Just a casual John Tavares conversation

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thewave

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Jun 17, 2011
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Late in on this. We could take T on but would have to make sure we trade JVR and Bozak right away. Not really a big deal. Nylander would have to remain a winger though going forward. On the bright side he has the natural ability to make JT great from the wing so would make a natural linemate. You could argue Nylander on the wing is a waste. I wouldn't trade Kadri though because his price for performance is a steal.
 

phillipmike

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Oct 27, 2009
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OK, figured you must be doing something like this. Not sure if a team can save $900k if they bury a player with a contract that pays the player less than $900k?

I was focused on the RFAs and UFAs so "moving players" is not particularly relevant here. Given that they have two UFA defenders in the summer of 2017, they will have to do something. I'd guess their budget for these 2 defenders will be about $3 million or maybe a smidgeon over. The two UFAs have modest contracts that pay over $3m in total now, so they have some challenges for sure. Chicago will have a good team in the 2017-18 season no doubt. Hard to say and time will tell if its Stanley Cup type strong though given these challenges.

That is right they can only save the amount of the contract up to 900k. If someone is making 500k and they send him down then they get that space back. But if someone if making 4 million and they send him down then only 900k comes off the books and 3.1 million is still being charged. 3.6m of Laich's 4.5m , 3m of Michalek's 4m and 1.7 of Greening's 2.6 are still on the books - we only got roughly 2.7m of relief (900k X 3).

They will have to do something and that will likely be moving Kruger's 3M. If they move Kruger then they would have 8M to find 5 forwards, 3 defense and 1 goalie. They can do that no problem - already have players in the system and can do bargain shopping with free agents. Anisimov's 4.5M can be moved too as i just realized he has a modified NTC.

Chicago won three cups so me comparing their current situation to a potential Leafs situation in 2018 may have been misguided but if the Leafs sign Tavares in 2018 their situation will look no different than Chicago's in 2010 when they were in a similar cap crunch.
 

Menzinger

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It will be curious to see what management does if he doesn't in fact hit free agency. Do they take a gamble they could win a cup in the next couple seasons and then just try to deal with the cap fiasco as it comes back to bite them?

I'd expect they at the very least make him a courtesy offer like they did with Stamkos but that he chases the money elsewhere. I can see him leaving NY unless they really turn things around though.
 

phillipmike

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Late in on this. We could take T on but would have to make sure we trade JVR and Bozak right away. Not really a big deal. Nylander would have to remain a winger though going forward. On the bright side he has the natural ability to make JT great from the wing so would make a natural linemate. You could argue Nylander on the wing is a waste. I wouldn't trade Kadri though because his price for performance is a steal.

JVR and Bozak's deals expire a month before Tavares becomes a free agent so trading them for cap space isnt needed but i would look at deals to trade them for picks or other areas of need.
 

The CyNick

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Late in on this. We could take T on but would have to make sure we trade JVR and Bozak right away. Not really a big deal. Nylander would have to remain a winger though going forward. On the bright side he has the natural ability to make JT great from the wing so would make a natural linemate. You could argue Nylander on the wing is a waste. I wouldn't trade Kadri though because his price for performance is a steal.

You'll have to trade him when his deal is up, along with likely two of Rielly, Gardiner, and Andersen when their deals are up. You're also rolling with 13 of 23 guys at less than $1M. Hope the farm keeps producing!
 

HoweHullOrr

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Oct 3, 2013
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I gave reasons for and against it. You don't have to write one sentence and be an ass about it.

Assuming that Karlsson did decide to move out of the city where he's played his entire career, would it not be possible that he would look at the other 29 cities to see what they have to offer?

I understand we are proud of our city, but some Torontonians move out of Toronto and don't return, and others not born/raised here don't always see Toronto as the ultimate, #1 destination. Taking that point even further, assuming that every player even wants to come here seems a little stretched & counter-intuitive to me.
 

thewave

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Jun 17, 2011
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It will be curious to see what management does if he doesn't in fact hit free agency. Do they take a gamble they could win a cup in the next couple seasons and then just try to deal with the cap fiasco as it comes back to bite them?

I'd expect they at the very least make him a courtesy offer like they did with Stamkos but that he chases the money elsewhere. I can see him leaving NY unless they really turn things around though.

Why not? They get a pretty good return from Bozak and JVR in the summer and run with it. Its worth the shot. The proceeds net you a top 4D with extra assets in the bank and you pretty much contend from there on out.
 

one77

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Dec 22, 2013
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Kapanen - Matthews - Nylander
Leivo - Tavares - Marner
Komarov - Kadri - Brown
Martin - Boyle - Hyman
-Soshnikov/Leipsic/Rychel/Gauthier/Brooks/Grundstrom

Lol
 

ACC1224

Super Elite, Passing ALL Tests since 2002
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It will be curious to see what management does if he doesn't in fact hit free agency. Do they take a gamble they could win a cup in the next couple seasons and then just try to deal with the cap fiasco as it comes back to bite them?

I'd expect they at the very least make him a courtesy offer like they did with Stamkos but that he chases the money elsewhere. I can see him leaving NY unless they really turn things around though.

With or without Tavares they would for sure be looking at being contenders during that time frame.
 

thewave

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Jun 17, 2011
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You'll have to trade him when his deal is up, along with likely two of Rielly, Gardiner, and Andersen when their deals are up. You're also rolling with 13 of 23 guys at less than $1M. Hope the farm keeps producing!

Yeah there are a lot of considerations for sure. Its a win the cup within a few seasons kind of move. The Rangers manage to juggle this kind of thing and remain competitive though. I don't really care either way but trading JVR + Bozak cap for JT cap makes sense up until we start considering term, but! He is getting signed so don't worry, he'll be a NYI for some time yet.
 

The CyNick

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Assuming that Karlsson did decide to move out of the city where he's played his entire career, would it not be possible that he would look at the other 29 cities to see what they have to offer?

I understand we are proud of our city, but some Torontonians move out of Toronto and don't return, and others not born/raised here don't always see Toronto as the ultimate, #1 destination. Taking that point even further, assuming that every player even wants to come here seems a little stretched & counter-intuitive to me.

I don't think you understand.

All teams run trades by us before dealing with other teams to ensure we don't need the player they are trying to trade. They are willing to take less in return just for the honour of trading with us and getting our C level prospects.

Second, free agents are clamouring to come here due to the lucrative promotional opportunities (Russell Oliver pays big bucks) the prestige of wearing a sweater that has been a laughing stock for decades, and honour of paying massive taxes. Free agents don't even consider other teams for these reasons.
 

thewave

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Jun 17, 2011
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JVR and Bozak's deals expire a month before Tavares becomes a free agent so trading them for cap space isnt needed but i would look at deals to trade them for picks or other areas of need.

Ah right, good stuff it makes it easier but also probably changes the entire strategy regarding targeting him. Makes even less sense, but again, he is getting signed by NYI who's kidding who.
 

The CyNick

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Yeah there are a lot of considerations for sure. Its a win the cup within a few seasons kind of move. The Rangers manage to juggle this kind of thing and remain competitive though. I don't really care either way but trading JVR + Bozak cap for JT cap makes sense up until we start considering term, but! He is getting signed so don't worry, he'll be a NYI for some time yet.

Yeah I don't even think we're on his radar, but I also don't think he's on our radar. I think it's just fans who can't add that think it makes sense to persue him. When we went after Stamkos, we didn't know what we had with MNM. Now we have a better idea, and they are likely better than anyone could have hoped for. I know I would have laughed at the idea of all three producing this much this soon. Now, if the gamelan is sign JT, then trade Marner or Nylander for D help, that's a different story. But again, I don't think he wants to come here, and I would rather roll with what we built internally.
 

HoweHullOrr

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They will have to do something and that will likely be moving Kruger's 3M. If they move Kruger then they would have 8M to find 5 forwards, 3 defense and 1 goalie. They can do that no problem - already have players in the system and can do bargain shopping with free agents. Anisimov's 4.5M can be moved too as i just realized he has a modified NTC.

I think you have underrated Anisimov here. Bowman said that they had coveted Anisimov the year before they actually acquired him.

I also think that "moving Kruger" could entail some additional moves (trading more futures) that will ultimately have some negative implications in the future.

Added to this is the point I previously made that it isn't easy to acquire quality defenders at budget prices.

I think the Chicago and Pittsburgh situation is harder to duplicate now (i.e. for a team like the Leafs) given the rules of the current CBA. You'd have to adjust Crosby's and Hossa's AAV's with a delta of several million dollars to align it to current CBA rules and market conditions.

It's an interesting debate. Management will definitely need to think long and hard about rolling the dice on JT given his contract amount and duration.
 

Menzinger

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Apr 24, 2014
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With or without Tavares they would for sure be looking at being contenders during that time frame.

I agree - but the gamble is if you bring in Tavares at a high cap hit you constrain yourself from other options. Other issue is, does management prefer to focus just on being contenders or to contend and face a sustainable cap situation long term.
 

Rick74*

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Oct 7, 2016
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LOL. Were Mike Bossy and Denis Potvin forgotten? This is thinking in isolation and without a larger view of the world (& people).

Those guys won a stanley cup...something John will not be doing for the Islanders...and still Gilmore and Clark likely sold more sweaters and are more recognizable than either of those two nation wide.

You can't compare the demographics of Leaf fans to Islander fans...there's just no contest. Hockey is a Canadian sport and sorry to say this but since everywhere the Leafs go within Canada, 40% of the crowd are usually Leaf fans.

Clark is the city's love child and Gilmore only played here for a few seasons and he too have the keys to Toronto. And neither needed to even win a cup to do it.

It is what it is.

You wanna be a god? Win in Toronto. You want to be forgotten? Go win somewhere else. Especially in the States where Hockey is the 4th most popular sport.

If the Islanders never achieve any kind of moderate success, Taveres will be all but forgotten the moment he retires.
 
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phillipmike

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You keep reaching with those Chicago comparisons. Meanwhile they got lucky first of all drafting an anchor on D in Keith and then signing him to a long term sweetheart deal, and also getting Hossa under circumstances that no longer exist in the current world. On top of all that they had Kane and Toews locked up at just over 6M when current landscape dictates that the Leafs will need to sign their big three to anywhere between 7.5 and maybe even 10M. That's a lot of stuff that went in Chicago's favour that won't go in our favour.

Don't know where you get the info that Kadri plays against other teams 3rd lines. I guess McDavid is on the Oilers third line. Didn't realize they were that deep!

My favorite thing is you're worried about paying some guys in their late 20s and early 30s, but you're cool with JT in his late 20s at top dollar and putting us in call hell.

Like i said those contracts dont exist but Chicago will pay one way or another; whether it would be when Keith is 39 or Hossa is 42 or the retire and they get hit with the recapture penalty. The penalties will come one way or another.

Chicago dipped in big on the FA market when they spent 21% (12.4M) of their cap on Campbell and Hossa. Campbell stayed for 3 seasons (1 over lap year of Kane and Toews' 6.3M deals) and then Chicago had to move him for Olesz who was taking up 1.7M of their cap for another 3 years - Campbell only won one cup with them. So Hossa and Olesz cost them 7M (12% of their cap in 2010, 11% in 2011 and 12% in 2012). Tavares at 10.5 on a 75M cap will cost 14% a price i would pay for an elite centre. Chicago paid 21% of their cap for a top line winger and a top pairing D for 3 years then because of those moves it cost them 11-12% for just Hossa and the dead money in Olesz from the Campbell deal. Ill take the elite centre at 14% as he is much more valuable.

6.3M in 2010 out of a 59M dollar cap is 11%.

7.5M in 2019 out of 75M dollar cap is 10%
10M in 2019 out of a 75M dollar cap is 13%.

Its a difference but not that big and in some cases its less. Marner and Nylander's deals will be less than Kane and Toews when you look at cap percentages. Matthews will be the only one that might be more.

Again difference of a opinion. You think it will be cap hell, i think it is a situation 29 other teams would love to have - a lot of talent to fit under your cap.

Chicken or the egg. You are ok bypassing a premium free agent to predict what a 31 year old 3rd line centre and a 32 year old goalie will be in 4 years. I am absolutely cool with signing one of the best centres in the league for his aged 28-34 seasons at 14% of my cap - that number gets small when the cap goes up.
 
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HoweHullOrr

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Oct 3, 2013
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Those guys won a stanley cup...something John will not be doing for the Islanders...and still Gilmore and Clark likely sold more sweaters and are more recognizable than either of those two nation wide.

You can't compare the demographics of Leaf fans to Islander fans...there's just no contest. Hockey is a Canadian sport and sorry to say this but since everywhere the Leafs go within Canada, 40% of the crowd are usually Leaf fans.

Clark is the city's love child and Gilmore only played here for a few seasons and he too have the keys to Toronto. And neither needed to even win a cup to do it.

It is what it is.

You wanna be a god? Win in Toronto. You want to be forgotten? Go win somewhere else. Especially in the States where Hockey is the 4th most popular sport.

If the Islanders never achieve any kind of moderate success, Taveres will be all but forgotten the moment he retires.

Then there are players like Gretzky, Orr, Lemieux and Crosby who seem have done OK despite being located outside of Toronto. I think you are reaching, but suffice to say everyone is entitled to their opinion. I'm moving on.
 

phillipmike

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Oct 27, 2009
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I think you have underrated Anisimov here. Bowman said that they had coveted Anisimov the year before they actually acquired him.

I also think that "moving Kruger" could entail some additional moves (trading more futures) that will ultimately have some negative implications in the future.

Added to this is the point I previously made that it isn't easy to acquire quality defenders at budget prices.

I think the Chicago and Pittsburgh situation is harder to duplicate now (i.e. for a team like the Leafs) given the rules of the current CBA. You'd have to adjust Crosby's and Hossa's AAV's with a delta of several million dollars to align it to current CBA rules and market conditions.

It's an interesting debate. Management will definitely need to think long and hard about rolling the dice on JT given his contract amount and duration.

I am not saying he is a bad player rather that they might want more cap space to work with. Buff, Bolland, Versteeg, Sharp, Campbell etc. arent bad players far from it - just casualties of the cap.
 

Daisy Jane

everything is gonna be okay!
Jul 2, 2009
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Then there are players like Gretzky, Orr, Lemieux and Crosby who seem have done OK despite being located outside of Toronto. I think you are reaching, but suffice to say everyone is entitled to their opinion. I'm moving on.

....because theyve won and are legends.
so basically I'm assuming that Tavares isn't really legendary - and if he doesn't win he'lll just be that guy.
 

The CyNick

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Those guys won a stanley cup...something John will not be doing for the Islanders...and still Gilmore and Clark likely sold more sweaters and are more recognizable than either of those two nation wide.

You can't compare the demographics of Leaf fans to Islander fans...there's just no contest. Hockey is a Canadian sport and sorry to say this but since everywhere the Leafs go within Canada, 40% of the crowd are usually Leaf fans.

Clark is the city's love child and Gilmore only played here for a few seasons and he too have the keys to Toronto. And neither needed to even win a cup to do it.

It is what it is.

You wanna be a god? Win in Toronto. You want to be forgotten? Go win somewhere else. Especially in the States where Hockey is the 4th most popular sport.

If the Islanders never achieve any kind of moderate success, Taveres will be all but forgotten the moment he retires.

Dougie would trade the keys to the city for people spelling his name right. Maybe isles fans have an easier time with their legends because they can see their heroes names on the Cup.
 

The CyNick

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Like i said those contracts dont exist but Chicago will pay one why or another; whether it would be when Keith is 39 or Hossa is 42 or the retire and they get hit with the recapture penalty. The penalties will come one way or another.

Chicago dipped in big on the FA market when they spent 21% (12.4M) of their cap on Campbell and Hossa. Campbell stayed for 3 seasons (1 over lap year of Kane and Toews' 6.3M deals) and then Chicago had to move him for Olesz who was taking up 1.7M of their cap for another 3 years - Campbell only won one cup with them. So Hossa and Olesz cost them 7M (12% of their cap in 2010, 11% in 2011 and 12% in 2012). Tavares at 10.5 on a 75M cap will cost 14% a price i would pay for an elite centre. Chicago paid 21% of their cap for a top line winger and a top pairing D for 3 years then because of those moves it cost them 11-12% for just Hossa and the dead money in Olesz from the Campbell deal. Ill take the elite centre at 14% as he is much more valuable.

6.3M in 2010 out of a 59M dollar cap is 11%.

7.5M in 2019 out of 75M dollar cap is 10%
10M in 2019 out of a 75M dollar cap is 13%.

Its a difference but not that big and in some cases its less. Marner and Nylander's deals will be less than Kane and Toews when you look at cap percentages. Matthews will be the only one that might be more.

Again difference of a opinion. You think it will be cap hell, i think it is a situation 29 other teams would love to have - a lot of talent to fit under your cap.

Chicken or the egg. You are ok bypassing a premium free agent to predict what a 31 year old 3rd line centre and a 32 year old goalie will be in 4 years. I am absolutely cool with signing one of the best centres in the league for his aged 28-34 seasons at 14% of my cap - that number gets small when the cap goes up.

First, it's not bypassing anyone. My position is Tavares isn't even considering us as an option, but okay let's play make believe that he's interested in coming here.

My position has nothing to do with the specific second tier of players we currently have (Rielly, Gardiner, Kadri, Andersen, etc), it's the fact that we don't have an elite D as part of our core like Chicago did/does. Tavares at his advanced age will duplicate a strength we already have and do so for at minimum 14% of our cap. When you look at where the Hawks were whilst winning Cups, they had roughly 50% of their cap on 5 key players; 1 C, 2W, and 2D. The Leafs with Tavares would use roughly 50% on four forwards and 0 D. I don't think that's an effective use of your cap especially when the biggest ticket of the four will be initially signed in the years many studies suggest he will begin to decline. If we have three stud D that are primed to break through after Tavares signs, then I think your plan is solid. I pay pretty close attention to our system, we have no such thing. So we're going to have to work with the guys we have if we're going to win. With Tavares, we can't keep those guys.
 

Rick74*

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Oct 7, 2016
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Dougie would trade the keys to the city for people spelling his name right. Maybe isles fans have an easier time with their legends because they can see their heroes names on the Cup.

Isles fans have an easier time with their legends?

Are they even aware of their legends? Because revenue suggests that people are barely taking notice of current players let alone past hall of fame'rs.

Heck, Isles fans don't even know where their team is currently located right now.
 

deletethis

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Mar 17, 2015
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Building on my premise that this team will never have our 3 super rookies AND John Tavares on the same team and that's why I say a big fat "pass" to the idea of acquiring him.

Tavares will have 9 NHL seasons of wear and tear on his body by the time he becomes a UFA. Each of the super rookies will have completed their sophomore seasons. Each of the super rookies this season will complete a better rookie year than Tavares had in his rookie season (when scoring was higher). Each of the super rookies is a better skater than Tavares especially at the same points in their careers. Skating is no small thing. Skating is a good predictor of whether a player can maintain performance into his 30's.

The lone point of intrigue is the idea offered up in this thread about using one of the super rookies (excepting Matthews) to acquire a bona fide number 1 defenseman then signing Tavares to replace that player. I suppose that's possible. That number 1 defenseman would have to be very special for me to risk that move. That defenseman would have to be a perennial Norris potential type of defender early in his career. Carolina ain't trading Hanifin, Florida ain't trading Ekblad.
 

phillipmike

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Oct 27, 2009
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First, it's not bypassing anyone. My position is Tavares isn't even considering us as an option, but okay let's play make believe that he's interested in coming here.

My position has nothing to do with the specific second tier of players we currently have (Rielly, Gardiner, Kadri, Andersen, etc), it's the fact that we don't have an elite D as part of our core like Chicago did/does. Tavares at his advanced age will duplicate a strength we already have and do so for at minimum 14% of our cap. When you look at where the Hawks were whilst winning Cups, they had roughly 50% of their cap on 5 key players; 1 C, 2W, and 2D. The Leafs with Tavares would use roughly 50% on four forwards and 0 D. I don't think that's an effective use of your cap especially when the biggest ticket of the four will be initially signed in the years many studies suggest he will begin to decline. If we have three stud D that are primed to break through after Tavares signs, then I think your plan is solid. I pay pretty close attention to our system, we have no such thing. So we're going to have to work with the guys we have if we're going to win. With Tavares, we can't keep those guys.

Why wouldnt he consider us? We would be on the rise and he would be looking to join a playoff team and we are his childhood team. Leafs got a meeting with Stamkos when we were the 30th place team. I dont see why Tavares wouldnt do the same when we should be infinitely better. I said time and time again that Tavares to the Leafs is a pipedream but if he is available, wants to come to the Leafs and all it takes is money (7 years 10M per - barring no crappy 2017-18 season from him) then i would sign him no problem. Still a lot of ifs but if he wants to come here then the Leafs should try to make it happen.

If the Leafs had any likelihood of adding a #1 defensemen by using cap space then it makes sense to save it but there isnt likely anyone to hit the market for that to happen and if it does that player is going to have to pick you. Its like refusing to buy a house because you think your dream house might be available down the line. Take the talent that is in front of you and deal with the rest as it comes especially if it is for an elite centre.

Leafs can add impact defensemen 4 ways;
1. Free agency (Not happening unless its someone from the KHL)
2. Waivers (Not happening)
3. Trade (Likely as we have the assets to trade in MNM for a D)
4. Draft (Very unlikely but it is ongoing because we are always drafting)

Trade is the most likely solution, followed by draft then by free agency. There might be a situation where for the next 15-20 years we may not get a number #1 defensemen (highly likely). When was the last time we had a true number 1 defensmen? Borje Salming over 30 years ago? And you are going to save cap space waiting for that piepdream?

It doesnt make sense to keep cap space for something that may never come and if it does like i said you will have to trade for it meaning salary is going out or it is coming up your system very cheap.

You just never know with Defensemen. Keith was drafted in the 2nd round; had a fantastic year with the Rockets, had 2 mediocore years in the AHL (two sub 30 point seasons) and then was a solid guy for 3-4 years for Chicago. It wasnt until 2009-2010 he became a stud (age 25-26) and a Norris contender every year. Defense takes awhile to develop.

We dont and likely wont have a great defense the next 5 years but the next best thing is being above average at the next important positions - great centremen and good goaltending. I believe Andersen can be a difference maker for the length of his deal and i think Tavares gives you that much more depth and insulation at one of the hardest positions to fill - centre.

Likely scenario is we have to go the Anaheim route; 2 maybe three good vets (Lindholm and Fowler/Vatanen) and just keep adding via the draft and trades to build up your 3, 4, 5 and 6 spots with cheap talent. Manson, Montour, Theodore, Larsson, Welinski and Pettersson.
 
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