GDT: July 1st - Free Agent Frenzy | II

y2kcanucks

Le Sex God
Aug 3, 2006
71,229
10,319
Surrey, BC
You are the only person to think this, he is a 3rd line center.

Actually I'm not. MS also agrees with the assessment that Sutter is a 4th line C, or 3rd line winger. But I'm not interested in comparing [MOD] and who agrees with who. When he was acquired I was one of the only ones who called Erik Gudbranson a bottom pairing defenseman and was proven right.

Sutter is a 3C on a very bad hockey team, perhaps.
 
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me2

Go ahead foot
Jun 28, 2002
37,903
5,595
Make my day.
Kinda like Sutter. Who's grossly overpaid for what he does but some people don't want to admit that.

At least they aren't trading away futures to build the shelter to shelter the futures they traded away to build the shelter....this time.
 

clunk

Registered User
Dec 10, 2015
11,343
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I'm gonna..
Should have just signed Postma rather than Del Zotto, Pirri cheap rather than Gagner and a cheap backup rather than Nilsson.

Burmistrov signing is alright but other than that, not a good FA for this front office.

We're rebuilding, aren't we? Hell, I don't even know anymore.
 

me2

Go ahead foot
Jun 28, 2002
37,903
5,595
Make my day.
Should have just signed Postma rather than Del Zotto, Pirri cheap rather than Gagner and a cheap backup rather than Nilsson.

Burmistrov signing is alright but other than that, not a good FA for this front office.

We're rebuilding, aren't we? Hell, I don't even know anymore.

Nilsson at least he's a chance to be something good, not a very high chance but a chance. We overpaid a lot percentage wise but at least we only overpaid by $1m a piece that could become something good. If he sucks, yah tank!
 

y2kcanucks

Le Sex God
Aug 3, 2006
71,229
10,319
Surrey, BC
Should have just signed Postma rather than Del Zotto, Pirri cheap rather than Gagner and a cheap backup rather than Nilsson.

Burmistrov signing is alright but other than that, not a good FA for this front office.

We're rebuilding, aren't we? Hell, I don't even know anymore.

I'm okay with Gagner, but in the scenario I came up with on June 28 was one where we sign Gagner and ship out Sutter.

Everyone else should have been 1 year deals.
 

clunk

Registered User
Dec 10, 2015
11,343
5,418
I'm gonna..
Nilsson at least he's a chance to be something good, not a very high chance but a chance. We overpaid a lot percentage wise but at least we only overpaid by $1m a piece that could become something good.

I like the fact that he's a 'younger' option, but I still think Markstrom would have been better suited to having a veteran backup behind him. I don't really like making him go through another situation where his job is not guaranteed. I'd just like to give the guy the reigns and see how he does.

I'm okay with Gagner, but in the scenario I came up with on June 28 was one where we sign Gagner and ship out Sutter.

Everyone else should have been 1 year deals.

Gagner is only fine if, like you said, Sutter is gone. Do you really think they'll trade Sutter though? It seems like a pipe dream at this point. I think they still see him as 'foundational' and the coach is already talking about slotting him in on the PP.
 

Sawchuk

Registered User
Nov 15, 2009
170
24
Victoria, BC
Granlund is a pure complementary player and the only thing he is good at is cherry picking goals. He doesn�t drive play, he sucks defensively and he disappears against good teams. We gave him a ton of opportunity last season and in return we got like 30ish points and he along with Sutter doesn�t create **** for his linemates.

Ignore the fact that his numbers will probably go down because of his high shooting % last season. Players at his age and experience level will only improve so much. A defensive liability, possession backhoe that can put up at max 40ish points with 2nd-1st line minutes is not a building block to a contending team.

I'm repeating myself at this point, but, his shooting percentage last season was both: not overly high compared to his peers (that is ~20+ goal scorers), and not overly high compared to his career average. Just looking at a shooting % and saying its x amount higher than the league average means nothing. Granlund has a good shot, is an above average NHL shooter and thus will likely have a higher career shooting average than the average NHL'er.

This is an issue that I have seen a lot of here lately. Though the hockey world seems to have just about fully accepted advanced at this point, these stats (much like +/- back in the day) seem to just be thrown around without any real sense for what they actually mean.

Sutter is a perfect example of this. His Corsi is bad because he gives up a bunch of shots, but if you dig deeper, his GA stats have typically been really good. Shots may be a better indicator of driving play, but not all shots are created equal. Perhaps, for whatever reason Sutter just gives up many low quality shots???

Similarly, Granlund shooting or Kyle Wellwood shooting is not the same as an average of all players shooting. Granlund has an excellent shot and scores more often then average. Wellwood has a mediocre shot, but, during his Canuck years, only took shots that were from the hashmarks in, many of which were on open nets or at the end of a deke. He also had an "anomalously high shooting %".
 

fancouver

Registered User
Jan 15, 2009
5,964
0
Vancouver
Actually I'm not. MS also agrees with the assessment that Sutter is a 4th line C, or 3rd line winger. But I'm not interested in comparing dick sizes and who agrees with who. When he was acquired I was one of the only ones who called Erik Gudbranson a bottom pairing defenseman and was proven right.

Sutter is a 3C on a very bad hockey team, perhaps.

Calling Sutter a 3C is akin to saying McDavid is currently the best player in the NHL.

Sutter hasn't produced like a top 6 on a good team or a bad team. At the moment, the top 2 enters are clearly Sedin and Horvat.
 

Rotting Corpse*

Registered User
Sep 20, 2003
60,153
3
Kelowna, BC
I'm repeating myself at this point, but, his shooting percentage last season was both: not overly high compared to his peers (that is ~20+ goal scorers), and not overly high compared to his career average. Just looking at a shooting % and saying its x amount higher than the league average means nothing. Granlund has a good shot, is an above average NHL shooter and thus will likely have a higher career shooting average than the average NHL'er.

This is an issue that I have seen a lot of here lately. Though the hockey world seems to have just about fully accepted advanced at this point, these stats (much like +/- back in the day) seem to just be thrown around without any real sense for what they actually mean.

This is true but also a strawman. Nobody was comparing his SH% to the "league average." Nobody said anything about a league average. The point made was that 15.6 is probably not sustainable, and it most likely is not. Only Stamkos manages to maintain that high of a percentage and Granlund for his career is more around 12-13%. It is maybe not a huge difference but it does matter. Bear in mind that if his "true talent" is around 13%, then he is as likely to shoot at 11% as he is at 15, and that is the difference between having 13 goals and having 19. All of which is to say that 20 goals is probably a high water mark for him, unless he can generate more shots.

I think there is a reasonable chance that last year's 19 goals ends up being his career high.

One more thing: having a reputation for a good shot and having a high shooting percentage does not correlate perfectly. An easy example is Brandon Sutter, who also has a "good shot" but is 10% for his career.

Sutter is a perfect example of this. His Corsi is bad because he gives up a bunch of shots, but if you dig deeper, his GA stats have typically been really good. Shots may be a better indicator of driving play, but not all shots are created equal. Perhaps, for whatever reason Sutter just gives up many low quality shots???

It could be, but a lot of research has been done on this topic and for the most part it has come up negative. Players who benefit from a high on-ice save% usually end up regressing. Sutter would have to be an exceptionally rare player for that to not apply to him. It is not impossible though.

The thing is though, his GA stats were not good last year. He actually gave up goals at a pretty high rate 5-on-5. One of the highest on the team, actually. He was not a -20 for nothing.

Similarly, Granlund shooting or Kyle Wellwood shooting is not the same as an average of all players shooting. Granlund has an excellent shot and scores more often then average. Wellwood has a mediocre shot, but, during his Canuck years, only took shots that were from the hashmarks in, many of which were on open nets or at the end of a deke. He also had an "anomalously high shooting %".

Kind of already addressed this above but Wellwood did not have an anomously high shooting %. Not for his career. He had one year with us where it was 19.1% but then the next year it fell to his career average of 14%. The point is not that all players are the same in this regard, but that there is a pretty clear range and that any player who is well above their career average for a single season will typcially see it fall the next season.

Granlund's sh% last year was not some ridiculous anomaly true, but I would still bet on it being closer to 12% next year than 15%.

All of which means if he manages to play the full year and get 150 shots on goal, he is probably still going to have around the same 18-20 goals.
 

arttk

Registered User
Feb 16, 2006
17,499
9,282
Los Angeles
Actually I'm not. MS also agrees with the assessment that Sutter is a 4th line C, or 3rd line winger. But I'm not interested in comparing dick sizes and who agrees with who. When he was acquired I was one of the only ones who called Erik Gudbranson a bottom pairing defenseman and was proven right.

Sutter is a 3C on a very bad hockey team, perhaps.

Sutter is a 3C on a team that hates scoring or a 3C on a team that has generational talent on the top2 lines and has plugs in the bottom 6.
 

krutovsdonut

eeyore
Sep 25, 2016
16,879
9,560
Actually I'm not. MS also agrees with the assessment that Sutter is a 4th line C, or 3rd line winger. But I'm not interested in comparing dick sizes and who agrees with who. When he was acquired I was one of the only ones who called Erik Gudbranson a bottom pairing defenseman and was proven right.

so you will be blaming the fact you were in the pool if gudbranson has a better year next season?
 

arttk

Registered User
Feb 16, 2006
17,499
9,282
Los Angeles
I'm repeating myself at this point, but, his shooting percentage last season was both: not overly high compared to his peers (that is ~20+ goal scorers), and not overly high compared to his career average. Just looking at a shooting % and saying its x amount higher than the league average means nothing. Granlund has a good shot, is an above average NHL shooter and thus will likely have a higher career shooting average than the average NHL'er.

This is an issue that I have seen a lot of here lately. Though the hockey world seems to have just about fully accepted advanced at this point, these stats (much like +/- back in the day) seem to just be thrown around without any real sense for what they actually mean.

Sutter is a perfect example of this. His Corsi is bad because he gives up a bunch of shots, but if you dig deeper, his GA stats have typically been really good. Shots may be a better indicator of driving play, but not all shots are created equal. Perhaps, for whatever reason Sutter just gives up many low quality shots???

Similarly, Granlund shooting or Kyle Wellwood shooting is not the same as an average of all players shooting. Granlund has an excellent shot and scores more often then average. Wellwood has a mediocre shot, but, during his Canuck years, only took shots that were from the hashmarks in, many of which were on open nets or at the end of a deke. He also had an "anomalously high shooting %".

I don’t want to go into this again because i’ve already did this too before.

Point is, even if we ignore shooting % and whether it will go down or not, Granlund is a flawed player that offers little to zero utility other than his ability to cherry pick. He can’t drive play, sucks on the boards, sucks defensively, sucks on the PP, offers little playmaking skills. Like I said, if the stars align he might be a 40 point player with consistent PP time and 2nd-1st line minutes and can’t be played on the bottom 6 without sheltering.

That’s not an asset that is useful to any contending team.
 

rune74

Registered User
Oct 10, 2008
9,228
552
Actually I'm not. MS also agrees with the assessment that Sutter is a 4th line C, or 3rd line winger. But I'm not interested in comparing [MOD] and who agrees with who. When he was acquired I was one of the only ones who called Erik Gudbranson a bottom pairing defenseman and was proven right.

Sutter is a 3C on a very bad hockey team, perhaps.


I don't think you have been proven right yet. (Who needs to be right so much in their life? You are on a message board.)
 

y2kcanucks

Le Sex God
Aug 3, 2006
71,229
10,319
Surrey, BC
well for one thing you said juolevi is a blown pick and a bust because he didn't make the nhl as an 18 year old.

Please show me where I called Juolevi a bust, let alone a bust because he didn't make the NHL as an 18 year old. When you can't, please stop making things up.

I don't think you have been proven right yet. (Who needs to be right so much in their life? You are on a message board.)

Well some people take a long time to give up I guess. Gudbranson could be 40 and have long since retired and some people would probably say it's too early to determine.
 

arttk

Registered User
Feb 16, 2006
17,499
9,282
Los Angeles
well for one thing you said juolevi is a blown pick and a bust because he didn't make the nhl as an 18 year old.

I think he said OJ is a blown pick because we missed out on a kid that put up 50+ pets as a 18 year old rookie. Those types of players are pretty elite and rare.
 

Canadian Canuck

Hughes4Calder
Jul 30, 2013
14,223
3,972
Kamloops BC
Hopefully Sutter is shipped out but if not he better be #4 center or #3/4 winger.

Sedin-Sedin-Eriksson
Baertschi-Horvat-Boeser
Granlund-Gagner-Goldobin
Gaunce-Burmistrov-Sutter
Rodin/Dorsett

Edler-Stetcher
Hutton-Tanev
Del Zotto-Gudbranson
Holm/Biega

Markstrom
Nilsson
 

alternate

Win the week!
Jun 9, 2006
8,180
3,084
victoria
I give the poll maker a D- because who includes a D+ option but no A-?

Voted B+. Like tut we've added a skilled playmaker to play with the plethora of skilled wingers knocking on the door. I also like that we upgraded on Sbisa and hopefully improved our powerplay. This all benefits the youth that will be on the team.

Also added a couple of cheap 1 year reclamation projects. Both are still young enough that they could stabilize into good depth pieces going forward, or could have value at the deadline. Worst case, they add depth to the organization, allowing prospects to marinate and insulating Utica a bit.

Lots of competition throughout the lineup, and improved the skill down the middle. No long term commitments and dollar figures are more or less fine. Don't understand where the confusion in direction comes from, as the pieces added either create that competition required to make bottom 6 forwards and prospects earn their place, or in Gagner and MDZ's cases, are necessary pieces to ensure our prospects have the support pieces to flourish. Or did everyone think guys like Boeser and Goldy are so good they don't require skill to play with?
 

TheWolf*

Registered User
May 3, 2015
3,813
4
I'm okay with Gagner, but in the scenario I came up with on June 28 was one where we sign Gagner and ship out Sutter.

Everyone else should have been 1 year deals.

Do you think they could trade Sutter though? He may be untradable at this stage.
 

digger18

Registered User
Feb 23, 2009
3,762
35
Williams Lake B.C.
Hopefully the additions are just gap fillers to move for assets at the deadline. I'm hoping enough young guys impress at camp enough to pressure Benning into creating some space in the lineup for them.
 

valkynax

The LEEDAR
Sponsor
May 19, 2011
10,104
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Burnaby
I gave a C+, which is sort of a small step for GM but a GIANT leap for Benning kinda thing.

Benning did not commit any of his usual monumental stupidity, he signed no huge contracts, stayed the **** away from most of the traps (Shatenkirk, Alzner, Radulov...etc). Nothing flashy, just a couple of guys of supportive roles who MAY return us some assets down the line.

In the grand scheme of thins, it's an average performance, which has exceeded most of our expectations - then again, our expectations were pathetically low.
 

valkynax

The LEEDAR
Sponsor
May 19, 2011
10,104
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Burnaby
I'm sure there will be some dumb GM who would take him. Colorado maybe? Though Benning gave him a NTC so we may need to just waive him.

Let's not kid ourselves - Benning loves Sutter, he thinks Sutter is the best thing since sliced bread.

Sutter is basically his Crosby, Benning will fight heaven and hell before Sutter is traded.
 

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