like nuts how everything should be done exact opposite that we are doing. The grass is always greener in the neighbour.
 

WingedWheel1987

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First of all, we are burning those contract years to control the salary cap.

And last time I checked, players like Nyquist and Tatar will also develop playing 20 minutes a night in AHL. Not using them in NHL does not take any development away, this is ridiculous suggestion.

They develop maybe even more than at 12 minute NHL role. Tatar is 1st year 1st liner there at this season. It will be valuable experience to handle a full season in 20-minute role, how to train, how to recover from that load. You can't do that at minor NHL role. When they learn those things in the minors on the day they have to jump in 20 minute NHL-role, they already have experience in it.

Their time will come.

People are just going like nuts how everything should be done exact opposite that we are doing. The grass is always greener in the neighbour.

Yeah, Ken Holland is keeping them locked up to save money so when they turn into super stars, they will be locked into cheap contracts because their ELC's are burned up.

I do admire your creativity on why Ken Holland is not playing the prospects.

Tatar is 22
Nyquist is 23

Smith is 23 almost 24.

Absolutely insane that they are still going to rot in the AHL (minus Smith) even after failing to acquire anyone of substance. Nyquist could have played a ton of minutes in the NHL if Holland didnt sign garbage like Sammy.

Tatar will probably never play in the NHL with the Detroit Red Wings on a full time basis. There are another wave of prospects coming too. Sink or swim time. You give Tatar a shot instead of bums like Bert, Cleary, and ESPECIALLY Sammy.
 

RedMenace

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Maybe he foresaw the lockout and decided to lock up a lot of depth, considering the injuries that are mounting league wide. Also the fact these guys are veterans makes it easier to transition to post-Lidstrom era with a more calm and collected group instead of throwing youngsters into the fire and tell them "K guys, Lidstrom's gone have at it."

Next, you keep Tatar and Nyquist in Grand Rapids and keep them at their current playing time and don't throw them completely out of routine with a week of training camp and then an all out blitz to the finish line. Next year, the UFA departures allow us to throw Tatar and Nyquist into major roles. I say that's decent asset management, if you ask me.

First of all, we are burning those contract years to control the salary cap.

And last time I checked, players like Nyquist and Tatar will also develop playing 20 minutes a night in AHL. Not using them in NHL does not take any development away, this is ridiculous suggestion.

They develop maybe even more than at 12 minute NHL role. Tatar is 1st year 1st liner there at this season. It will be valuable experience to handle a full season in 20-minute role, how to train, how to recover from that load. You can't do that at minor NHL role. When they learn those things in the minors on the day they have to jump in 20 minute NHL-role, they already have experience in it.

Their time will come.

People are just going like nuts how everything should be done exact opposite that we are doing. The grass is always greener in the neighbour.

What?! Don't you guys know where you are?? This board is the greatest collection of GMs and owners ever assembled, so you can take your "logic" garbage somewhere else. ;)
 

Zetterberg4Captain

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So basically you're confirming that all it takes is to make the playoffs and we have as good a shot at winning. Cool.

On the St. Louis Blues: A team that scored a paltry 210 goals got slightly deeper. Cool. They also have a thinner Dcorps and it is yet to be seen if Brian Elliot gives us an encore performance.

i can 100% say for certainty that I made no statemnets about what detroit could or would do if they made the playoffs

the question was asked why would holland seem to be managing expectations and talk about parity and i simply discussed why that was

and the answer is, whether wings fans want to admit it or not, is because he is right.

holland looks around the western conference and sees at least 4 of last years playoff teams having brighter futures(at this very moment/time he made that interview), another being the only team in the West that is actually in its prime and two non-playoff teams are are just about to explode and be among the conferences elite

add to that the engima that is phoneix and an improving colorado and yah, detroit will not simply walk over everybody and make the playoffs the third week of the season like we have been use to
 
Jul 30, 2005
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I mean, what is location, really
And last time I checked, players like Nyquist and Tatar will also develop playing 20 minutes a night in AHL. Not using them in NHL does not take any development away, this is ridiculous suggestion.

They develop maybe even more than at 12 minute NHL role. Tatar is 1st year 1st liner there at this season. It will be valuable experience to handle a full season in 20-minute role, how to train, how to recover from that load. You can't do that at minor NHL role. When they learn those things in the minors on the day they have to jump in 20 minute NHL-role, they already have experience in it.
It's not the same. The speed of play and quality of players is incredible amounts higher in the NHL.

How are Nyquist and Tatar supposed to learn how to be effective NHL scorers when the guys they're beating are not even good enough to be 7th defensemen? The competition level is much lower and can lead to bad habits.

I think about the only position the AHL is effective for is goaltender. Because the defenses aren't as good, you see more shots and there are still lots of guys with rocket shots or good hands.
 

JmanWingsFan

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It's not the same. The speed of play and quality of players is incredible amounts higher in the NHL.

How are Nyquist and Tatar supposed to learn how to be effective NHL scorers when the guys they're beating are not even good enough to be 7th defensemen? The competition level is much lower and can lead to bad habits.

I think about the only position the AHL is effective for is goaltender. Because the defenses aren't as good, you see more shots and there are still lots of guys with rocket shots or good hands.
OH MY GOODNESS, THEY'RE GONNA SPEND THE REST OF THE SEASON IN THE AHL. SHOOT ME NOW. Like it's gonna make all the difference.
 

FlashyG

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Dec 15, 2011
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Parity is an excuse by Holland to promote his do nothing approach. Everybody else being mediocre doesnt mean it's OK for your team to be mediocre too. Of course this attitude is completely wrong, and will result in another 1st round exit or no playoffs at all.

If Dean Lombardi used the Ken Holland GM playbook, the Kings would have not won the cup.

Unfortunately the Kings winning the cup allows GM's like Holland to preach to the uninformed fans that the Wings are legit contenders. Once you actually analyze the Kings situation for two seconds, you realize that the Kings winning the cup was a four year build up that culminated in one final trade that gave the Kings a complete team and not a matter of just getting in and getting hot.

Insanity is doing the same thing over again and expecting a different result.

The Kings Cup was the result of years of futility being rewarded by very early draft picks. There were some trades that worked out very well for them, but ultimately you have a core of guys who were all drafted before any player on the Wings entire roster. That's not to take away from the job Lombardi's done, but he's far from the level of a Hall of Fame GM like Holland who has attained more success with less to work with.

The Kings are not any more of a lock for a playoff spot past this year than Detroit or anyone else. They have over 47 million locked into next season already and have half a roster to fill, including some key roster spots.

As far as your definition of Insanity goes, if Holland's system has provided a playoff team in every season he's been in charge...wouldn't you expecting otherwise be considered insane?
 

WingedWheel1987

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The Kings Cup was the result of years of futility being rewarded by very early draft picks. There were some trades that worked out very well for them, but ultimately you have a core of guys who were all drafted before any player on the Wings entire roster. That's not to take away from the job Lombardi's done, but he's far from the level of a Hall of Fame GM like Holland who has attained more success with less to work with.

The Kings are not any more of a lock for a playoff spot past this year than Detroit or anyone else. They have over 47 million locked into next season already and have half a roster to fill, including some key roster spots.

As far as your definition of Insanity goes, if Holland's system has provided a playoff team in every season he's been in charge...wouldn't you expecting otherwise be considered insane?

The Kings were a totally different team after they traded for Carter. I am expecting them to make the playoffs before the final week of the season this time. I dont disagree, Lombardai built that team via futility, but i do disagree with the notion that the Kings making the playoff and winning the cup was completely unexpected and a result of parity,(1-8 seed being so close in terms of talent)

I dont expect making the playoffs, I expect real shot at contending for a cup. The Detroit Red Wings are not the Los Angeles Kings. There wont be a miracle unless Brunner is a superstar, Howard turns into Patrick Roy and Z has a second Renascence because he is named the captain.

Wings are not realistically contending for a cup with their current roster. It might be good enough to make the playoffs, but even if they got in, i would not expect them to advance past the first round. Holland thinks otherwise, or he is just lying to himself or the media. Any Given Sunday is a lie in the NHL. This is not the NFL, and Ken Holland is trying to get people to forget about his failures the past four years when he keeps bringing up parity.

What i meant by insanity, was expecting this team to win a cup by doing minor changes. He has been doing it since 2009, and the results have been the same every time. Still hasnt added a real top six winger. Fingers crossed Brunner does well, but no way am i giving the benefit of the doubt to a guy who has never played in the NHL. It's been four years and the Wings lost Hossa, Stuart, Lidstrom, Rafi and replaced them with far less talented players, meanwhile the stars of the team have gotten older and become less productive.

Defense is worse than last year. Defense by committee is just another Ken Holland PR phrase to make the defense sound better than it is.

I am not worried about the Kings cap situation nor do i care. If the original goal of having a 60 million cap had come to pass, than i would have agreed that they are in trouble.

Wings are in major trouble cap wise since all of those stud prospects are going to need massive raises when they turn into superstars.

Parity to Ken Holland is doing nothing while you watch your team get worse and feel like that's OK.

Says we dont have cap space and thats why the Wings havent improved.
Get cap space and dont use it because players cost too much money.

What exactly is Holland waiting for? If he wont pay for star players, why not play the prospects and see if you have anybody who could be a star? Nope, lets sign Sammy and stick Nyquist in the AHL for another decade.
 
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HTT3*

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yeah I understand the whole parity thing, but at this point its starting to seem like a cop out/excuse to me. Especially with the fact that we keep bringing back vets and are so scared to give some of the young guys a real shot it can get a bit frustrating with times.

I was hoping both Smith and Nyquist were full timers this year, but I feel like Nyquist isn't going to be a full timer this year anymore. Hopefully one of the oldies just flat out sucks this season that they basically play themselves off the lineup early so Gus can be here full time.

I think Nyquist will get a shot if Brunner turns out to be a flop. Sucks for Nyquist, but you can't blame Holland for signing Brunner.
 

Frk It

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It's pretty obvious. The more you say "parity" the less accountability you take. :sarcasm:
 

Frk It

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I think Nyquist will get a shot if Brunner turns out to be a flop. Sucks for Nyquist, but you can't blame Holland for signing Brunner.

Nope, but I'll blame him for signing 36 year old Samuelsson to take his spot. Or giving Bertuzzi more years than he deserves.
 

TS Quint

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Maybe he foresaw the lockout and decided to lock up a lot of depth, considering the injuries that are mounting league wide. Also the fact these guys are veterans makes it easier to transition to post-Lidstrom era with a more calm and collected group instead of throwing youngsters into the fire and tell them "K guys, Lidstrom's gone have at it."

Next, you keep Tatar and Nyquist in Grand Rapids and keep them at their current playing time and don't throw them completely out of routine with a week of training camp and then an all out blitz to the finish line. Next year, the UFA departures allow us to throw Tatar and Nyquist into major roles. I say that's decent asset management, if you ask me.

Stop being so reasonable!
 

12345*

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I dunno why people are jumping over Holland. They havent had the opportunity to draft high end talent in a long time due to their perpetual success.
 

Iowa Wingsfan

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Ever since Hossa fell into his lap Holland has been trending down. I am not going to name all the contracts he has given out that have made me scratch my head, instead I will ask what has been his best signing in the last 4 years? Maybe White or Kronwall? How about the trade market. Since the Stuart trade, which was great, what has he done? Quincey? For the reputation that he carries I expect a hell of a lot more.
 

WingedWheel1987

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Ever since Hossa fell into his lap Holland has been trending down. I am not going to name all the contracts he has given out that have made me scratch my head, instead I will ask what has been his best signing in the last 4 years? Maybe White or Kronwall? How about the trade market. Since the Stuart trade, which was great, what has he done? Quincey? For the reputation that he carries I expect a hell of a lot more.

I liked the Helm signing.
 

HTT3*

Guest
Nope, but I'll blame him for signing 36 year old Samuelsson to take his spot. Or giving Bertuzzi more years than he deserves.

With the loss of Hudler and Lidstrom, having Samuelsson on the point during our horrendous power play may not be a bad thing. Wings have few shooters and just lost two that actually did shoot. Nyquist isn't a shooter.

I would like to see DRWs record without the OT wins. Bertuzzi is the shoot out specialist. Without winning some OT games, Wings may not even make the playoffs.

Don't you want the DRWs to make the playoffs?

EDIT:

Two more reasons why I think Holland keeps the kids down.

1. No risk of losing them to the waiver wire, so they can be brought up and sent down as needed without risk.
2. When time to re-sign them, they won't have a big record to point to and say "show me the money!".

Depth helps win games...
 
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Frk It

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With the loss of Hudler and Lidstrom, having Samuelsson on the point during our horrendous power play may not be a bad thing. Wings have few shooters and just lost two that actually did shoot. Nyquist isn't a shooter.

I would like to see DRWs record without the OT wins. Bertuzzi is the shoot out specialist. Without winning some OT games, Wings may not even make the playoffs.

Don't you want the DRWs to make the playoffs?

Hahahahahaha. I forgot that was completely riding on Bert and Sammy's shoulders. :laugh:
 

Brick Top

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Why didnt Holland play Smith last year with Lidstrom being around so he could have a full season under his belt while being mentored by Lidstrom? Instead, he is now being thrown into the fire............:help:

I dont buy that explanation one bit.

Yeah, I thought all of last year that Smith should have been up based on his talent, but also for the opportunity to learn from Lidstrom- I mean, the kid gets criticized on this board for his defensive play, so it may not have been a bad thing for him to play with and learn from a guy who excelled in defensive positioning and play in his own zone. Safe to say there is a distinct lack of Norris-level talent on the roster this year to mentor him.
 

Brick Top

LANA!!!!!
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First of all, we are burning those contract years to control the salary cap.

And last time I checked, players like Nyquist and Tatar will also develop playing 20 minutes a night in AHL. Not using them in NHL does not take any development away, this is ridiculous suggestion

Posted this in the Tatar thread, but I don't necessarily agree that Holland is successfully controlling the cap by burying prospects. Other teams have used productive players on ELC's in the NHL, meaning that they get useful assets at low cap hits, allowing for more $$ to be used on re-signing vets or bringing in UFA's. Sure, it's possible for a young player to grossly outplay his ELC amount and nail down a huge 2nd contract, but that's not a lock to happen. My example is the 2 yr/2.55 per deal that MDZ signed with the Rangers after having 2 really good years out of 3 on his first deal. Pretty good cap hit for a guy who has already helped the club and cemented himself in the best top 4 D group in the league.

Had Holland landed a guy like Parise, I'd have no problem with the team telling Tatar or Nyquist (likely Tatar) that this just isn't his year with to be a Wing. But to have guys like Sammy and Bert blocking the young guys' path to a top 9 role this season has to be frustrating for them. Plus, the old guys count over $5mil towards the cap (this year AND next, of course) versus having Gus and Tatar up this year instead at a combined hit of just over $1.7mil, allowing Kenny to have $$ to be more aggressive with FA's.
 

Shoalzie

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He's going to have rebuild the defense but he's got plenty of offensive talent, solid goaltending and the team skates pretty well...you can't help but drop down some notches when you lose a Nick Lidstrom. No way are there 8 teams better than them in the West but they'll get bounced if they get a bad matchup.

I'm thinking 3rd place in the Central (behind St. Louis and Chicago)...6th seed in the West.
 

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