Kaigorodov's case, or why Russian Hockey federation would never sign IIHF deal.

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Emule Richard

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Feb 28, 2002
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Originally Posted by gscarpenter2002
Putting aside the fact that you have no valid position on the choice of forum since the balance of convenience (place of contract, applicable law, etc.) massively favors the Russian courts as the appropriate jurisdiction, and putting aside the fact that Russian player contracts would in all likelihood designate the Russian courts as the exclusive forum in any event, you STILL have not responded to the basic point that an injunction is not available unless the damages being sustained are not compensable by money. And you still have not responded to the even more basic point that one can point to the transfer fee negotiation and the Russian club's willingness to allow their contracts to be unilaterally terminated so long as they receive enough money as the clearest evidence that such breach is compensable by monetary damages.

If the damages are compensable monetarily, then the Russian team should be taking action against the player for his breach of the contract, just as Warner did in Warner v. Nelson. In this case, the Russian player loses his incentive to sign a contract with the NHL team. As a result, the NHL team must eliminate this barrier by either paying the player whatever he would end up giving up in damages, or by avoiding lawsuit altogether by paying a transfer fee to buy the player out of his contract. It doesn't make sense to pay the player - especially now - since there is a cap on rookie compensation as well as non-rookie compensation...not to mention the added legal costs of determining the value of damages. Therefore, transfer fees are the most appealing way to get players out of Russia and into the NHL.

If the NHL wasn't afraid of this possibility, then no IIHF agreement with pre-set transfer payments would need to exist.
 
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Wetcoaster

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gscarpenter2002 said:
As promised, I am speechless. Color me amazed if it is in fact true (which I will continue to doubt, short of written documentation). Perhaps you can favour me with your school and year of call, as I did earlier. Just curious.
UVic 1984.
 

Wetcoaster

Guest
Richard said:
If the damages are compensable monetarily, then the Russian team should be taking action against the player for his breach of the contract, just as Warner did in Warner v. Nelson. In this case, the Russian player loses his incentive to sign a contract with the NHL team. As a result, the NHL team must eliminate this barrier by either paying the player whatever he would end up giving up in damages, or by avoiding lawsuit altogether by paying a transfer fee to buy the player out of his contract. It doesn't make sense to pay the player - especially now - since there is a cap on rookie compensation as well as non-rookie compensation...not to mention the added legal costs of determining the value of damages. Therefore, transfer fees are the most appealing way to get players out of Russia and into the NHL.

If the NHL wasn't afraid of this possibility, then no IIHF agreement with pre-set transfer payments would need to exist.

If the player is not under contract then nothing is payable absent the NHL?IIHF agreement. As long as the player is not under there is no legal impediment to any NHL team signing the player.

What the NHL/IIHF agreement does is pay a development fee if you will based upon where the player is drafted, the higher the draft, the higher the money. It also has in the past created a "window" where players under valid contracts with European teams could get out of the contract upon signing a deal with the NHL team amd the proper fee being paid per the schedule. that was what occurred with Zherdev although his team tried to hold him up.

The other advantage with the agreement is that there has been a binding arbitration procedure to deal with disputes. That occurred with Zherdev.

Absent an agreement, if the player is under contract to a Russian club and tries to play for an NHL club, it will likely end up in a court. IMHO that court will be where the NHL team that signed the player and where the player now resides. It will be messy since it does involve a personal services contract but there is precedent for a prohibitory injunction in the case of a person providing uniques services such as professional athlete.

Here is an excerpt from the NHL Standard Player Contract:

6. The Player represents and agrees that he has exceptional and unique knowledge, skill and ability as a hockey player, the loss of which cannot be estimated with certainty and cannot be fairly or adequately compensated by damages. The Player therefore agrees that the Club shall have the right, in addition to any other rights which the Club may possess, to enjoin him by appropriate injunctive proceedings without first exhausting any other remedy which may be available to the Club, from playing hockey for any other team and/or for any breach of any of the other provisions of this contract.
http://www.nhl.com/nhlhq/cba/archive/cba/exhibit1.html

Russian Super League player contracts have similar language which is hardly surprising.
 

GSC2k2*

Guest
Richard said:
If the damages are compensable monetarily, then the Russian team should be taking action against the player for his breach of the contract, just as Warner did in Warner v. Nelson. In this case, the Russian player loses his incentive to sign a contract with the NHL team. As a result, the NHL team must eliminate this barrier by either paying the player whatever he would end up giving up in damages, or by avoiding lawsuit altogether by paying a transfer fee to buy the player out of his contract. It doesn't make sense to pay the player - especially now - since there is a cap on rookie compensation as well as non-rookie compensation...not to mention the added legal costs of determining the value of damages. Therefore, transfer fees are the most appealing way to get players out of Russia and into the NHL.

If the NHL wasn't afraid of this possibility, then no IIHF agreement with pre-set transfer payments would need to exist.

Yes, this is for the most part why the IIHF agreement has been in place - to set forth an agreed regime under which transfer payments are to be made.

As foir whether the Russian player loses his incentive to sign, it is important to distinguish between a team being able to initiate an action for breach of contract (which would succeed or fail based on the terms of said contract) and being able to enforce any resulting judgment. In many if not most of the IIHF countries, there is reciprocity of enforcement, so the NHL teams would have more to fear with a lawsuit from a team in one of those countries than a Russian team (where there are problems with enforcing a Russian judgment in North America). As I have posted before, I doubt the issue of injunctions is much of a concern to NHL teams, but the prospect of defending lawsuits for tortious interference and indemnifying players from many of those countries in their breach-of-contract lawsuits is not appetizing. As well, it creates risk and uncertainty that can be mitigated rather easily by an agreement such as the IIHF/NHL agreement. It is also good business of course.

The recent discussion in this thread has not been over whether an IIHF/NHL agreement needs to be in place. The question is how business can be conducted between the NHL and Russian players/teams in the absence of such an agreement. The main point is that, while there may be breach-of-contract issues (depending as stated above on the terms and conditions of the player contract) and there may be a tortious interference claim that may have to be defended, there is no chance IMO of a Russian team obtaining an injunction (which reduces Russian teams' leverage considerably), and the Russian teams are severely hamstrung from enforcing a Russian judgment against the player in Canada at least. I cannot speak with respect to other jurisdictions, but I would have my doubts there as well. As long as the player does not have his assets in Russia, he is relatively safe form a Russian judgment until Russia enters into reciprocal enforcement arrangements with North American jurisdictions (which is doubtful so long as the Russian legal system is in its infancy and the rule of law is in doubt to the degree that it is).

As for a claim of tortious interference directly against the team, that is not the easiest type of claim to prove and NHL teams can get around that (under Candian law at least) to a degree by signing the player contract in Russia (thereby giving themselves a forum non conveniens defence). That being said, NHL teams still would expend monies to defend themselves, and it could be costly. That being said, it will take only one Russian player in each jurisdiction to set a precedent.
 

Emule Richard

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Wetcoaster, I am not sure how your post responds to mine above. Clearly the IIHF-NHL agreement has benefits aside from the developmental fees. That said, the developmental fees are given up by the NHL teams to appease the European clubs and to avoid court proceedings that would have come about absent such compensation. It is safe to say that the transfer window would not exist in the absence of the pre-set development fees or other similar consideration.

Also, it is very obvious that if a player is not under contract to a Russian team, there should be no issue with regard to compensation.

gscarpenter2002 said:
As foir whether the Russian player loses his incentive to sign, it is important to distinguish between a team being able to initiate an action for breach of contract (which would succeed or fail based on the terms of said contract) and being able to enforce any resulting judgment. In many if not most of the IIHF countries, there is reciprocity of enforcement, so the NHL teams would have more to fear with a lawsuit from a team in one of those countries than a Russian team (where there are problems with enforcing a Russian judgment in North America). As I have posted before, I doubt the issue of injunctions is much of a concern to NHL teams, but the prospect of defending lawsuits for tortious interference and indemnifying players from many of those countries in their breach-of-contract lawsuits is not appetizing. As well, it creates risk and uncertainty that can be mitigated rather easily by an agreement such as the IIHF/NHL agreement. It is also good business of course.
--------------------------------
As long as the player does not have his assets in Russia, he is relatively safe form a Russian judgment until Russia enters into reciprocal enforcement arrangements with North American jurisdictions (which is doubtful so long as the Russian legal system is in its infancy and the rule of law is in doubt to the degree that it is).

Very good information.

I think we all agree that in the near future a precedent will be set on whether or not transfer payments will be required, and on the value of such payments if required.

It seems that the key issue at hand is whether or not the Russian team will actually be able to successfully enforce a judgement against a player or a team. Unfortunately, I am not yet sure how this issue has traditionally been resolved in international disputes, but I am of the understanding that the final result will depend on 2 issues - both of which I cannot comment on at this time:
1. Where the lawsuit takes place
2. Whether the damages or injunction, if awarded, can be enforced in the required jurisdiction (leading to a further question of where the player/team's assets are held)

I have a question for both of you - more for my personal understanding than for the sake of this argument :):
- A company in Russia has an exclusive 3-year lease on a piece of equipment.
- One year into the contract, the equipment is taken away from the Russian company and is used by a North American company because they are willing to pay more money to the lessor.
- The value of the Russian company drops significantly because it cannot find a piece of equipment of similar efficiency and can no longer achieve production targets.
- What happens :
1. assuming the lessor owns all assets through a Russian company?
2. assuming the lessor owns all assets through a USA company?
3. assuming the lessor owns all assets through a BVI company?

Richard
 
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wilka91*

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What are you all talking about?

Kaigorodov or any other player under contract in the RSL is free to leave but he's the one who'll get sued by his team for breach of contract.

There is no agreement between the NHL and RSL, which means there will be no actions.
 

Wetcoaster

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roshiajin said:
What are you all talking about?

Kaigorodov or any other player under contract in the RSL is free to leave but he's the one who'll get sued by his team for breach of contract.

There is no agreement between the NHL and RSL, which means there will be no actions.
Not so. An NHL team signing a player under a valid contract could be sued and so could the NHL itself it registers the contract under the actionable tort (civil wrong) of interference with contractual relations.

Interference with Contractual Relations

The tort of interference with contractual relations permits a plaintiff to recover damages based upon a claim that a defendant interfered with the plaintiff's contractual relations. The elements of an intentional interference with contractual relations claim are (1) a valid contract between plaintiff and a third party; (2) defendant's knowledge of this contract; (3) defendant's intentional acts designed to induce a breach or disruption of the contractual relationship; (4) actual breach or disruption of the contractual relationship; and (5) resulting damage.
http://www.inc.com/articles/1999/11/15387.html
 

Lionel Hutz

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Apr 13, 2004
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Wetcoaster said:
Why?

The NHL team signs a personal services (NHL player) contract. The subject matter of the contract and the parties are within the jursidiction of the Ontario courts

The Russian team files suit seeking an injunction claiming breach of contract on the basis of the foreign contract previously signed. The Russian party is not seeking to enforce its contract but rater prevent a breach in a foreign jurisdiction. The court would have the power to grant an injunction against the payer performing services for the NHL club.

There is no problem in the Ontario court accepting jurisdiction. Cases involving foreign contracts occur all the time. I have done anumber of them over the years.

This is just basic conflict of laws (private international law) principles. Have you actually studied Conflict of Laws (or privaye international law as it is sometimes called)? Or are you simply pulling out domestic legal issues?

Here is a primer on the area.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_international_law

A question, out of curiosity. You've said many times you are a legal expert. Not to say I don't beleive you, but why do you always give links to things such as "wikipedia" and other similar sources for authorities. Just seems a bit odd, I'm but a simple 3rd year law student, but I would never refer someone to wikipedia as an authority.
 
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Resolute

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Well, having just read this entire thread, I have but one question for Wetcoaster:

What makes a professional athelete "unique?" Your entire argument seems to be predicated on the fact that a hockey player is not replacable. I am at a loss to understand how that can be true, as there are literally thousands of pro hockey players that could easily take this players place.

If the argument is level of talent, then I would also suggest that Kaigorodov's level of talent is hardly unique as well, and replacable.

I wonder, if the worlds best plumbers or petroleum transfer technicians would be protected under a similar argument?
 

Wetcoaster

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Lionel Hutz said:
A question, out of curiosity. You've said many times you are a legal expert. Not to say I don't beleive you, but why do you always give links to things such as "wikipedia" and other similar sources for authorities. Just seems a bit odd, I'm but a simple 3rd year law student, but I would never refer someone to wikipedia as an authority.

I never said I was legal expert, I am a lawyer who has practised in certain areas of law for about 20 years.

In terms of sources perhaps I do so because I am not dealing with lawyers and law students generally on these boards -so I do not quote law books for the most part. I could quote Linden, Canadian Tort Law or Redfern, Law and Practice of International Commercial Arbitrations or Castel, Canadian Conflict of Laws or Waddams, The Law of Contracts or England & Christie, Employment Law in Canada - but how useful is that for the average poster here. So I try to refer to resources that the average person can look at and understand that conveys the essence of the legal concept. Does some of the shading of legal meaning get lost? Possibly. But what good is splitting infinitesimal legal hairs in this forum?

I try to keep the audience I am addressing in mind. That is problem many lawyers have and why many confuse the heck out of people when they go out into practise.

It is more difficult to reduce complex legal matters to digestible pieces for your clients but that is the real challenge. You have to give them enough information so that they are truly able to give informed instructions. Lawyers get themselves in trouble when they start trying to make client decisions instead of leaving it up to the client - check the disciplinary indeces and legal liability reports from law societies and bar associations and you will see this is a common problem.

One of the areas I have taught at law school is plain English drafting. I try to get students to quit thinking they have to write or sound "like lawyers". "Null, void and of no effect", "Give, devise and bequeath", etc. are redundant legal trilogies. One exercise I have used in the past is to distibute a 14 page standard chartered bank mortgage and ask the students to draft a document with the same effect in 2 pages or less. I have also taught legal research and writing so I have little problem preparing briefs for Chambers as well as trial and appellate courts.

If I was lecturing to law students or conducting a CLE (Continuing Legal Education) course for my peers that would be different. This is more like presenting to a People's Law School seminar.

If you check my posts you will see that I also have provided legal cites in the past and where relevant excerpts from the case law and statutes (e.g. Bertuzzi to show how the Criminal Code interacts with the case law in professional sports in Canadian decisions).

We lawyers wrap so much of what we do in needless legal jargon making law an arcane subject not readily accessible to the person who needs it that there has been a severe backlash in recent years. The profession is finally realizing that law has to be accessible and part of that is getting rid of unnecessary legal jargon and secret society handshakes.

I do not direct this to you personally. However many law students and lawyers are overly impressed with themselves - they need to get over it - they are not that smart. In practise they learn just how little they really know and and that legal practise often is more about the "practise" than the "legal".

Does this answer your question adequately?
 

Wetcoaster

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Resolute said:
Well, having just read this entire thread, I have but one question for Wetcoaster:

What makes a professional athelete "unique?" Your entire argument seems to be predicated on the fact that a hockey player is not replacable. I am at a loss to understand how that can be true, as there are literally thousands of pro hockey players that could easily take this players place.

If the argument is level of talent, then I would also suggest that Kaigorodov's level of talent is hardly unique as well, and replacable.

I wonder, if the worlds best plumbers or petroleum transfer technicians would be protected under a similar argument?
Because in the world there are about 750 people who can be professional NHL hockey players.

While you may be able to train any person of average intelligence to be a police officer, plumber, teacher, and probably a lawyer, such is not the case with hockey players or other professinal athletes. The law has determined that professional athletes and top actors, singers etc. have unique skills.

That is also what a professional hockey player agrees to when he signs his contract as you can see from the NHL Standard Player Contract excerpt I provided above.

Similar considerations would apply to other elite professionals (doctors, scientists, etc.) as well as persons with an elite level knowledge skills and abilities in their chosen field. That is why courts will enforce non-competition clauses for some people when they leave their employment as long as the restrictions are not overly broad.
 

Emule Richard

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Resolute said:
What makes a professional athelete "unique?" Your entire argument seems to be predicated on the fact that a hockey player is not replacable. I am at a loss to understand how that can be true, as there are literally thousands of pro hockey players that could easily take this players place.

If the argument is level of talent, then I would also suggest that
Kaigorodov's level of talent is hardly unique as well, and replacable.

I wonder, if the worlds best plumbers or petroleum transfer technicians would be protected under a similar argument?

This is a point I agree with Wetcoaster on. It is well known in the entertainment industry that Actors and Musicians are "unique" because of the exceptional value they provide the owner of their contract. This is one reason that NHL players have such a high market value and their salaries are so high. If i'm paying my petroleum transfer technicians and plumbers $1.0M per year, then they probably have some "unique" talent and you probably could use a similar argument and win. Value is what makes these top-notch athletes unique.

Google and Microsoft are curently locked in a legal battle over Kai-Fu Lee. At this point, the valuable exec, especially for Chinese initiatives, has been blocked from working with Google by a US court. He is currently NOT allowed to work for Google. Google has made an appeal, but it is clear that the terms of this exec's contract are valuable, just as top hockey players are to their team and league. Google still stands a chance to win the case, but they already lost round one and their key argument is that the exec's role will be significantly different than it was with Microsoft - it would be hard to argue that Kaigorodov will have a different job when he plays in the NHL as opposed to Russia.

Also, I think we also have to look beyond the value of Kaigorodov, as Russian salaries are on the rise. I would not be surprised to see better Russian players stay in Russia as opposed to coming to the NHL, and a precedent needs to be set that can be applied to ALL such player transfers - how valuable is Ovechkin if he is locked down in a 5 year contract? Immensely valuable! Who knows how good Kaigorodov will be by the time his contract expires. He could be as good as Sergei Fedorov - and i'm going to go out on a limb and say that Sergei Fedorov to Roman Abramovich is at least as valuable of an entertainment asset as The Killers are to their record label. Why does Real Madrid have to pay Manchester United so much to bring David Beckham over - unique talent & celebrity! And even mediocre footballers have transfer payments in the millions of dollars - because they provide "unique" value.

Another argument giving player contracts significant value is the fact that NHL teams give player contracts significant value in determining the value of their team - now we're talking accounting value, treating the player contract as an asset. What do you get when you buy an NHL hockey team for $100 Million? You get logos and trademarks which are reasonably valuable, you get a whole bunch of used equipment, and some expected revenues that are derived through the ownership of top talent. In fact (if I remember correctly from one of my classes in University), in purchasing an NHL team, the purchaser can accrue 50% of the team's value to "the value of player contracts" which can be amortized over the duration of the contracts in place at the purchase date. What this means is that the 20 player contracts are worth $50 Million and depreciate in value each year just as an Airplane would for Delta Airlines. This is why hockey players at the top level are unique - having them under contract rather than somebody who plays Men's Senior Hockey is extremely significant in making the NHL team more valuable than a Men's Senior Hockey team. How valuable are AHL teams compared to NHL teams? ECHL teams compared to AHL teams? Men's Senior teams compared to ECHL teams? The difference is derived from the talent level of the players - because the talent is "unique."

Richard
 
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Emule Richard

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roshiajin said:
What are you all talking about?

Kaigorodov or any other player under contract in the RSL is free to leave but he's the one who'll get sued by his team for breach of contract.

There is no agreement between the NHL and RSL, which means there will be no actions.

Correct, the player should be sued. However, why would a player decide sign with an NHL team for a certain amount and then be sued for a similar amount because of his breach of contract? As a player, it just doesn't make sense. This is why the NHL team (or up until now the NHL with it's agreement with the IIHF) must insert itself into the equation - to eliminate the player's fear of lawsuit and thus make the player's move to NA worthwhile.

The issue then becomes:
1. What are appropriate damages for such breach of contract?
- See my above message.
2. Can the Russian team actually recover the player's money & assets due to jurisdiction issues?
- So far, gscarpenter2002 has provided the best answer, and for this reason it will be interesting to see how everything pans out.

Richard
 
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wilka91*

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May 5, 2004
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gscarpenter2002 said:
Yes, this is for the most part why the IIHF agreement has been in place - to set forth an agreed regime under which transfer payments are to be made.

As foir whether the Russian player loses his incentive to sign, it is important to distinguish between a team being able to initiate an action for breach of contract (which would succeed or fail based on the terms of said contract) and being able to enforce any resulting judgment. In many if not most of the IIHF countries, there is reciprocity of enforcement, so the NHL teams would have more to fear with a lawsuit from a team in one of those countries than a Russian team (where there are problems with enforcing a Russian judgment in North America). As I have posted before, I doubt the issue of injunctions is much of a concern to NHL teams, but the prospect of defending lawsuits for tortious interference and indemnifying players from many of those countries in their breach-of-contract lawsuits is not appetizing. As well, it creates risk and uncertainty that can be mitigated rather easily by an agreement such as the IIHF/NHL agreement. It is also good business of course.

The recent discussion in this thread has not been over whether an IIHF/NHL agreement needs to be in place. The question is how business can be conducted between the NHL and Russian players/teams in the absence of such an agreement. The main point is that, while there may be breach-of-contract issues (depending as stated above on the terms and conditions of the player contract) and there may be a tortious interference claim that may have to be defended, there is no chance IMO of a Russian team obtaining an injunction (which reduces Russian teams' leverage considerably), and the Russian teams are severely hamstrung from enforcing a Russian judgment against the player in Canada at least. I cannot speak with respect to other jurisdictions, but I would have my doubts there as well. As long as the player does not have his assets in Russia, he is relatively safe form a Russian judgment until Russia enters into reciprocal enforcement arrangements with North American jurisdictions (which is doubtful so long as the Russian legal system is in its infancy and the rule of law is in doubt to the degree that it is).

As for a claim of tortious interference directly against the team, that is not the easiest type of claim to prove and NHL teams can get around that (under Candian law at least) to a degree by signing the player contract in Russia (thereby giving themselves a forum non conveniens defence). That being said, NHL teams still would expend monies to defend themselves, and it could be costly. That being said, it will take only one Russian player in each jurisdiction to set a precedent.

The question is not whether the Russian team can or cannot obtain the enforcement of a judgement in Canada or US, because as a Russian citizen, the player who left to North America and didn't comply with the judgement will face serious charges when he returns to Russia. A contract with a hockey club is a contract under the regulations of the Russian Labour Code. If it is breached by any party, the other party can initiate an action in damages or whatever the Code says. And that's why Russians under contract in Russia won't leave before their agreement expires, unless they're seeking political refuge in Canada (which won't be granted anyway).
 

Lionel Hutz

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Apr 13, 2004
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Wetcoaster said:
Does this answer your question adequately?

Yes, thanks. To each his own, but I tend not to use sources such as that. If I do use a source, I will usually reference a case and explain briefly the facts and the ratio.

Actually, I tend to just not make complex legal arguments on these boards. If I discuss the law with one who is not a lawyer, I state my opinion and explain my understanding of the concept in general terms and they can take it or leave it. Some posters know enough about me to give me credibility in this area.

The last time I developed an argument here, I constructed an argument complete with authorities concerning the Bertuzzi issue. It received a few replies from teenagers who said "that is not how the law works" or something to that effect. At that time I told myself I wouldn't bother to do it again.

Oh, and I have gotten over myself quite well. I write all my correspondence in plain terms and carry on my discussions the same. Now that I work in a firm, I have a certain amount of pride in my abillity to reduce this stuff into understandable terms for my clients. However, there is still a time and place for legalese.
 

wilka91*

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May 5, 2004
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The biggest problem here is that anyone who is a lwayer on this thread, is using American/Canadian legal arguments. I'm sorry, but Russia is not a Common Law country. What you call "precedents" doesn't exist there, and any examples of cases posted here are irrelevant.
 

Lionel Hutz

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Locking the Lounge??
roshiajin said:
The biggest problem here is that anyone who is a lwayer on this thread, is using American/Canadian legal arguments. I'm sorry, but Russia is not a Common Law country. What you call "precedents" doesn't exist there, and any examples of cases posted here are irrelevant.

Its not that simple.
 

GSC2k2*

Guest
Richard said:
This is a point I agree with Wetcoaster on. It is well known in the entertainment industry that Actors and Musicians are "unique" because of the exceptional value they provide the owner of their contract. This is one reason that NHL players have such a high market value and their salaries are so high. If i'm paying my petroleum transfer technicians and plumbers $1.0M per year, then they probably have some "unique" talent and you probably could use a similar argument and win. Value is what makes these top-notch athletes unique.

Google and Microsoft are curently locked in a legal battle over Kai-Fu Lee. At this point, the valuable exec, especially for Chinese initiatives, has been blocked from working with Google by a US court. He is currently NOT allowed to work for Google. Google has made an appeal, but it is clear that the terms of this exec's contract are valuable, just as top hockey players are to their team and league. Google still stands a chance to win the case, but they already lost round one and their key argument is that the exec's role will be significantly different than it was with Microsoft - it would be hard to argue that Kaigorodov will have a different job when he plays in the NHL as opposed to Russia.

Also, I think we also have to look beyond the value of Kaigorodov, as Russian salaries are on the rise. I would not be surprised to see better Russian players stay in Russia as opposed to coming to the NHL, and a precedent needs to be set that can be applied to ALL such player transfers - how valuable is Ovechkin if he is locked down in a 5 year contract? Immensely valuable! Who knows how good Kaigorodov will be by the time his contract expires. He could be as good as Sergei Fedorov - and i'm going to go out on a limb and say that Sergei Fedorov to Roman Abramovich is at least as valuable of an entertainment asset as The Killers are to their record label. Why does Real Madrid have to pay Manchester United so much to bring David Beckham over - unique talent & celebrity! And even mediocre footballers have transfer payments in the millions of dollars - because they provide "unique" value.

Another argument giving player contracts significant value is the fact that NHL teams give player contracts significant value in determining the value of their team - now we're talking accounting value, treating the player contract as an asset. What do you get when you buy an NHL hockey team for $100 Million? You get logos and trademarks which are reasonably valuable, you get a whole bunch of used equipment, and some expected revenues that are derived through the ownership of top talent. In fact (if I remember correctly from one of my classes in University), in purchasing an NHL team, the purchaser can accrue 50% of the team's value to "the value of player contracts" which can be amortized over the duration of the contracts in place at the purchase date. What this means is that the 20 player contracts are worth $50 Million and depreciate in value each year just as an Airplane would for Delta Airlines. This is why hockey players at the top level are unique - having them under contract rather than somebody who plays Men's Senior Hockey is extremely significant in making the NHL team more valuable than a Men's Senior Hockey team. How valuable are AHL teams compared to NHL teams? ECHL teams compared to AHL teams? Men's Senior teams compared to ECHL teams? The difference is derived from the talent level of the players - because the talent is "unique."

Richard
While I would say that there are maybe 10 or 15 hockey players whose talents would qualify as truly unique (and I could probably round up 30 GM's who would agree with me and testify as witnesses to that effect with great persuasiveness), you guys are missing the point a little bit. I suggest a reversion back to basic principles is in order.

The question that raised the point in the first place is whether team (even if they surmounted the exceedingly difficult issue of jurisdiction) a Russian club would be able to obtain an injunction. The threshold test for obtaining an injunction is whether the matter is something that be adequately accounted for by an award of damages. If it is, an injunction will not be granted, and the Russian club (in this case) would be free to pursue those damages in the normal course. If it is not something that can be adequately compensated for by damages alone, the courts will then go on to consider the other merits in play for that particular set of facts in considering whether to award a judgment (such as the terms of the contractual clause in question - assuming, that is, that one did not use the "tortious interference" argument that Wetcoaster used). This is the "gateway", if you will.

In order to pass through that gateway, as I said, one has to show that damages are not an adequate remedy. Now, in order to prove the inadequacy of damages, that is where the "unique talent" issue comes into play. It has been argued from time to time that actors and musicians have unique talents and other aspects, and accordingly their unique qualities put them in a position where the loss of that particular actor or musician constitutes a situation where damages are not an adequate remedy. In developing something inherently creative like a movie or a song, the argument is that without the elements provided by that certain person, you wind up with something inherently different. You cannot have a "Tom Cruise movie" without Tom Cruise. If you want to record an Eminem song, you cannot do so without that person. That position has found some favour in the courts.

THAT BEING SAID, before we even consider the issue of athletes in this context, Wetcoaster has suggested in this thread that this is the rule for actors and musicians. That is slightly misleading. As is the case with just about every legal issue and most certainly with respect to the law of injunctions, it is dependent on the facts. Tom Cruise and Eminem are one thing. The sixth or seventh lead actor in the movie with maybe five lines and some standing around, or the session drummer who is supposed to play on Eminem's song, is something else. As you move between those two extremes, the line is blurred. Even for actors/musicians/creative types, it is not a hard and fast rule. It depends on the facts, even for those easier situations.

Now, to apply this to a hockey player, it is true that there are about 690 NHL players at any one point. To suggest (as Wetcoaster does above) that this is the total universe of professional hockey players is of course wrong, but I will give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he means NHL players (and has rounded up to 750, for reasons unclear to me - injuries, perhaps). Of that 690, a number of them are "on the bubble", in that they will not last even an entire season and will be cut or sent to the AHL during the season and replaced (perhaps this is where the "750" comes from?). I believe I read somewhere that there is a 10% or so turnover from year to year. Clearly, in any event, a player's uniqueness (even assuming there is such a thing) is extremely transitory in the best case, quite unlike the more permanent qualities that are pointed to in actor/musician cases. Secondly, I believe that you could get a hockey man to argue persuasively that many hockey players are for the most part interchangeable, and that (at best) there might be a continuum of "specialness". Some players (Gretzky, Lemieux) are unquestionably unique. Other elite players (Pronger, Neidermayer, Iginla, Brodeur, etc.) certainly have some special qualities. The grinders of the league are arguably not unique at all. Accordingly, while you might have an argument that an alltime great like Gretzky might be such that damages would not be an adequate remedy, you might have a hard time making that argument for Wade Belak. You can also throw in the fact that the argument might be more easily made for an individual sport than for a team sport like hockey where even the most unique player plays less than half the game and the number of players who draw an audience by themselves can be counted on one hand.

On top of that, however, is the looming issue that I have posted about five times in this thread and which Wetcoaster has avoided like the plague. It is this: recall that the point of arguing that a player is unique in the first place is to show that damages are not an adequate remedy. Money cannot replace what this player (or actor or musician) means to me. Exactly HOW can any Russian club take this position when the facts are that they have spent the last little while arguing over the appropriate fee for that player? The Russian clubs are perfectly content to allow those players to leave - for the appropriate fee. That is fine, but it blows up one's argument that this same player is unique and his absence cannot be compensated for in monetary damages.

To sum up:

1. Injunctions are only available where damages are not an adequate remedy;

2. Uniqueness is only relevant in determining whether damages are an adequate remedy;

3. Even if you accept the argument that you can apply the same "unique talent/qualities" argument to hockey players that has been applied to actors/musicians, there is at best a continuum of specialness which is dependent on the particular facts.

4. There are inherent difficulties in proving uniqueness in a sport with transitory qualities where uniqueness seems to fade in and out (unlike those pointed to in the case of actors/musicians);

5. In a team sport, the uniqueness of a given hockey player is extremely difficult to prove;

6. In a circumstance where the only reason the parties would be seeking an injunction is because their representatives had agreed that there is an amount of compensation that is to be paid but temporarily have not established the EXACT amount of that compensation (with a lengthy history of employing such a compensation model for as long as the NHL/IIHF agreements have been in place), it is impossible to then coherently argue that damages are suddenly not an appropriate remedy.

It might be different if the IIHF were arguing that the NHL must never take their players and had sought an absolute prohibition from the get-go. That is not the case, and never has been the case. It has always been about the amount of the fees. That fact is FATAL to being awarded an injunction.

On a final point, Wetcoaster has quoted certain language in the standard NHL contract setting forth the player's uniqueness. He has extrapolated that language to the Russian player's contract, without any confirmation of his source for doing so. Cutting him some slack on that point, I am familiar with that language. As it turns out, I have signed contracts with that language stated in it as they pertain to my own services. It is fairly standard "boilerplate" language in personal services contracts. Now I could say at this point that none of the contractual language in the player's contract matters because ole' Wettie's position is foudned on TORT and not the player's contract, but I don't want to be cruel and embarrass Wetcoaster on that point again. So I won't. I will point out, however, that the parties' actions speak louder than standard boilerplate language. The parties in question were negotiating the players' monetary value; that trumps that argument. The parties clearly evidenced a mutual intent that the player's services were not so unique that an amount of money could not replace those services. To me, the boilerplate language in the contract (assuming Russian contracts are the same as the SPC used in the NHL) is easily overcome as an obstacle.
 

Resolute

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Mar 4, 2005
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Well, you said it a hell of a lot better than I could, Carpenter.

And dont hold your breath waiting for an answer from Wetcoaster. He's proven repeatedly that unless he can find the answer in a wikipedia article, he wont even try. I've noticed that he never has an opinion of his own.
 

Egil

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Mar 6, 2002
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To drag this away from the legal front for a minute, some information on Kaigorodov.

#1 Ottawa has a deal with Kaigorodov in place, and Kaigorodov wants to play in the NHL.

#2 Ottawa doesn't have a deal for his transfer, and is unsure as to what will happen

#3 Kaigorodov only has 1 year remaining on his contract, so we can get him for no transfer next summer.
 

Wetcoaster

Guest
Resolute said:
Well, you said it a hell of a lot better than I could, Carpenter.

And dont hold your breath waiting for an answer from Wetcoaster. He's proven repeatedly that unless he can find the answer in a wikipedia article, he wont even try. I've noticed that he never has an opinion of his own.
Then you obviously have not read many of my posts.
 

Resolute

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Mar 4, 2005
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Oh but I have, here, and on forums other than this.

Any particular reason why you chose to defend yourself against a layperson, rather than defend your legal reputation against another lawyer? Why is it so hard to answer Carpenter's question? Especially when it seems to be the salient point of this discussion.
 

Wetcoaster

Guest
Resolute said:
Oh but I have, here, and on forums other than this.

Any particular reason why you chose to defend yourself against a layperson, rather than defend your legal reputation against another lawyer? Why is it so hard to answer Carpenter's question? Especially when it seems to be the salient point of this discussion.
We have a difference of opinion and have hashed it out. We still have a difference of opinion. That happens alot with lawyers - that is why one side wins in court and the other side loses. however both remain an opinion until the case is tested.

I believe that the Russian team would have a lawsuit for tortious interference in contractual relations with an NHL team signing a plyer under contract in Russia and I cited the cases to back it up.

I also believe that the Russian team has standing to seek a prohibitory injunction against the player playing in the NHL. The court (Canada or US) would not be ordering the player to play in Russia just that he could not play in the NHL.
 

GSC2k2*

Guest
Wetcoaster said:
We have a difference of opinion and have hashed it out. We still have a difference of opinion. That happens alot with lawyers - that is why one side wins in court and the other side loses. however both remain an opinion until the case is tested.

I believe that the Russian team would have a lawsuit for tortious interference in contractual relations with an NHL team signing a plyer under contract in Russia and I cited the cases to back it up.

I also believe that the Russian team has standing to seek a prohibitory injunction against the player playing in the NHL. The court (Canada or US) would not be ordering the player to play in Russia just that he could not play in the NHL.
Well, that is one way to look at it ...

Another way to look at it is this:

1. You made a bunch of essentially unsupported positions, seemingly in the hopes of not being challenged by laypeople.

2. I challenged you on it and explained why your positions were dead wrong;

3. You responded by putting forth an inept argument jumbling up together a tort argument with breach-of-contract caselawand an incoherent line of reasoning behind the entire position, while leaving my original position untouched;

4. I responded yet again, this time completely annihilating your position and asking you to yet again respond to my original rationale and my follow-ups;

5. You continued to decline to respond to my position, essentially employing the Black Knight Defence.

"It's only a flesh wound ..."
 
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