Jordan vs. James

[jcs0218]

The biggest debate in basketball history.

Who do you think is better?

Click to read more...

 

[Habsrule]

Jordan. If you watch the documentary on him on Netflix the thing that really got me were the scores of the games back then. Jordan would put up say 32 points in a game where the Bulls would score high 80’s to mid 90’s in points. The games were so much lower scoring then. Emphasis was put on defence and the game was waaaay more physical back then.

 

[Terry Yake]

i'd still say MJ but lebron has a very clear case for the GOAT title as well. simply because there's never been another player in NBA history who has put up lebron's numbers at that age and with 20 seasons under his belt. it's just incredible

 

[Albatros]

Indeed Jordan might have peaked quite a bit higher but also was done at 34 whereas James has displayed remarkable longevity at a very high level. I like his career better.

 

[tacogeoff]

Still jordan for me. Lebron has had a hell of a careeer thus far though. But he just isn’t as iconic as Jordan

 

[No Fun Shogun]

LeBron’s longevity of elite play is staggering, but Jordan’s prime years were so otherworldly that I have to still give the edge to him.

 

[CokenoPepsi]

Jordan and it isn't even really close for me either.

Lebron is obviously great and I think top 3 at worst but I just don't put much stock into the longevity argument I mean does anyone really doubt MJ wouldn't have an even more stacked trophy case had he played straight through until 2001 or 2002?

Plus it isn't like Lebron's teams are contenders at this stage of his career, it seems he just stat padding even with superstars on his teams he still missing the playoffs.

 

[mrmovies779]

Jordan.The most clutch player in history.The guy was remarkable.As a Knicks fan,he broke our hearts all the time.We could have possibly won a few championships if it wasn't for Jordan.Just couldn't beat him when it mattered most.He refused to lose

 

[Stylizer1]

Jordan was the most exciting player ever in the History of the NBA. He was unstoppable as a rookie. Lebron does have longevity on his side but what he doesn't have is a dynasty to show for. All of the greats have lead their teams to multiple championships during their careers. Lebron piggy backed is back to back with Miami and bolted when teams figured them out. That's not longevity of winning. Jordan was must see TV because of how he dominated the game no matter who he played against. Put Jordan in a 6'9, 250+lbs body and just imagine what he would have done. Lebron is definitely #2

Lebron in LA has been padding his stats. When I talk about Jordan I mainly refer to the Bulls years because his Washington days were not about being the best or winning Championships.

My main gripe with Lebron is that he was a ball hog. Because of positionless basketball of today he became a scoring point guard. The problem with that I think is it makes everyone stand around more. The offences he has been apart of were pretty bad because he had the ball in his hand too much and the rest of the team where waiting on him instead of playing a better team game. That's also why I think he didn't win as much as he could have. Never had a good NBA coach except Spolstra.

 

[Neutrinos]

If you look at their absolute best playoff run, LeBron actually has the superior numbers

LeBron's 14 games in '09 (580 minutes) vs Jordan 17 games in '91 (689 minutes)

PER
37.4 > 32

TS%
.618 > .600

OWS
3.7 > 3.2

DWS
1.1 < 1.5

WS
4.8 = 4.8

WS/48
.399 > .333

OBPM
12.8 > 10.5

DBPM
4.8 > 4.1

BPM
17.5 > 14.6

VORP
2.9 = 2.9

 

[Howe Elbows 9]

What's interesting is that both players had their best statistical playoffs during years they failed to even reach the Finals, and James actually comes out ahead by quite a bit despite playing 109 fewer minutes

LeBron 14 games (580 minutes) vs Jordan 17 games (689 minutes)

Which years are you referring to? It seems like Jordan's best year was in 1991...

 

[alko]

Where is Kobe Bryant?

 

[GKJ]

There was just so many things that go beyond numbers for Jordan, and they're difficult to describe apart from his results. There was a mystique around Jordan that just is not there for LeBron. Whether its his game, his marketability, his impact on the game, etc. Jordan transcended the sport, and sports in general. Some of it LeBron can't do because it's impossible. It was very much a 'you had to be there to see it' when it comes to Jordan. Yes, Jordan had the team around him, but he was a spectacle in his own right.

 

[Neutrinos]

Which years are you referring to? It seems like Jordan's best year was in 1991...

Yeah, I realized about an hour or so after making the post that I should've mentioned the years

You are correct! '91 for Jordan, and '09 for LeBron

 

[Neutrinos]

Where is Kobe Bryant?

Kobe's best playoff run appears to be in '09

23 games, 940 minutes
26.8 PER, .564 TS%, 3.3 OWS, 1.4 DWS, 4.7 WS, .238 WS/48. 7.4 OBPM, 1.7 DBPM, 9.1 BPM, 2.6 VORP

 

[Jussi]

Jordan would find the tiniest thing that would make it seem like LeBron had slighted him. And he would've taken it personally. Result = MJ murders LeBron on court. I forget which former player said it, Barkley or Shaq or whoever literally saying that too. Head-to-head, MJ would "kill" LeBron.

 

[Vamos Rafa]

LBJ gets discredited for playing in this era
of inflated scoring. That’s true. No one averages 40 minutes per game anymore and yet the number of 20+ppg scorers is at an all time high.

But this is in the later part of LBJ’s career, in his mid-to-late 30s. A great portion of his earlier career was during the great defensive era of the Pistons and Spurs, who would routinely hold their opponents below 80 points.

 

[Voight]

Its Jordan, no matter what Bronsexuals try to say.

Teammate argument gets way overused. FWIW Jordan never had one average over 22 PPG in the NBA finals.... LeBrons had 3. Bron also has more teammates in the NBA Top 75 than Jordan does.

 

[Voight]

Jordan and it isn't even really close for me either.

Lebron is obviously great and I think top 3 at worst but I just don't put much stock into the longevity argument I mean does anyone really doubt MJ wouldn't have an even more stacked trophy case had he played straight through until 2001 or 2002?

Plus it isn't like Lebron's teams are contenders at this stage of his career, it seems he just stat padding even with superstars on his teams he still missing the playoffs.

& even then, he still outnumbers him in pretty much everything but All-NBA teams (which is reasonable given Lebron has 20 seasons to Jordans 15)

 

[Vamos Rafa]

Its Jordan, no matter what Bronsexuals try to say.

Teammate argument gets way overused. FWIW Jordan never had one average over 22 PPG in the NBA finals.... LeBrons had 3. Bron also has more teammates in the NBA Top 75 than Jordan does.

You’re a Jordansexual then.

And a Bronphobic.

 

[Voight]

You’re a Jordansexual then.

And a Bronphobic.

Not at all. Not even close.

 

[Neutrinos]

Which years are you referring to? It seems like Jordan's best year was in 1991...

Total brainfart on my part

I saw the 17 games played in '91, and just assumed Jordan hadn't reached the Finals

 

[Neutrinos]

Finals

Jordan (35 games/1506 minutes)
43 MPG, 33.6 points, 6 rebounds, 6 assists, 1.8 steals, 0.7 blocks, 48.1 FG%, 9.1 FTA, 80.6 FT%

James (55 games/2337 minutes)
42.5 MPG, 28.4 points, 10.2 rebounds, 7.8 assists, 1.7 steals, 0.8 blocks, 48.4 FG%, 7.1 FTA, 73.1 FT%


The question being posed is "who was better?", not "who was greater?", so the outcome of games is entirely irrelevant

Jordan may very well have been better than LeBron, but it's not because his teams have a better record in the playoffs, or Finals, or because he has more awards, or scoring titles, etc...

Which player brought more on-court value to their respective teams?

Everything else need not apply

 

[Stylizer1]

Finals

Jordan (35 games/1506 minutes)
43 MPG, 33.6 points, 6 rebounds, 6 assists, 1.8 steals, 0.7 blocks, 48.1 FG%, 9.1 FTA, 80.6 FT%

James (55 games/2337 minutes)
42.5 MPG, 28.4 points, 10.2 rebounds, 7.8 assists, 1.7 steals, 0.8 blocks, 48.4 FG%, 7.1 FTA, 73.1 FT%


The question being posed is "who was better?", not "who was greater?", so the outcome of games is entirely irrelevant

Jordan may very well have been better than LeBron, but it's not because his teams have a better record in the playoffs, or Finals, or because he has more awards, or scoring titles, etc...

Which player brought more on-court value to their respective teams?

Everything else need not apply

MJ's 4th quarter scoring stats in 1988 ​

Bulls averaged 105.0 PPG in 1988 season, so let's assume 1/4 of that was scored in 4th quarter, or 26.2 points..

46% of 26.2 fourth quarter points is 12.1 points - that's a good estimate of MJ's fourth quarter scoring average in 1988.. By comparison, he averaged 9.6 points in 4th quarter of 1997 playoffs, and 9.0 points in 1998 playoffs - these stats are from nba.com's official stats.

Also, Elias Sports Bureau lists the highest 4th quarter scoring averages in the Finals (it's googleable), and Jordan's 1993, 1997, and 1998 Finals rank as 3rd, 4th, and 5th all-time, at 10.7, 10.4, and 10.3 points, respectively.

By comparison, Lebron averaged 8.1 points in 4th quarter during the 2015 playoffs with by far the most shot attempts he's ever taken in the playoffs.

From 2011 to 2014, Lebron averaged 6.3, 7.3, 7.4, and 5.8 points in the 4th quarter of playoffs, respectively.. Again, this is from nba.com's official stats..

 

[John Price]

Jordan won 6 rings with one team.

LeBron ring chased for his rings. He has one going home to Cleveland but his others were with superteams in LA and Miami which he actively sought out

In addition Jordan was part of dynasties. The Bulls won 3 straight before a hiatus. What happened after he returned? 3 straight again. Greatness.

LeBron ain' never won back to back rings.

And spare me this talk about scoring. We live in an age where scoring is extremely easy. Anyone can just jack up a 3 now and defensive rules have been seriously relaxed.

"JORDAN PLAYED IN THE 80'S. THEY DIDN'T PLAY DEFENSE IN THE 80'S."

Yes, you could also hit and block and shove and give "a little extra" after the whistle