Kaigorodov's case, or why Russian Hockey federation would never sign IIHF deal.

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Resolute

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Wetcoaster said:
We have a difference of opinion and have hashed it out. We still have a difference of opinion. That happens alot with lawyers - that is why one side wins in court and the other side loses. however both remain an opinion until the case is tested.

I believe that the Russian team would have a lawsuit for tortious interference in contractual relations with an NHL team signing a plyer under contract in Russia and I cited the cases to back it up.

I also believe that the Russian team has standing to seek a prohibitory injunction against the player playing in the NHL. The court (Canada or US) would not be ordering the player to play in Russia just that he could not play in the NHL.

I get that. What I am asking is whether, in your opionion, Carpenter is correct in stating that courts are very unlikely in awarding an injuction when there is an opportunity for financial compensation. Furthern I am wondering why the fairly long history of the RSL giving up players for financial compensation would not work against the RSL if that statement is accurate.

You two have been arguing quite well, imo, but you have constantly danced around that issue. Since it appears your entire argument is predicated on the ability of the RSL to gain an injunction preventing a Russian player under Russian contract from coming over to the NHL, I cannot accept your argument so long as you are unable to answer this question. If Carpenter is wrong, please explain how.
 

chara

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To drag this away from the legal front for a minute, some information on Kaigorodov.

#1 Ottawa has a deal with Kaigorodov in place, and Kaigorodov wants to play in the NHL.

#2 Ottawa doesn't have a deal for his transfer, and is unsure as to what will happen

#3 Kaigorodov only has 1 year remaining on his contract, so we can get him for no transfer next summer.


Exactly.

The Russians can play hardball and get nothing for him next year or be reasonable and allow the young man to play in the best league in the world. They would still make a nice a little profit. The days of the Russians being a political superpower and exerting some kind of state mind control are over.

And another thing to the Russians: do not underestimate Bettman. In the end, he fought a bigger battle with the NHLPA and won. This Russian issue is chump change in comparison.
 

SENATOR

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chara said:
Exactly.

The Russians can play hardball and get nothing for him next year or be reasonable and allow the young man to play in the best league in the world. They would still make a nice a little profit. The days of the Russians being a political superpower and exerting some kind of state mind control are over.

And another thing to the Russians: do not underestimate Bettman. In the end, he fought a bigger battle with the NHLPA and won. This Russian issue is chump change in comparison.

What superpower status has anything to do with hockey? So let then NHL and the american superpower status to force russian hand in robing RSL from its young and exiting talent. Stop being selfish and spoiled. NHL is far from the best league in the world. It has third tier tv contract, no interest what so ever from USA market. NHL is just powered by a very little country of 31 million people-Canada. Without Canada, NHL would be somewhere in the beer bowling league status. Actually it is in many places in US, where it looked upon as the beer league where players fight. It is a very hard truth.
 

kdb209

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Jan 26, 2005
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SENATOR said:
What superpower status has anything to do with hockey? So let then NHL and the american superpower status to force russian hand in robing RSL from its young and exiting talent. Stop being selfish and spoiled. NHL is far from the best league in the world. It has third tier tv contract, no interest what so ever from USA market. NHL is just powered by a very little country of 31 million people-Canada. Without Canada, NHL would be somewhere in the beer bowling league status. Actually it is in many places in US, where it looked upon as the beer league where players fight. It is a very hard truth.

"NHL is far from the best league in the world" ???

So, please tell, what then are the best leagues in the world?

And please explain, then why all the best players from those leagues want to play in the NHL (which is what you're bitter about in the first place) and somehow with the best players from the best leagues it is far from the best league in the world.

You complain about TV contracts. How much is paid for the TV rights in all your other "best leagues in the world"? Yes, the TV deals for the NHL are small compared to other US major professional sports, but they are significantly greater than those for hockey in any other leagues and countries.

And are you just referring to the new Comcast/OLN deal? You do know, that that is just a small part of the NHL TVs coverage - there is CBC, TSN, and Sportsnet coverage in Canada, and every US NHL team has their own local cable or broadcast TV deals. The total of these deals dwarfs the NHL National deals with OLN and NBC.

The fact is, the NHL generates more revenue than any hockey league in the world, and as a result can pay the highest salaries of any league in the world, so it attracts the top players in the world.

Your bitterness is making you seem mis-informed (to be charitable).
 

Wetcoaster

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Resolute said:
I get that. What I am asking is whether, in your opionion, Carpenter is correct in stating that courts are very unlikely in awarding an injuction when there is an opportunity for financial compensation. Furthern I am wondering why the fairly long history of the RSL giving up players for financial compensation would not work against the RSL if that statement is accurate.

You two have been arguing quite well, imo, but you have constantly danced around that issue. Since it appears your entire argument is predicated on the ability of the RSL to gain an injunction preventing a Russian player under Russian contract from coming over to the NHL, I cannot accept your argument so long as you are unable to answer this question. If Carpenter is wrong, please explain how.
He has one opinion, I have another. No surprise that lawyers hold differing opinions.

Here is the basic manner in which various injunctive relief operates. This si basic law school stuff from contract law and remedies.

A court may be able to restrain a party from committing a breach of contract by injunction. There are three types of injunction:

· Interlocutory injunctions are designed to regulate the position of the parties pending a hearing.
· A prohibitory injunction orders a defendant not to do something in breach of contract.
· A mandatory injunction requires a defendant to reverse the effects of an existing breach.

With prohibitive injunctions, a court, in the exercise of its discretion, will not be influenced by the fact that the defendant's compliance with the injunction would be unduly onerous or that the breach would cause the plaintiff little prejudice. However, with mandatory injunctions, a court will apply the 'balance of convenience' test, refusing relief if the hardship caused to the defendant by compliance with the order outweighs the consequential advantages to the plaintiff.

The general rule is that an injunction will not be granted if the effect is to directly or indirectly compel the defendant to do acts for which the plaintiff could not have specific performance. For example, to require performance of a contract for personal services. Usually in employment/personal service cases financial compensation trumps an injunction. But in cases involving professional athletes, actors, singers and such - the courts look upon as having unique or special skills or talents - courts will issue injunctions in such cases. The injunction does not force the player to fulfill his previous contract - only that he cannot play for the team subsequently signing him.

I look at the case law in this area going back to the 1843 case of Lumley v. Wagner where a prohibitory injunction was granted with an opera singer. It is the classic case in the common law and well-known to all law students.
http://www.4lawschool.com/contracts/wagner.htm

Also the case of Warner Brothers v. Nelson (Bette Davis) is germane. The British courts enforced a US contract Davis had signed with Warner Brothers film studio and issued an injunction against Bette Davis from acting in a film in Britain pursuant to a contract she had signed with a British film studio. The point here is taht a foreign contract will be cosidred under the usual conflict of laws (aka private international laws) principles.

So if you have a contract with a Russian team which contain negative obligations, i.e you are exclusively bound to the Russian team and have agreed not play for anyone else, then it is a personal service contract containing negative obligations which can be enforced by injunction without compelling positive performance of the whole contract. That is the Lumley v. Wagner principle.

In the Bette Davis case the negative stipulations were too wide (basically prevented her from doing anything except acting for Warner Brothers) so the court severed the wide stipulation and enforced it in part. IIRC the court said there was nothing to prevent Bette Davis from going to work as waitress but she could not work as a an actress except under her existing contract with Warner Brothers.

My point is that the Russian team can seek injunctive relief in a court in North America. Will it be granted? That will be up to the court in the exercise of its equitable jusridiction. IMHO it is available as remedy based on past cases. IMHO the North american courts are the proper forum since both the player and the NHL team would be in that jurisdiction.

There is no enforcement of a foreign judgment involved as some have claimed since the action would be filed in the jurisdiction in which the NHL team operates and the player would be located.

There could be an action filed against the NHL team (and possibly the NHL itself if it registers the contract) for tortious interference with contractual relations.

That is my opinion, others may differ.

However based on the recent reports on the Malkin situation it appears that he and the Penguins are bowing to the inevitable - he is under contract and cannt simply come to Pittsburgh and play as some earlier suggested he could without a transfer beng paid. That has been my point from the beginning.
 

Mr Jiggyfly

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Jan 29, 2004
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SENATOR said:
What superpower status has anything to do with hockey? So let then NHL and the american superpower status to force russian hand in robing RSL from its young and exiting talent. Stop being selfish and spoiled. NHL is far from the best league in the world. It has third tier tv contract, no interest what so ever from USA market. NHL is just powered by a very little country of 31 million people-Canada. Without Canada, NHL would be somewhere in the beer bowling league status. Actually it is in many places in US, where it looked upon as the beer league where players fight. It is a very hard truth.

You do realize these young players will defect to the NHL if this continues.

Then Russia will not get a dime for them.
 

Lionel Hutz

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Wetcoaster is bang on in his analysis of Lumley v Wagner and the Betty Davis cases. But, I think it is easily distinguishable from a pro hockey player, especially a young prospect. It would be different if you were speaking of Gretzky or Lemieux in their prime. They were such unique players that their services could arguably be irreplaceable. Anything short of that opens the door for financial remedy.
 

Wetcoaster

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Lionel Hutz said:
Wetcoaster is bang on in his analysis of Lumley v Wagner and the Betty Davis cases. But, I think it is easily distinguishable from a pro hockey player, especially a young prospect. It would be different if you were speaking of Gretzky or Lemieux in their prime. They were such unique players that their services could arguably be irreplaceable. Anything short of that opens the door for financial remedy.
If you recall the position put out was that there was no way that the Russian team could make out a case. IMHO that is not correct. There will be an arguable case.

The US position on this is pretty much identical to the British and Canadian positions which is not surprising since we are all common law juridictions.

Contracts based on special or unique personal services, or in which a person holds a unique position, may be indirectly enforced by restraining the person from providing services to another. The cite for this is Volume 71, Section 165 of the American Jurisprudence, Second Edition, which states the following:
Contracts calling for personal services or acts of a special, unique, or extraordinary character, or by persons in eminence in their profession or calling who possess special and extraordinary qualifications, may be indirectly enforced by restraining the person employed from rendering services to another . . . .
71 Am.Jur.2d Specific Performance § 165, 213 (1973).

The question will be for the court is whether the... "personal services or acts of of a special, unique or extraordinary character..." to fit this situation. My argument would be a professional hockey player good enough to be in the top 750 players in the world and who was drafted highly would fit. YMMV.

In case involving lawyers and restrictive covenants the following was noted in the case of Smith, Waters, Kuehn, Burnett & Hughes, Ltd. v. Burnett, 192 Ill. App. 3d 693 (Ill. Ct. App. 1989):

In several cases from other jurisdictions, courts have held that an injunction will be granted to restrain violation of negative covenants in a personal service contract forbidding employees from working for any other employer during the term of the contract if the employee is an individual of exceptional and unique knowledge and ability in performing the services called for in the agreement. (Dallas Cowboys Football Club, Inc. v. Harris (Tex. Civ. App. 1961), 348 S.W.2d 37, 42; Winnipeg Rugby Football Club v. Freeman (N.D. Ohio 1955), 140 F. Supp. 365, 366-67; Associated Newspapers v. Phillips (2d Cir. 1923), 294 F. 845, 850; Philadelphia Ball Club, Ltd. v. Lajoie (1902), 202 Pa. 210, 212, 51 A. 973, 974.) In most American cases in which courts of review have held that employers were entitled to injunctive relief to restrain violations by former employees of such negative covenants in employment contracts, including three of the four above-cited cases, the former employees were athletes. (See, e.g., Munchak Corp. v. Cunningham (4th Cir. 1972), 457 F.2d 721; Washington Capitols Basketball Club, Inc. v. Barry (9th Cir. 1969), 419 F.2d 472; Houston Oilers, Inc. v. Neely (10th Cir. 1966), 361 F.2d 36; Nassau Sports v. Peters (E.D. N.Y. 1972), 352 F. Supp. 870; Matuszak v. Houston Oilers, Inc. (Tex. Civ. App. 1974), 515 S.W.2d 725; Central New York Basketball, Inc. v. Barnett (1961), 19 Ohio Op. 2d 130, 181 N.E.2d 506.) There are also some older cases involving entertainers in which similar relief was afforded. (See, e.g., Keith v. Kellermann (S.D. N.Y. 1909), 169 F. 196; McCaull v. Braham (S.D. N.Y. 1883), 16 F. 37.)

So my position is that such prohibitory injunctions are available and are more likely to be available in the case of professional athletes.
 
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Lionel Hutz

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In the top 750 in the world is not unique enough. If a competent player leaves, you can replace him with another competent player. Financial remedy for the breech of contract is enough to remedy, no need for equity. That is the way I see it. I would go to court with this twice on Sundays.
 

GSC2k2*

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Wetcoaster said:
If you recall the position put out was that there was no way that the Russian team could make out a case. IMHO that is not correct. There will be an arguable case.

The US position on this is pretty much identical to the British and Canadian positions which is not surprising since we are all common law juridictions.

Contracts based on special or unique personal services, or in which a person holds a unique position, may be indirectly enforced by restraining the person from providing services to another. The cite for this is Volume 71, Section 165 of the American Jurisprudence, Second Edition, which states the following:

71 Am.Jur.2d Specific Performance § 165, 213 (1973).

The question will be for the court is whether the... "personal services or acts of of a special, unique or extraordinary character..." to fit this situation. My argument would be a professional hockey player good enough to be in the top 750 players in the world and who was drafted highly would fit. YMMV.

In case involving lawyers and restrictive covenants the following was noted in the case of Smith, Waters, Kuehn, Burnett & Hughes, Ltd. v. Burnett, 192 Ill. App. 3d 693 (Ill. Ct. App. 1989):



So my position is that such prohibitory injunctions are available and are more likely to be available in the case of professional athletes.
Pathetic. Yet more posts arguing your own point and yet not a single word replyingt to my own deconstruction of your entire argument AND more importantly not a word in reply to the essential question I posted earlier.

An injunction will not be awarded if the matter is something for which damages would serve as an adequate remedy. THe parties have a history of transfer fees. The parties had negotiated that fee for this year, but have not succeeded. The Russian clubs by their own actions have acknowledged that money IS an adequate remedy.

And yet you continue to prattle on about Lumley and Davis. Get it through your head; this fact situation is distinguishable.
 

Wetcoaster

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gscarpenter2002 said:
Pathetic. Yet more posts arguing your own point and yet not a single word replyingt to my own deconstruction of your entire argument AND more importantly not a word in reply to the essential question I posted earlier.

An injunction will not be awarded if the matter is something for which damages would serve as an adequate remedy. THe parties have a history of transfer fees. The parties had negotiated that fee for this year, but have not succeeded. The Russian clubs by their own actions have acknowledged that money IS an adequate remedy.

And yet you continue to prattle on about Lumley and Davis. Get it through your head; this fact situation is distinguishable.
Fact situations are almost always distinguishable. However I gave you a series of cases involving athletes where injunctions were granted and a quote from the American Jurisprudence text. You choose to ignore them.

Okay you must have been correct because the Russian players just walked away from their RSL contracts and are playing in the NHL. :biglaugh:
 

SuperUnknown

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Wetcoaster said:
However based on the recent reports on the Malkin situation it appears that he and the Penguins are bowing to the inevitable - he is under contract and cannt simply come to Pittsburgh and play as some earlier suggested he could without a transfer beng paid. That has been my point from the beginning.

Everything points to Malkin coming next year though, even if he has a 3 year contract with his team.

As well, a big part of making that step is that the player will aleniate his fans in his own country (and his chances of playing there in the future), something the player might not want to do. Add the Russian mafia pressure (see Mogilny's case, where his family was a target).

Plus, the negative stipulations aren't enforced like they used to, and are in many cases considered abusive (at least in Canada) and not necessarily binding.
 

GSC2k2*

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Wetcoaster said:
Fact situations are almost always distinguishable. However I gave you a series of cases involving athletes where injunctions were granted and a quote from the American Jurisprudence text. You choose to ignore them.

First off, you clearly do not understand the concept of distinguishing caselaw. Fact situations are NOT "almost always distinguishable".

As for your proposed caselaw, I addressed them. They involve substantially different fact situations - most importantly, they ignore the fact that the former employer and new employer have been engaged in negotiations regarding the amount of money to be paid for that player.

Okay you must have been correct because the Russian players just walked away from their RSL contracts and are playing in the NHL. :biglaugh:
The truest admission yet that you are overmatched. You are suggesting that you are right since no Russian has yet signed a contract within the first TEN days after the Russians did not sign the IIHF/NHL agreement. I take this as either your version of a concession or a weak attempt to be a smart-a**. Rest assured, you would be outmatched in that as well.

Even putting aside the fact that we are TEN days into the process, we have of course always been speaking on the purely theoretical legal sides. If I am a player and I am being pressured by the Russian mafia types who run these teams, I am going to be a little more concerned about things other than injunctions or tortious interference, especially if I am leaving some of my family members in Russia.
 

SneakerPimp82

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gscarpenter2002 said:
The truest admission yet that you are overmatched. You are suggesting that you are right since no Russian has yet signed a contract within the first TEN days after the Russians did not sign the IIHF/NHL agreement. I take this as either your version of a concession or a weak attempt to be a smart-a**. Rest assured, you would be outmatched in that as well.

Even putting aside the fact that we are TEN days into the process, we have of course always been speaking on the purely theoretical legal sides. If I am a player and I am being pressured by the Russian mafia types who run these teams, I am going to be a little more concerned about things other than injunctions or tortious interference, especially if I am leaving some of my family members in Russia.

He's dodged the issue 4 or 5 times over, just let him be. Fact is the two entities have an established relationship of transfer fees being used as proper compensation for players, there is no way that the Russians will be awarded an injunction in this matter.
 

Wetcoaster

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gscarpenter2002 said:
Even putting aside the fact that we are TEN days into the process, we have of course always been speaking on the purely theoretical legal sides. If I am a player and I am being pressured by the Russian mafia types who run these teams, I am going to be a little more concerned about things other than injunctions or tortious interference, especially if I am leaving some of my family members in Russia.
Hilarious.

So now it is a conspiracy and shadowy mobsters with the Russian mafia and not a easliy avoided Russian contract that is responsible. :shakehead

(Cue music)
http://frogstar.com/wav/displaywav.asp?fil=x-filess.wav

Or perhaps something more classic:
http://frogstar.com/wav/displaywav.asp?fil=twilzone.wav
 

Egil

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I'm pretty sure the NHL told Ottawa to hold off doing anything while they continue to have discussions with the Russians, or prepare the legal case for bringing the player over. Muckler called it "a holding patern". I would wait until training camp has started to be so confident that nobody will sign.
 

Jaded-Fan

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gscarpenter2002 said:
The truest admission yet that you are overmatched. You are suggesting that you are right since no Russian has yet signed a contract within the first TEN days after the Russians did not sign the IIHF/NHL agreement. I take this as either your version of a concession or a weak attempt to be a smart-a**. Rest assured, you would be outmatched in that as well.

Even putting aside the fact that we are TEN days into the process, we have of course always been speaking on the purely theoretical legal sides. If I am a player and I am being pressured by the Russian mafia types who run these teams, I am going to be a little more concerned about things other than injunctions or tortious interference, especially if I am leaving some of my family members in Russia.


.............. and yet he goes board to board spinning the same things and hoping that none read this thread. From the Pen's board, Wetcoaster regarding Malkin:

He will if:

The Pens pay a transfer fee to the Ruusian team or

If the Russians sign the IIHF agreement

Otherwise 2008 when his contract expires.


and

Contrary to what I was being told over and over was going to happen, Malkin is NOT here in North America.

That is because he is under contract and has no out clause or out under an IIHF agreement. Seems I was correct all along.


http://www.hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=166438



and as a ps, Malkin is not here by choice this year, not by that 'contract' that he signed. His own GM and everyone who is actually involved in this situation on both sides (His team's GM, Pens, his agent, Malkin himself) have acknowleged as much.
 

Wetcoaster

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Jaded-Fan said:
.............. and yet he goes board to board spinning the same things and hoping that none read this thread. From the Pen's board, Wetcoaster regarding Malkin:

He will if:

The Pens pay a transfer fee to the Ruusian team or

If the Russians sign the IIHF agreement

Otherwise 2008 when his contract expires.


and

Contrary to what I was being told over and over was going to happen, Malkin is NOT here in North America.

That is because he is under contract and has no out clause or out under an IIHF agreement. Seems I was correct all along.


http://www.hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=166438



and as a ps, Malkin is not here by choice this year, not by that 'contract' that he signed. His own GM and everyone who is actually involved in this situation on both sides (His team's GM, Pens, his agent, Malkin himself) have acknowleged as much.
RIGGGGGGGGHHHHT. And I have a lovely bridge I would like to sell you.

And next year Malkin wil be here if:

1. the Russians sign the NHL/IIHF agreement, or

2. the Penguins pay his team the transfer fee

That seemed crystal clear from his agent's comments.
 

GSC2k2*

Guest
Wetcoaster said:
Hilarious.

So now it is a conspiracy and shadowy mobsters with the Russian mafia and not a easliy avoided Russian contract that is responsible. :shakehead

(Cue music)
http://frogstar.com/wav/displaywav.asp?fil=x-filess.wav

Or perhaps something more classic:
http://frogstar.com/wav/displaywav.asp?fil=twilzone.wav
Perhaps you should take a closer look at your post above and see where your logic does not come together ...

In other news, go ask Alex Mogilny about the "conspiracy".

Apparently you are oblivious to having been trounced.
 

Wetcoaster

Guest
gscarpenter2002 said:
Perhaps you should take a closer look at your post above and see where your logic does not come together ...

In other news, go ask Alex Mogilny about the "conspiracy".

Apparently you are oblivious to having been trounced.
Check a mirror and read the last sentence you posted.

I note Malkin is not in North America nor is Kaigorodov.

Nothing to do with the mafia - just a little probelm with existing valid contracts.
 

Vladiator

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kdb209 said:
The fact is, the NHL generates more revenue than any hockey league in the world, and as a result can pay the highest salaries of any league in the world, so it attracts the top players in the world.

Your bitterness is making you seem mis-informed (to be charitable).

Remind me again why wasn't there a NHL season last year?
 
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donelikedinner

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lets make this a simple yes or no question:

if a russian player fufills his contract with his RSL team (no longer obligated to meet any contractual obligations), can he play in the NHL without the RSL/team recieving $$?

please spare the lawyer mumbojumbo, yes or no?

i'll say yes as someone has to represent common sense (not generally eveident in law to the layman anymore)
 

Wetcoaster

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donelikedinner said:
lets make this a simple yes or no question:

if a russian player fufills his contract with his RSL team (no longer obligated to meet any contractual obligations), can he play in the NHL without the RSL/team recieving $$?

please spare the lawyer mumbojumbo, yes or no?

i'll say yes as someone has to represent common sense (not generally eveident in law to the layman anymore)
Yes.

However if the Russians sign the NHL/IIHF agreement then money would be owed whether or not there is an existing contract. The agreement also provides a "window" each year with an out clause for players still under contract to the European team.
 

kdb209

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Jan 26, 2005
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Vladiator said:
Originally Posted by kdb209
The fact is, the NHL generates more revenue than any hockey league in the world, and as a result can pay the highest salaries of any league in the world, so it attracts the top players in the world.

Your bitterness is making you seem mis-informed (to be charitable).
Remind me again why wasn't there a NHL season last year?

Very simple - Those highest salaries grew at a faster rate than those highest revenues, producing an economically untenable system.

But, that has nothing to do with whether the NHL is "the best league in the world", generates more revenues than any other league in the world, or pays higher salaries than any other league - points that the original poster had disputed.
 
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