Sportsnet: JVR has net positive NHL metrics

[ACC1224]

Haven't you heard? Leivo replaces him easily according to many posters on here!

I wouldn't trade JvR unless he's part of a package that gets us a true #1 D. Nothing less. JMHO.

That's not even remotely realistic

 

[MR4]

Sure, might be net positive. But think Leivo's impact would be more

 

[wingman75]

I thought JVR looked pretty good out there without Bozak. I thought Bozak was good on the 4th line too, generally speaking.

Not sure why Babs feels they must play together. They are actually better with other players, especially JVR.

 

[glue]

JVR had a solid game I thought, defensively as well. I agree with people suggesting he should be separated from Bozak. Bozak had a solid game too

 

[mapleleaf979]

JVR plays when he wants. He isnt moved to the 4th line to keep his trade value/stats high as possible. Why would any GM give up a Top 4 D for this guy. He is a perfect candidate to check out after next contract. Guy plays the game to never get a scratch on himself.

 

[nonikhanna]

From what it looks like, JVR and Bozak can't carry a line. They aren't great puck movers. When Marner was playing great that line seemed a threat, but now it looked very vulnerable and other teams picked it apart. Splitting up them both up is better so we don't have 2 defensive black holes on the same line.
Honestly, force JVR to play in a shutdown role on Kadri's line. light a fire under him! All lines should try to contain the other team's lines. Think of JVR on Kadri's line as a conditioning stint to force him to backcheck. Its still the regular season, we can try these things out now before the playoffs

 

[ACC1224]

JVR had a solid game I thought, defensively as well. I agree with people suggesting he should be separated from Bozak. Bozak had a solid game too

He has been better lately. That penalty last night was classic JVR though, MOVE YOUR FEET.

 

[thewave]

He has been better lately. That penalty last night was classic JVR though, MOVE YOUR FEET.

Lazy C breeds Lazy wingers. Bozak is a coaster and opportunist and it's hard to generate momentum when a C is like that. Last night Kadri was coasting for the first two periods and Leivo looked terrible, probably got a yelling after the second inter but played much more reasonable in the third. This applies to all C, Ben Smith included.

 

[moon111]

The problem with that is we have very little centre depth in the organization.

It would be a major help if Marleau works down the middle. Then you don't have to rely on breaking up Matthews and Nylander. I know a lot of people are bullish on Nylander as a centre, but he's a second year NHLer who has never played centre in the NHL. It's tough to break up a dynamite line to potentially put one of the players in a bad position. If Marleau works, it's much easier to trade Bozak, or just let him ride out his deal on the fourth line. Gives us even better depth.

As for Pitt as a landing spot for Bozak, I think they're right to the cap. Don't know who they would send back that we would want.

Pittsburgh will send Hunwick for Bozak, but only if Toronto retains $2,000,000.

 

[meefer]

JVR is not a great hockey player.

JVR is a first line quality player in the offensive zone. During the past five years for forwards JVR ranks 29th in goal scoring, 51st in total points and 52nd PPG overall in the NHL (Quanthockey). JVR has never played with a top line C during the last 5 years. He has played with a great O zone RW in Kessel and has for the most part enjoyed the same creativity when Marner was his RWer. Bozak, as JVR's primary C tops out as a 2nd line C in the O zone.

JVR is not a great player in the D zone. During the last five years his cumulative +/- (admittedly not the greatest stat) places him 910th (behind Kessel at 867th but ahead of Bozak at 920th) on the list of 928 forwards who have played since the 2013/14 season (Quanthockey). Obviously, some of the Leaf teams he played on were not good teams, did not have good coaching/goaltending/defense, but his obvious laziness/inability to engage in the D zone does not need statistical breakdown to be understood.

I think there is merit to the comments that suggest his value to the team has been hurt by pairing him with Bozak. There is also merit to the idea that placing him with a more complete C, one more defensively engaged, would help shield JVR, and thus the team, from some of his deficiencies. This will not, however, elevate his status to that of a 'Great' player. He was and is a complementary scoring winger, a very good one, with strong liabilities in the defensive zone. I struggle to understand why he is so defensively porous. When playing with Bozak and Kessel I'll offer a bit more leniency as they were facing the other's top lines or shutdown lines. However, under Babcock's time his minutes have been more sheltered. He has size, decent skating abilities, he knows how to position his stick and use his body to protect his position in the O zone and I would think these qualities could be translated to D responsibilities, yet he has consistently failed to commit to defensively responsible hockey. I can only surmise that he doesn't care about those responsibilities. The efforts are just not there. As this team moves forward, I do not want that type of player on the team. The mantra of management has stressed player accountability, JVR, Imo, does not meet that requirement and sets a negative influence for the younger players. Trade him.

 

[Trapper]

The parallel to Kulemin is an odd hyperbole to use. Real odd. I understand the point but the two situations aren't comparable at all.

As a Leaf, JVR has never scored at less than a 27 goal pace. His first season as a Leaf was the lockout shortened season where he put up 18 goals for a 30 goal pace. Then scored 30, then 27, then 14 in 40 (which is just over a 28 goal pace) and then 29 last year. In terms of consistency, that's pretty damn consistent, and you're splitting hairs at not calling him a 30 goal guy. A guy under 30 scoring for a MINIMUM 27 goal pace is a 30 goal for all intents and purposes. His lowest point pace has been 55 (his first season with the Leafs) since joining the Leafs. And he's hit 60 twice. For all intents and purposes, he's a 60 point winger.

Bozak is also for all intents and purposes, a 50 point center. His career point pace is for a pace of 50 points over 500 games. That alone gives him a strong argument for being a 50 point center. He's also hit 47 points once, 49 twice, and 55 last year. His third seasons he paced 50 points in the lockout season (28 point in 46 games being good for a pace 49.9 points), and then did it again in an injury shortened season in 2015-2016 with 35 points in 57 games. He's paced for a MINIMUM of 47 points in every season but his rookie season. And he's paced for a MINIMUM of 49 points in every season since his sophomore season. That is a 50 point center.

JVR and Bozak get such little respect from some Leaf fans its ridiculous. They're both good players. JVR is a 60 point player and Bozak is a 50 point center

What's the dollar value of a 60 point player and 50 point center?
What's the trade value of each player?
What's the value of both players leaving UFA?

 

[A1LeafNation]

Ideally we have the forwards for a playoff run..

Hyman Matthews Nylander
JVR Marleau Marner
Komarov Kadri Brown
Martin Bozak Kapanen
Soshnikov Moore Leivo
Johnson Aaltonen Fehr
Gauthier

 

[gabeliscious]

I thought JVR looked pretty good out there without Bozak. I thought Bozak was good on the 4th line too, generally speaking.

Not sure why Babs feels they must play together. They are actually better with other players, especially JVR.

bozak on the 4th line seems like a waste but for arguments sake lets say he could play out the season there and be a big upgrade over moore. we still have the issue of missing a 2nd or 3rd line center. im not sure marleau wants to/ is able to play center on a long term basis.

if babs would consider moving nylander to center we could try something like;

hyman-matthews-marner (try to get marner going)
jvr-nylander-brown (brown+ nylander should be able to cover for jvr defensively)
marleau-kadri-komorov
martin-bozak-leivo (leivo + bozak should be able to do well against other teams bottom lines)
moore

 

[Griffin76]

Ideally we have the forwards for a playoff run..

Hyman Matthews Nylander
JVR Marleau Marner
Komarov Kadri Brown
Martin Bozak Kapanen
Soshnikov Moore Leivo
Johnson Aaltonen Fehr
Gauthier

I could certainly get behind this as our 4 lines for sure but personally I would shuffle all 4 RW. I would go
Kapanen - he's not Nylander but he's got lots of speed and skill and I really don't think Matthews needs Nylander
Nylander - get him doing some C duties playing with Marleau and easily transition to the C position
Marner - might benefit from being on a D-first kinda line
Brown - give him a regular 4th line shift with lots of PP and PK time with the chance to move up should others falter

 

[PromisedLand]

JVR is not a great hockey player.

JVR is a first line quality player in the offensive zone. During the past five years for forwards JVR ranks 29th in goal scoring, 51st in total points and 52nd PPG overall in the NHL (Quanthockey). JVR has never played with a top line C during the last 5 years. He has played with a great O zone RW in Kessel and has for the most part enjoyed the same creativity when Marner was his RWer. Bozak, as JVR's primary C tops out as a 2nd line C in the O zone.

JVR is not a great player in the D zone. During the last five years his cumulative +/- (admittedly not the greatest stat) places him 910th (behind Kessel at 867th but ahead of Bozak at 920th) on the list of 928 forwards who have played since the 2013/14 season (Quanthockey). Obviously, some of the Leaf teams he played on were not good teams, did not have good coaching/goaltending/defense, but his obvious laziness/inability to engage in the D zone does not need statistical breakdown to be understood.

I think there is merit to the comments that suggest his value to the team has been hurt by pairing him with Bozak. There is also merit to the idea that placing him with a more complete C, one more defensively engaged, would help shield JVR, and thus the team, from some of his deficiencies. This will not, however, elevate his status to that of a 'Great' player. He was and is a complementary scoring winger, a very good one, with strong liabilities in the defensive zone. I struggle to understand why he is so defensively porous. When playing with Bozak and Kessel I'll offer a bit more leniency as they were facing the other's top lines or shutdown lines. However, under Babcock's time his minutes have been more sheltered. He has size, decent skating abilities, he knows how to position his stick and use his body to protect his position in the O zone and I would think these qualities could be translated to D responsibilities, yet he has consistently failed to commit to defensively responsible hockey. I can only surmise that he doesn't care about those responsibilities. The efforts are just not there. As this team moves forward, I do not want that type of player on the team. The mantra of management has stressed player accountability, JVR, Imo, does not meet that requirement and sets a negative influence for the younger players. Trade him.

JVR's stats analysis in the article is flawed. There is no QoC component, zone starts, zone entries, zone exits, shooting area, primary points, etc...

Unless that article was written in hope of fooling other team's GMs into thinking that JVR is good lets get this guy; the article is worthy.

Any good statistical analysis should also contain information on "Limitations" and conduct a compete analysis not hand picked ones.

 

[Raym11]

net positive metrics don't mean much when you have eyes

 

[Michel Beauchamp]

pretty good article.
Shows the stats on his defence aren't counting out his great offence.

https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/...ronto-maple-leafs-analysis-maple-leafs-roster

Just goes to show that the shiny new toy sometimes mis-named "advanced metrics" really is the Emperor's New Clothes.

 

[thewave]

JVR was awesome and is awesome. You all just don't know what you are seeing, GM's know he is great.

 

[blueberrie]

Was hoping he'd be moved during the offseason. Yes it's true it's hard to replace a ~30g 60p guy, but it's not like JVR drives play like that. He's got great hands around the net but it's not like he's an insane threat with the puck on his stick.

That being said I think he'd be pretty good with Matthews. Matthews thrives on generating scoring chances around the blue paint and JVR is money on the edge of the crease.

 

[Pookie]

This is a fanbase that rejoiced getting Dan Boyle who .... all the best to him ... is no longer in the NHL.

Draft picks were inconsequential apparently.

And here we are... with our own "Rentals" and we want to give them up for anything?

Some of you may have the face the fact that Lou may see these UFA players (Komarov and Polak included) as this year's rental. Opportunity cost of not moving them is the same draft pick we would have to give up to get someone else.

Be consistent.

 

[Northernguy10]

JVR is not a great hockey player.

JVR is a first line quality player in the offensive zone. During the past five years for forwards JVR ranks 29th in goal scoring, 51st in total points and 52nd PPG overall in the NHL (Quanthockey). JVR has never played with a top line C during the last 5 years. He has played with a great O zone RW in Kessel and has for the most part enjoyed the same creativity when Marner was his RWer. Bozak, as JVR's primary C tops out as a 2nd line C in the O zone.

JVR is not a great player in the D zone. During the last five years his cumulative +/- (admittedly not the greatest stat) places him 910th (behind Kessel at 867th but ahead of Bozak at 920th) on the list of 928 forwards who have played since the 2013/14 season (Quanthockey). Obviously, some of the Leaf teams he played on were not good teams, did not have good coaching/goaltending/defense, but his obvious laziness/inability to engage in the D zone does not need statistical breakdown to be understood.

I think there is merit to the comments that suggest his value to the team has been hurt by pairing him with Bozak. There is also merit to the idea that placing him with a more complete C, one more defensively engaged, would help shield JVR, and thus the team, from some of his deficiencies. This will not, however, elevate his status to that of a 'Great' player. He was and is a complementary scoring winger, a very good one, with strong liabilities in the defensive zone. I struggle to understand why he is so defensively porous. When playing with Bozak and Kessel I'll offer a bit more leniency as they were facing the other's top lines or shutdown lines. However, under Babcock's time his minutes have been more sheltered. He has size, decent skating abilities, he knows how to position his stick and use his body to protect his position in the O zone and I would think these qualities could be translated to D responsibilities, yet he has consistently failed to commit to defensively responsible hockey. I can only surmise that he doesn't care about those responsibilities. The efforts are just not there. As this team moves forward, I do not want that type of player on the team. The mantra of management has stressed player accountability, JVR, Imo, does not meet that requirement and sets a negative influence for the younger players. Trade him.