Karalahti

[me2]

If the NHL refuses to readmit him to the Stanley Cup NHL competition because of his failure to complete his treatment then that is something Karalahti has to live with because he made that choice.

If Karalahti can get into country with his record then he should be able to play. Really, he comes, he plays, he goes home and everyone gets on with their lives. Its not as if he's a threat to stab other players or sell them drugs. This seems to reek of stubborn, self-righteous, vindictive bullyboy tactics.

I'm with the Finns 100% on this one given the circumstances.

 

[me2]

Show us some documentation that the NHL and NHLPA encourages its players to get access to performance-enhancing supplements.

What does it do to discourge it? Objecting to drugs testing might not be "encouraging" it in a positive sense, but agressively objecting to testing is in fact encouraging it in a passive sense. Its effectively saying "Need to get ahead? Can't do it legally? Don't worry we'll make sure that they don't test you.".

...And if some NHL players are using performance enhancing supplements, show us where in the NHL rulebook or CBA that says its players cannot use performance enhancing supplements.

The NHL policy that Karalahti did not follow was designed for alcohol and recreational drug abuse, not performance enhancing supplements.

There is a huge difference between a muscle stimulant and heroin.

One is gaining an unfair advantage the other is screwing up the man taking it. I know which the NHL proper should be more concerned with, let the clubs/player/police deal with the other.

Its about time the NHL/NHLPA implemented full anti-doping procedures. Each player should be subjected to 1-4 random drugs tests a year, including the off season.


The attitude seems to be one of burying the head in the sand at the mention of drug testing

“We are fortunate not to have a problem with steroid use in our sport,†says Ted Saskin, senior director of the NHL Players Association.

Really? Then why not test every player in the NHL now. Since there is no drugs problem at all, no one would be caught, and the players could hold their heads high and free of any questioning their fairness. Surely this has to be a positive for the NHL/NHLPA. So why the resistance?

Time for the NHL to catch up to the rest of the world.

 

[Jumptheshark]

When he failed the last test--he was under contract to I believe LA and he fled the country and ** to the the NHL and the NHLPA--Becasue he was under contract to an NHL club--even though suspended--he tech has a contract--although now expired.
He also go into trouble on a europena tema a few years ago

 

[gib]

Show us some documentation that the NHL and NHLPA encourages its playpain pillers to get access to performance-enhancing supplements.

me2, already did answer to these and I agree with his answers. Here is what I want ot add more.

It`s well known fact that there are plenty of supplements available in NHL the arenas medicine cabinets. Stimulates and pain pills. I believe there is not anabolics or stuff like that available cause that would be pretty stupid. Cause those stimulates and pain pills are so easy to get some players do use them. If you start to think about what does it do to a human when using that stuff. First you use stimulates to get extra power to your play, then after match/before match you need to take pain pills to be able to play because of minor injuries. Also after match when using stimulates you won`t be able to sleep, cause those stimulates keep you awake. So you take sleeping-pills and vicious circle is ready. Unnoticed player can become a mixed users of pain pills, stimulates and sleeping-pills.

...And if some NHL players are using performance enhancing supplements, show us where in the NHL rulebook or CBA that says its players cannot use performance enhancing supplements.

That was exactly my point, my friend. I think you didn`t get what I did mean. What I meant was it is douple faced judging player from beer drinking, but at the same time allow players to use performance enhancing supplements! I did compare those two things. NHL judge one problem, but don`t want to see or do something to some other problems, like doping.

The NHL policy that Karalahti did not follow was designed for alcohol and recreational drug abuse, not performance enhancing supplements.

There is a huge difference between a muscle stimulant and heroin.

Like I said earlier I didn`t write that Karalahti`s case has something to do with doping. Only that it`s my point of wiew douple faced judge from one thing and allow some others.

Using anabolics, stimulates etc. can be very disastrous to people. Have you ever heard what anabolics can do to human? Man can become addicted about stimulates, just like form drugs amphetamine etc. Those are also somekind of stimulates.

You are right, there is difference between doping substance and drugs, but it`s not that huge difference. To make sure I am against any drugs and performance enhancing supplements.

When talking about Karalahti, you should remember that last time he did use drugs was before he left to NHL, was it 1998(?) or something like that and now is`t 2004! He was tested about drugs in NHL at least one time a week and he never gived a positive result. He has come over his drug problem, but he still wants to drink beer and have fun.

It is not the same in the sense that these are not NHL clubs competing for the Stanley Cup.

It is the same in the sense that the NHL is the governing body for the tournament. Their rules are in effect. The IIHF has nothing to do with the World Cup. It is all NHL.

Bottom line, Karalahti broke NHL rules, did not fulfill his subtance abuse obligations in the NHL policy, thus the NHL will not let him play in an NHL sanctioned tournament.

I don't see what is so unfair about that.

You are right about that IIHF has nothing do with World Cup, I also do know that. What I meant that Karalahti will not play a single game in NHL even if he would play in World Cup. He is panned to play in NHL, not in World Cup(in my point of wiew). In world cup there are nations who compete, not hockey clubs.

Unfairn is that it`s ridiculous juding man about drinking a beer.

 

[BCCHL inactive]

"Bitter Attornoy?" So, you`re defending the NHL stand-point that Karalahti broke their rules and therefore aren`t allowed to play World Cup. Rules broken---> consequences. But in Heatley`s case your moral code bends other way. Rules (law) broken ---> no consequences. How can you justify such a double standard?

As you can see I understand NHL point-of-view in Karalahti`s case completely. Heatley`s case they have no saying because it`s matter of law and courts are to decide what was the price of Dan Snyder`s life. But same logic applies here. I imagine that in US there are clear written laws regarding high speed, traffic endangerment and vehicular homicide. Heatley knew that what he did was dangerous and someone could get killed while he was having fun (maybe him, maybe Snyder, maybe some innocent bystander). He did it anyway and now he has the pay the price. I don't see what is so unfair about that. I don`t see how the juridical process is all due to "bitter attourney". I imagine that in US all people are equal under the law- or that`s the impression that I have got watching Matlock etc. Or is the policy that this kind of crimes are left unpunished or is this the case only with sport superstars?

There is no double standard.

Karalahti violated NHL regulations by not fulfilling his substance abuse program obligations.

Heatley violated no NHL regulations.

It is that simple.

One is gaining an unfair advantage the other is screwing up the man taking it.

It's not an unfair advantage if there are no rules against it. Right now, it is a matter of choice.

He has come over his drug problem, but he still wants to drink beer and have fun.

Unfairn is that it`s ridiculous juding man about drinking a beer.

His problem was not just drugs, it was alcohol as well. Once you are in the substance abuse program, you have rules to follow. Karalahti chose to turn his nose at the NHL's program designed to get him off drugs AND alcohol.

The NHL did not judge Karalahti for drinking A beer. The NHL tried to help him overcome alcoholism. In other terms, Karalahti is a drunk and he refused to abide by the NHL's policy.

 

[Padawan]

The NHL did not judge Karalahti for drinking A beer. The NHL tried to help him overcome alcoholism. In other terms, Karalahti is a drunk and he refused to abide by the NHL's policy.

Actually, Karalahti said later on that they wouldn't allow him to drink even one beer, so in a way, you're wrong. Although, Karalahti knew that if would leave the NHL he wouldn't be allowed to come back to NHL. Now, World Cup is not NHL but it's rules are in effect in the tournament. IMO, not letting Karalahti play in Finnish National team at the tournament is ridicilous and in the same time other persons who have committed more wrong things can play, after all they are NHL superstars and are North Americans.

Oh, one thing... There is double standard in NHL.

 

[BCCHL inactive]

Actually, Karalahti said later on that they wouldn't allow him to drink even one beer, so in a way, you're wrong.

I knew this when I posted.

When you are in a substance abuse program, you are not allowed to divulge into your urges at all. The NHL did not judge Karalahti for drinking ONE beer. The NHL put him into the program because he was an alcoholic, not because he had a beer with dinner. Not allowing him to drink is just part of the program. The program would be quite hypocritical if it were to allow him to drink a beer when the whole point is to get him to quit drinking period.

Although, Karalahti knew that if would leave the NHL he wouldn't be allowed to come back to NHL. Now, World Cup is not NHL but it's rules are in effect in the tournament.

You said it yourself. NHL rules are in place.

Karalahti did not fulfill his commitment to the NHL's substance abuse program. Why should the NHL let him play in a tournament they sanction?

That's like saying an employee who got fired in January should be invited to the company Christmas party the following December.

IMO, not letting Karalahti play in Finnish National team at the tournament is ridicilous and in the same time other persons who have committed more wrong things can play, after all they are NHL superstars and are North Americans.

Don't play the Europe vs. North America card. It doesn't fly.

Tell me, what other player on a World Cup roster has un-fulfilled commitments to NHL policy?

There is no double standard.

 

[SergeiK]

There is no double standard.

Karalahti violated NHL regulations by not fulfilling his substance abuse program obligations.

Heatley violated no NHL regulations.

It is that simple.

I must be that my english isn`t that good if you got the impression that I was talking about Heatleys right to play World Cup/NHL. You wrote that Heatley made a bad decision and should not be on trial at all. You called district attorney "bitter" when he is clearly following the law.

But in the other hand you judge Karalahti`s actions and think that the fact that he`s punished according NHL rules is totally ok. Where your talk about "fatal mistakes" and "forgivness" in Karalahti`s case? Isn`t the NHL "bitter" because it doesn`t let Karalahti play?

These two cases are not related at all. Heatley`s got issues with law and Karalahti with NHL`s subtance abuse program. Only connection is your attitude and your surprisingly flexible moral standards with the two separate, but still morally similar cases.

EDIT: To make my opinions clear. There are no double standards in NHL if we`re talking about Karalahti`s and Heatley`s actions. Heatley can kill or possess kiddie porn. Those kind of actions aren`t against NHL rules. If the "bitter district attourney" fails and Heatley walks out of that courtroom as free man, it`s not NHL`s place to take any moral position. If Heatley is a free man, he plays. I`m not blaming NHL if Heatley plays in World Cup.

 

[Korkki]

Van, Karalahti is not an alcoholic. A holic is a person who frequently leaves his jobs undone because he is drunk. Simply a person who can't do work because he drinks too much. If you miss couple of days a year because you are in a too bad condition it does not make you a holic. When it becomes regular then you are.

And alcoholism is considered as illness if Finland, and I think that also in America.

I am like others in Finland, I can't understand why killers can play... In Finland Heatley would have been in jail atleast for few months. Karalahti's fault is that he is not from America.

IMO this tournament can't be called as "the best players on ice" if NHL(PA) is choosing the players who can play...

 

[gib]

It's not an unfair advantage if there are no rules against it (doping: edit by gib) Right now, it is a matter of choice.

So you are saying that using doping is good for a man? You support doping, because it`s not forbidden by NHL? Players should use doping cause there is no rules against it? This is what I am talking about. Deny this, allow that.

The NHL put him into the program because he was an alcoholic, not because he had a beer with dinner...

Is Jere alcoholic? If you ask me he is not. He can use a lot alcohol at one time, but he doesn`t do it that often. He will never become a guy who lives under a bridge. He can take care of himself, he is a grown man for god sake.

I must wonder how his life is so balanced now, even if he didn`t go to rehab that NHL wanted. When people talk about that rehab program, it sounds like that is the only option for a man to get his life balanced, but that is not the case at all. Why they try to make people straight to abstrainers? If Jere would have allowed to drink his beer with dinner, the hole case could have been differently. But he wasn`t allowed to drink single beer.

Karalahti did not fulfill his commitment to the NHL's substance abuse program. Why should the NHL let him play in a tournament they sanction?

That's like saying an employee who got fired in January should be invited to the company Christmas party the following December.

So what do think about the situation that team Germany has players who haven`t been drafted by any NHL team(?). They have nothing to do with NHLPA or NHL, why should they play in Wórld Cup? Would it be better that only players who play in NHL at the moment are allowed to play?

 

[steepler]

Is Jere alcoholic? If you ask me he is not. He can use a lot alcohol at one time, but he doesn`t do it that often. He will never become a guy who lives under a bridge. He can take care of himself, he is a grown man for god sake.

The NHL substance abuse problem is not really there to judge how someone can live without it or if they are an alcoholic. It is a service to the players, and i think it's pretty good. If yuo have a substance abuse problem the first time yuo don't even lose pay and you get free treatment. Of course there has to be a progreassion in the program, it would be stupid not to have strict standards in the program, it wouldn't make any sence if yuo could just keep drinking and go to treatment with pay and after yuo get out play for a while drink again and go right back in with pay. There has to be zero tolerance for this kind of program to make any sence. If you ask me it's pretty good system for the players, they get help for free and initially without loosing any pay.

Jere entered the program because of drugs and maybe he isn't alcoholic, but it'd be pretty tricky having all sorts of different standards for different substances. Obviously alcohol is pretty important to him, more important than his job or even keeping contractual obligations which he broke continously by drinking. In other words he'd rather have a drink than keep his word, I don't know if he is alcoholic but seems like it is pretty high on his priorities, judging from his actions I'd say nr.1.

A lot of Finnish people think that there are some sort of double stadard in place in the substance abuse program, for the nhl to protect North American players versus Europeans. There have even been some articles in the mainstream media promoting this kind of thinking, of course none of them have provided any proof that Jere was treated differently because he is from Finland. There hasn't even really been a presedence set in this kind of a case. Theo Fleury would be a similar case, altough he probably has more extensive issues but he has been in the same program. I don't think that he'd be eligible to play even if Canada wanted him, which they obviously don't.

So what do think about the situation that team Germany has players who haven`t been drafted by any NHL team(?). They have nothing to do with NHLPA or NHL, why should they play in Wórld Cup? Would it be better that only players who play in NHL at the moment are allowed to play?

It's not a question of whether yuo've played in the nhl or not, it's a question of nhl eligibility. If yuo are not eligible to play in nhl you can't play in an nhl sanctioned event like the World Cup. Those German players have not done anything not to be eligible in the nhl, they could play there in the future without meeting any conditions other than signing with a team.

 

[BCCHL inactive]

I am like others in Finland, I can't understand why killers can play... In Finland Heatley would have been in jail atleast for few months. Karalahti's fault is that he is not from America.

:lol

So you are saying that using doping is good for a man? You support doping, because it`s not forbidden by NHL? Players should use doping cause there is no rules against it? This is what I am talking about. Deny this, allow that.

Did I say that I support doping?

Your argument is that there is a double standard because Karalahti got put in a substance abuse program for recreational drugs while others are allowed performance enhancing drugs. That argument makes no sense.

There is a huge difference between taking drugs to get yourself high and drugs to boost your performance.

I'm not saying performance enhancing drugs are good, but there are no NHL regulations against them. You cannot use that as a basis for accusing a double standard.

 

[Canuck21t]

Van, Karalahti is not an alcoholic. A holic is a person who frequently leaves his jobs undone because he is drunk. Simply a person who can't do work because he drinks too much. If you miss couple of days a year because you are in a too bad condition it does not make you a holic. When it becomes regular then you are.

And alcoholism is considered as illness if Finland, and I think that also in America.

I am like others in Finland, I can't understand why killers can play... In Finland Heatley would have been in jail atleast for few months. Karalahti's fault is that he is not from America.

IMO this tournament can't be called as "the best players on ice" if NHL(PA) is choosing the players who can play...

Oh please, stop this Europe vs. America thing again! I am so tired of it. It's almost like Europeans can't analyse at all. Don't you guys get it? Heatley may be a criminal but not under the NHL nor the NHLPA regulations. All the NHL cares about is its own rules. If Heatley was sanctioned to attend an AA meeting by the NHL and he didn't go, he too wouldn't be allowed to play at the World Cup. Ridiculous yes, but unjust? Not really and definitly not because the subject is a non-North American. But honestly, is Karalahti that good? I personally have never heard of him until this controversy. Is Finland going to be that much handicapped without him?

 

[me2]

It's not an unfair advantage if there are no rules against it. Right now, it is a matter of choice.

So what is wrong with getting drunk. If the club is unhappy they can tear up the contract. The NHL/NHLPA should just butt out, its a club-player thing.

It seems to me you support a player taking steriods, getting roid-rage and getting violent because its "legal" under NHL rules. Yet drinking beer is bad? Drinking too much is bad for you? So is taking too many roids. Smacks of NHL hypocrisy.

 

[me2]

You said it yourself. NHL rules are in place.

There is no double standard.

Why is Hatcher allowed to play while suspended from the NHL then? After all if they are under NHL rules Hatcher shouldn't be able to play UNLESS they class this tournament as not being the NHL. In which case other players suspended from the NHL should be able to play.

 

[BCCHL inactive]

So what is wrong with getting drunk. If the club is unhappy they can tear up the contract. The NHL/NHLPA should just butt out, its a club-player thing.

Alcoholism is a disease. It is up to the employer of any alcoholic to get that person into rehab. Not to mention the drug addiction that was the main reason Karalahti was put into the NHL's substance abuse policy.

It seems to me you support a player taking steriods, getting roid-rage and getting violent because its "legal" under NHL rules. Yet drinking beer is bad? Drinking too much is bad for you? So is taking too many roids. Smacks of NHL hypocrisy.

1. Don't put words into my mouth.

2. There are no current rules against performance enhancing supplements in the NHL. Discussing whether or not such supplements are right is a completely different topic and has nothing to do with Karalahti not being allowed to play at the World Cup.

3. I would be more worried about somebody addicted to heroin than somebody taking steroids. I'm not saying taking steroids is right, but it is used for a much different purpose than recreational drugs. You don't get physically addicted to performance enhancing supplements. You do get addicted to most recreational drugs.

Why is Hatcher allowed to play while suspended from the NHL then? After all if they are under NHL rules Hatcher shouldn't be able to play UNLESS they class this tournament as not being the NHL. In which case other players suspended from the NHL should be able to play.

Here is the difference:

Karalahti was placed in the NHL's substance abuse program. To be eligible for NHL sanctioned games, he had to complete the program. He did not, thus is not eligible for the World Cup.

Hatcher was suspended for three NHL club games for his actions in Game 6 of the 2004 Western Conference Semi-Final.

Hatcher was given a punishment for on-ice actions, thus the NHL decided to keep his punishment in the game which he committed the offence.

Karalahti's problem has nothing to do with playing the game. It has to do with Karalahti not completing rehabilitation requirements to re-gain his eligibility. It's not something you can appeal like a suspension for on-ice actions.

 

[me2]

Alcoholism is a disease. It is up to the employer of any alcoholic to get that person into rehab. Not to mention the drug addiction that was the main reason Karalahti was put into the NHL's substance abuse policy.

Nicotne (smoking) is an addictive drugs, and it probably kills many more people than alchohol. Are players suspended by the NHL if they get caught smoking?

 

[gib]

Did I say that I support doping?

Your argument is that there is a double standard because Karalahti got put in a substance abuse program for recreational drugs while others are allowed performance enhancing drugs. That argument makes no sense.

There is a huge difference between taking drugs to get yourself high and drugs to boost your performance.

I'm not saying performance enhancing drugs are good, but there are no NHL regulations against them. You cannot use that as a basis for accusing a double standard.

I am not sure, but it does sound that you don`t really care if some uses doping. I am strongly against doping and I don`t appreciate athletes who do use em. I found those athletes pitiful, cause they can`t compete with they own strenght. They need factitious substance to be able doing well.

If you didn`t say that you support doping, have I said that something about a double standard? No I haven`t. I have talked about double morals or what do you call it. Morals in NHL isn`t like it should be and that`s is the ridiculous part. I don`t think there is double standard by NHL, but moral in NHL is ridiculous. I have said this so many times, but I put it still here. They allow doping, but deny guy drinking a beer?!? Where is the moral................

3. I would be more worried about somebody addicted to heroin than somebody taking steroids. I'm not saying taking steroids is right, but it is used for a much different purpose than recreational drugs. You don't get physically addicted to performance enhancing supplements. You do get addicted to most recreational drugs.

I am repeating myself in every post, but..........
You don`t get physically addicted to performance enhancing supplements? Maybe not to one substance, but when using stimulates, sleeping-pills and pain pills at the same time you become addicted. Or your body becomes addicted, it wont start normally if dont get stimulates, you can`t sleep without sleeping pills and you sure can become addicted to pain pills.
If using anabolics for a long time there is always danger that your body can`t live without that you take anabolics. I don`t remember it perfectly, but when using anabolics it somehow stops your bodys own hormone functions. If your body goes like that you need to eat anabolics for rest of your life.

Jere haven`t used drugs since at least sice 1998 (maybe it was 1997), even if he haven`t been on a rehab. So people can`t say that Jere is a addict. There might be a change that he would start using drugs at some situation, but I see change for that is annuled.

 

[gib]

The NHL substance abuse problem is not really there to judge how someone can live without it or if they are an alcoholic. It is a service to the players, and i think it's pretty good............ If you ask me it's pretty good system for the players, they get help for free and initially without loosing any pay.

That program can sure be good for some player, but not to all players. You can`t treat everybody at the same way. in Jere`s case those religion things were too much for him. In Finland people are just not passionate about religion, we are almoust pagans and majority of people in Finland don`t believe that there is a god. So maybe methods should be chosen more carefully.

I don`t know how many players there have been on a rehab program, I only know Fleury case. So could someone tell me how this rehab things has done. How many players have gotten their life balanced and get back to play hockey. For Jere and Fleury it clearly didn`t work.

A lot of Finnish people think that there are some sort of double stadard in place in the substance abuse program, for the nhl to protect North American players versus Europeans. There have even been some articles in the mainstream media promoting this kind of thinking, of course none of them have provided any proof that Jere was treated differently because he is from Finland. There hasn't even really been a presedence set in this kind of a case. Theo Fleury would be a similar case, altough he probably has more extensive issues but he has been in the same program. I don't think that he'd be eligible to play even if Canada wanted him, which they obviously don't.

I don`t think there is a douple standard, but I can say that there is douple morals. It is morally so ridiculous not to allow Jere to play.

It's not a question of whether yuo've played in the nhl or not, it's a question of nhl eligibility. If yuo are not eligible to play in nhl you can't play in an nhl sanctioned event like the World Cup. Those German players have not done anything not to be eligible in the nhl, they could play there in the future without meeting any conditions other than signing with a team.

Don`t you have to be member of NHLPA if you want to play in NHL? Okay, lets say World Cup=NHL, cause NHL does arrange it.

You are not member of NHLPA ---> not allowed to play in NHL(?). You are not member of NHLPA--> allowed to play in World Cup. hmm.....

Karalahti is member of NHLPA, but in a ban ---> not allowed to play in NHL anf also ---> not allowed to play in World Cup.

 

[SergeiK]

My two cents to this conversation is that alcohol seem to have major role in Karalahti`s life. But if his family stick by him, and he can wake up every morning and feel good about himself then it`s him business. Even if means that Jere is digging his own grave. It`s his grave and nobody else`s.

Last season there were only two incidents. Firstly in begining of the season Jere hit his fist to the wall in drunken rage and broke it. He missed some games due to that.
He missed bronze game last April because he failed to appear morning practises at the morning of the game day. If his employer, HIFK, approves then Jere can under influence every time that he isn`t practising or playing.

The issue should NHL/NHLPA supervise players substance use I don`t want to touch even with a ten foot pole. But those were the rules when Jere agreeded to obey them, but failed to do so.

 

[Maelmoor]

This is a joke...why can't they allow Jere play when quite many of the NHL players are using drugs and NHL (or NHLPA, or both) refuses to do drug tests....

 

[me2]

Don`t you have to be member of NHLPA if you want to play in NHL? Okay, lets say World Cup=NHL, cause NHL does arrange it.

You are not member of NHLPA ---> not allowed to play in NHL(?). You are not member of NHLPA--> allowed to play in World Cup. hmm.....

Karalahti is member of NHLPA, but in a ban ---> not allowed to play in NHL anf also ---> not allowed to play in World Cup.

I wonder if he is still a member or if he quit. If he quit does the NHLPA have any more say in the matter than it does over European player who haven't signed up to the NHLPA?

 

[BCCHL inactive]

This is a joke...why can't they allow Jere play when quite many of the NHL players are using drugs and NHL (or NHLPA, or both) refuses to do drug tests....

Lets see your documentation of which NHL players are using drugs.

If you cannot provide that, then your comment means nothing.


Jere Karalahti is not eligible for the World Cup because he did not fulfill the rehab requirements to earn reinstatement to the NHL.

I don't know why most of you Finns cannot understand that.

 

[Jussi]

Jere Karalahti is not eligible for the World Cup because he did not fulfill the rehab requirements to earn reinstatement to the NHL.

I don't know why most of you Finns cannot understand that.

Hey, I understand completely, don't blame me. But maybe the others are unconsciously still bitter about your "brilliant" idea of merging the Finland and Sweden boards and are arguing with you just for the hell of it?

 

[me2]

Lets see your documentation of which NHL players are using drugs.

Wouldn't that require drug testing? Something the players are completely opposed to. Wonder why that is?