Kane 2016 Or Matthews 2022?
- Thread starter DitchMarner
- Start date
Matthews 2022 is the best season ever by an American. He's not the "greatest" American player yet but he is the "best"
JaegerDice
The mark of my dignity shall scar thy DNA
- Dec 26, 2014
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Pretty clearly Matthews. Not close.
More points at 5v5 and far better underlying numbers.
Matthews in 2022 was basically peak Jonathan Toews in terms of play driving and possession, combined with Peak Patrick Kane in terms of production. He was basically the Blackhawks best two forwards through the dynasty years combined into one monster hybrid.
The only area this Frankenstein monster fell somewhat short was in play-making, but that kind of makes sense given on a line with Bunting (puck retrieval) and Marner (play-making), he'd be the shooter most of the time, not the passer.
More points at 5v5 and far better underlying numbers.
| Matthews 2022 | Kane 2016 | |
| 5v5 GF% | 60.23 | 56.21 |
| 5v5 GF.Rel | +0.82 | +0.7 |
| 5v5 SF% | 59.48 | 50.46 |
| 5v5 SF.Rrel | +6.77 | +2.77 |
| 5v5 CF% | 60.27 | 52.02 |
| 5b5 CF.Rel | +11.42 | +4.25 |
| 5v5 xGF% | 64.15 | 47.44 |
| 5v5 xGF.Rel | +0.8 | -0.06 |
| GAR | 31.8 | 19.9 |
| WAR | 5.6 | 3.8 |
Matthews in 2022 was basically peak Jonathan Toews in terms of play driving and possession, combined with Peak Patrick Kane in terms of production. He was basically the Blackhawks best two forwards through the dynasty years combined into one monster hybrid.
The only area this Frankenstein monster fell somewhat short was in play-making, but that kind of makes sense given on a line with Bunting (puck retrieval) and Marner (play-making), he'd be the shooter most of the time, not the passer.
David Suzuki
Registered User
Was gonna make a "at least Kane made it out round1" joke and remembered they got swept lol.
I think Matthews was better. Unreal goalscoring, and much better possession player whose GF% at 5v5 was still better despite poor goaltending behind him.
I do think that the uptick in scoring is likely going to cause his season to be underrated. Kane was the more dominant scorer relative to his peers though while playing the full slate of games. Relative to the rest of the top 10, it would be like him putting up 130 points this season. However I think the competition was better this year (so in actuality it might be more like 120), and I think it was also one of those years where variance makes a player’s numbers look better than their actual performance.
I do think that the uptick in scoring is likely going to cause his season to be underrated. Kane was the more dominant scorer relative to his peers though while playing the full slate of games. Relative to the rest of the top 10, it would be like him putting up 130 points this season. However I think the competition was better this year (so in actuality it might be more like 120), and I think it was also one of those years where variance makes a player’s numbers look better than their actual performance.
Kane because attention starved Leafs fans are completely insufferable.
That’s an unreal take
Dion TheFluff
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Sun God Nika
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Kane was 1st in scoring in his year. Lead the second highest scorer by 17 pts.
Matthews was 6th in scoring and trailed the first place scorer by 15 pts.
I love goals and I know why we count them for more, but Kane showed elite offence in a lower scoring time. 15-16 Kane would probably be not far to McDavid in terms of scoring this season.
Matthews was 6th in scoring and trailed the first place scorer by 15 pts.
I love goals and I know why we count them for more, but Kane showed elite offence in a lower scoring time. 15-16 Kane would probably be not far to McDavid in terms of scoring this season.
NyQuil
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SillyRabbit
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Holymakinaw
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Oneiro
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Matthews.
Underlyings aside, I'm not saying his defensive season was incredible but the jump in that aspect of his game while still scoring like he did is pretty damn impressive.
Underlyings aside, I'm not saying his defensive season was incredible but the jump in that aspect of his game while still scoring like he did is pretty damn impressive.
Kane’s season was also in a bit of a lull for top end talent having good seasons, and Matthews’ scoring placement looks worse because of missed games. Matthews was 3rd in point per game and only a small margin behind McDavid. Depends a bit on how much you want to knock a guy for that missed time in terms of the season at hand, but Matthews did win the Hart and Lindsay over McDavid despite that point gap and the missed games, so if we assume Kane’s production would be similar, I don’t think it’s out of line to think Matthews is better.
Vakarte
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ClydeLee
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I dont get how you are this way, everyone online I see who runs stats sites by this point gets how Kane, not by some fluke or happenstance, but every single year is an aberration in stats.
You know this too, you're a Hawks fan, but act like it's all in the numbers. Kane could pepper the net more... but he always every year produces more than metrics because they're not set to calculate his value. He creates wide open nets all the time for his teammates by his stick work but those aren't graded as high danger or high quality passes despite them.
Stats need to be able to add value in goaltender positioning vs shot or passes which he devastates. Especially that year with Panarin and Kane give and taking.
You can point out the defensive difference but it's goofy seeing people put Kanes, Even great offensive metrics as a loss when it's well known by anyone with understanding of it that he does things they don't value.
JaegerDice
The mark of my dignity shall scar thy DNA
- Dec 26, 2014
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This is a misrepresentation of the facts.
Kane routinely outperforms his OWN expected production.
The stats referenced above are on-ice metrics. Thats performance of the TEAM while Matthews or Kane are on the ice.
Kane will always get his cookies. We know that. But his impact on the TEAM’S control of play and share of chances is a very different matter.
Ducks in a row
Go Ducks Quack Quack
Matthews finished tied for 6th most points with his Hart win being 17 points behind McDavid who won the Art Ross while when Kane won the Hart also won the Art Ross Trophy by 17 points ahead of the 2nd highest point producer. I vote Kane.
Of course half of HF a will find this laughable but this is the player we watched game in and game out this season.
nowhereman
Registered User
That would actually be Brett Hull (if you're going based off citizenship and international play). Hull's hart-winning 1990-91 season is probably the greatest goalscoring season in history and he finished 2nd only to Gretzky in the scoring race. Matthews has a good case for #2, though.
And to answer the OP, I'll go with Matthews. Kane put up his numbers in a lower scoring league, which has to be considered, but he cheats on offense and is one of the biggest defensive liabilities in the sport. I think Matthews was the much better all-around player.
He does impact that more than the scoring chances, expected goals, etc as well though. Over larger samples we see his expected goals against numbers are roughly in line with his actual goals against numbers, but his actual goals for is significantly higher than his expected goals for numbers. I don’t think his impact on GF% is as strong as Matthews regardless, but I don’t think his typical possession numbers are reflective of it either. He’s a strong 5v5 player, just not as strong as the best all around players.
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KirkAlbuquerque
#WeNeverGetAGoodCoach
Kane was hands down the best player in the world that year and no one came close
Maplebeasts
I See Demons!!!!!
The answer is Kane......if you want to pretend goal scoring, position, play driving and defense don't matter.
There’s no telling how many points the 2016 version of Kane(playing alongside Panarin and Anisimov) would get playing in 2021/2022.
